king ubu

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Everything posted by king ubu

  1. ***** Max Roach Corner *****

    I've been digging a lot of Max Roach's music, lately. Put most of the Brown/Roach Quintet material from the great 10CD box onto my iPod (omitting some alternates and false starts). Then I just recently got around playing most of the Mosaic box, combined with the albums he did for other labels in between the Mercury albums, including "Max" (Argo), "Deeds Not Words" (Riverside), the Time album, and just this morning while commuting the great Prestige album of Sonny Rollins' heading the Roach +4 band with Wade Legge and Kenny Dorham (including the magnificient Bird-medley, which probably was the idea for the Mercury album "Roach Plays Charlie Parker", I assume?) Anyway, it's most fascinating to see how Max evolves. Also it's very interesting to read the liners in the Mosaic and compare the music, play it in chronological way, check out how Roach's solo conception changes and grows... he seems to have been one of jazz' sharpest minds back then - a very intriguing character, to me. Looking forward now to continue the trip with more of the Turrentine Bros./Julian Priester Quintet (incl. the Tommy T. album for Time adding Horace Parlan on piano, and the live album on Enja predating the last of the Mercury albums recorded in Paris). Next then what I still think are his best albums (besides the Brown/Roach material), "Freedom Now Suite" and "Percussion Bitter Suite". What a great body of work in so few years! Too bad only that Mercury had more of a project-based approach and didn't document the working quartets/quintets more thoroughly! They're clearly on fire on the 1958 Newport set! Max Roach Mosaic thread Max Roach & Tony Williams thread Max Roach recommendations thread Album: Max Roach Trio feat. Hasaan Album: Percussion Bitter Suite Max Roach health thread Max Roach health thread (2) Album: Roach/Brown Quintet: Live at the Beehive Album: Roach/Brown Quintet - The Last Concert Crappy discography (courtesy of the usual suspects) a couple of his best albums include:
  2. *****Lester Young Corner*****

    I take this from peter rh. who posted it on AAJ. I received lots of Prez recently, did a search, and found we have no Prez Corner here (I stand corrected, of course, in case...), and thought why not dig this up from the "old board". ubu -------------------------------------------------------------- Author Topic: Lester Young rounded corner mmilovan Member Member # 1357 posted April 28, 2001 04:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you find large amount of distinction between Pres and Mulligan or Desmond, as far as it is talk about sound and phrases...? Or, perhaps, something else? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mnytime Member Member # 1077 posted April 28, 2001 11:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well I believe both Mulligan and Desmond where influenced by Pres. So while Mulligan and Desomond have there own style it is rooted in Pres style I believe. As much as I enjoy Mulligan and Desmond, Pres is in his own universe in comparision to the other two. IMHO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 29, 2001 12:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I could write a 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999, 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999, 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 word post about Lester Young, use every word I know, make up about a million more, spend the rest of my life doing it, and still only scratch the surface of how Lester Young affects me. I don't think I'm alone. This (Lester) is a deep subject. mmilovan Member Member # 1357 posted April 29, 2001 01:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JSnugry, I can totally agree with your words. My idea with comparison was the one that occupied me through time and from the moment I heard both Desmond and Mulligan after I heard Pres. But, sure, whatever I write, or ask, it is not deep enough. All we can do is not to listen to music... just soul. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 29, 2001 02:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, man, you're on time. (That's good!) Desmond and Mulligan were DEEPLY influenced by Prez. Them I can talk about. I love them both. Lester, though, unlike all but less than a handfull of other players, gets me in a spot that I can't really explain. It's a very personal thing I suppose... Lester deserves a thread of his own. Good call! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 29, 2001 08:10 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone hear a lot of Trumbauer in Pres? I have been hearing it lately; been listening to Tram and of course Pres said he was influenced by Tram's recordings near the beginning. I find it ironic that Pres admits to being influenced by a few white players, and that scores of white players were deeply fascinated with Pres. Kindof a nice round circular corner. I am with you folk: Pres is a world of his own, an intelligence and feeling that was unique and a swing that was so damned infectious. . . it is like an incurable disease! I feel about Pres the way Aric feels about Mobley, but like JS I am hard put to put words to the feelings! (Not a problem Aric has!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John L Member Member # 123 posted April 29, 2001 12:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No music gives me greater pleasure or affects me deeper than that of Lester Young. I am glad to see that I am not alone. Trumbauer in Pres? Absolutely! Pres always cited Trumbauer as a primary influence. It is interesting to listen to the Bix and Tram and KC6 sessions on Commodore back-to-back. The entire feel is very similar. There is even a common track: "Way Down Yonder in New Orleans" Sudhalter tries to make the case that Bud Freeman was also a major influence on Lester Young. I guess that there might be some similarity in the phrasing on the up-tempo numbers. But I don't know if I really buy the overall argument. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mmilovan Member Member # 1357 posted April 29, 2001 12:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lon, good point. Black musician heavily influenced by two - all of them were white musicians - Frank Trumbauer and Jimmy Dorsey. I've spend some time listening to Trumbauers solos - yes there is a little bit in Pres' later solo work, but... Pres has unique concept of swing, and melodic conception close to jazz (I've read that Trumbauer *programmed* the way he would improvise to given tune...). And the silence. That is the most important use of silence from Armstrong and Beiderbecke to his years. Also, later, he has innovative intervals and dissonant licks which he invented to attracts listeners attention - he is always new, there is no repetition in the way he deals with the given material. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mmilovan Member Member # 1357 posted April 29, 2001 01:11 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let me add something about dissonances: you can hear them as a device throughout Pres' career, but the most recognizable one came from jam session ("Honeysuckle Rose") at B. Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert 1938 - that chromatic notes in second chorus. Later, the perfect use of dissonances you can hear in "Lady Be Good" solo with the Basie band a year or so later. Maybe, Hershel Evans illness affected Pres, and he might have been in a position to "cut" Chu Berry, who knows. Critics often emphasized that "dissonant" point in his work. But it was not isolated part of his soloing, it was organic whole of his idiom, and the way he spoke to us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 29, 2001 01:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mmilovan- I hear you. The "dissonances", false fingerings, etc. were pure communication! As far as the Tram influence goes, I think first and foremost it was an influence of musical "attitude" - allowing true masculine tenderness and TOTAL vulnerability to be a part of the emotional repretoire of jazz-a very courageous step, in my opinion, and one that was always met with an implicit derision by many. It's also a testament to the true depth of Prez that he influenced black players as profoundly as he did white ones. Not to open the "race issue", because it's not about race per se as much as it is about the culture of the times. But Illinois Jacquet, Dexter Gordon, Wardell Gray, EVERYBODY was totally enthralled by this cat. Bird-JEEZ-early Bird's got Prez written on it's nads! And the whole pre-rock R&B tenor style is TOTALLY rooted in Prez! It's intesting to see how his influence manifested itself in different cultures of his time. Suffice it to say it was omnipresent! In fact, a friend of mine once said that if Bird was "Jazz Jesus" then Lester was his "John the Baptist". (No offense meant-he didnt say it disrespectfully nor do I-just a contextual setting of the dynamic, nothing more!). I even believe that Joe Henderson's explorations of saxophone overtones using "false fingerings" is directly rooted in his admitted admiration of Lester as an early influence! Obviously, i CAN talk about Lester as a "historical figure"! But the music itself still eludes verbalization and probably always will, thankfully. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Harold_Z Member Member # 1142 posted April 29, 2001 01:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hear a lot of Bud Freeman in Pres and it has to do with the use of triplets and 8th notes more so than tone. I think Tram's sound, and cool,in control, groove was the main influence there, but I hear a definite similarity to Bud's phrasing. It's interesting in that Pres credited Tram as an influence (I mean..he oughta know!) but not Bud, although supposedly Pres would always ask for Bud records when visiting someone's home and listening to records. My own thoughts on this make me wonder if perhaps Bud and perhaps Jimmy Dorsey, who were both often recorded, often heard players, were influences via osmosis... players heard them so much that they just absorbed certain elements into their own playing. [This message has been edited by Harold_Z (edited April 29, 2001).] JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 29, 2001 02:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Harold_Z: My own thoughts on this make me wonder if perhaps Bud and perhaps Jimmy Dorsey, who were both often recorded, often heard players, were influences via osmosis... players heard them so much that they just absorbed certain elements into their own playing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I definitely agree. There is also the flip side-that in the early days of the music, there were undoubtedly "local" players who influenced people in their immediate community but were never heard by the public at large, but who influenced the people who were. Also, in the early days, there had not been the stylistic evolutions that inevitably ocurred later on, so there was sort of a "common vibe" in the air, so to speak. All I know for sure is that the beauty remains! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Jerant Member Member # 212 posted April 29, 2001 06:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jimmy Dorsey, in my view, appears to have been a huge influence on early jazz saxophonists. Charlie Parker copped to it, but I think many more were intrigued with his playing. The guy should be heralded more for this than for pop hits. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 29, 2001 06:26 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bud may have been an influence. I don't know; don't quite hear it as clearly as Harold does. Yes, Pres's influence was beyond race. He was one fo those few who were just out there and so many stood back and said "wow" and shook their head, then shook their booty. Definitely he was a huge influence on Bird, and through Bird so many. Possibly one of the top three influential players in the genre? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JSngry Member Member # 1611 posted April 29, 2001 07:44 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arguably the most fundamentally influential except Armstrong (Louis, that is ). I think w/Jimmy Dorsey, it was not as much a question of stylistic influence as it was admiration for his instrumental command. The guy had MONSTER chops! All musicians respect that in a player, no matter what the musical output may be! The Freeman influence on Pres has been much debated. Pres himself denied it & I am inclined to agree. But here again is a situation where lack of influence should not correlate to a lack of respect or a lack of fondness. I think that Prez HAD to hear in both Tram & Bud kindred spirits, players who were finding a personal voice that went somewhat against then prevailing trends. I think that respect and admiration of a fellow musician is more meaningful than the copping of specific elements! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lon Armstrong Member Member # 137 posted April 30, 2001 07:35 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do think that the Tram influence was one of sound or tone as well. This may be a key link between Bud and Pres perhaps; they both have that light mellow sound, that C-Melody on tenor sound. . . . [This message has been edited by Lon Armstrong (edited April 30, 2001).] Mnytime Member Member # 1077 posted April 30, 2001 01:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A lot of people get into the whole Bean vs Pres thing but for me I love both equally. I never understand how people can not enjoy the greatness of both equally? Both of them have equally influneced a great many musicians worldwide. John L Member Member # 123 posted April 30, 2001 02:11 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mnytime: I think that the so-called "Bean vs. Pres thing" reflects the fact that the two of them dominated the swing era on tenor, yet provided completely different approaches to the instrument and improvisation. I don't think many fans of swing tenor reject one in favor of the other. Which of the two might affect you the deepest is a personal thing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  3. At least it's still good for one thing then ... still waiting for a shipping notification for my Saturday order.
  4. Elvin Jones Mosaic

    Amazingly, Scott just replied--and they'll send me a good booklet! Outstanding!!! (I've already printed Daniel's pics, nicely fitted together ... I'll have use for them and the faulty booklet, quite possibly, offering it with burns to a dear friend ... perfectly legal here to share copies with personal acquaintances--but not with online "friends")
  5. Elvin Jones Mosaic

    I should have ... i have that routine of checking all the new stuff upon arrival ... and I did listen to the first part of the box right after getting it, as all that music was brand new to me!
  6. Elvin Jones Mosaic

    I'm really puzzled by this - I've gotten a few replacement (scratched discs, faulty booklets) over the years, never any trouble getting them ... I have no clue why I didn't ask for a new EJ booklet back in 2006, when I bought the box!
  7. Elvin Jones Mosaic

    Thanks to y'all! :tup: Regarding "Mr. Jones", well, they needed a few more minutes to beef it up to LP length, I guess. Btw, this must be one of my favorite Grossman moments: About to finish my listen to discs 5-8 - terrific music, both on the studio dates (those last ones that weren't released until a few year later, are really, really good!) as well as at the Lighthouse - but I really tend to favor Liebman for musicality ... better tone, more interesting delivery, generally. His ballad feature (from the Lighthouse recording) is great as well:
  8. Elvin Jones Mosaic

    I've had access to A3 scanners at work for a while (and still do) - so if I can return the favor ...
  9. Elvin Jones Mosaic

    Wow, that would be amazing! There are full scans on Discogs, but too small to read ... I shot Mosaic an e-mail, too, but it's been OOP so long (I've got the bill in my box, September 2006 - I guess that's when it went OOP).
  10. Elvin Jones Mosaic

    Hm, taking this off the shelves to check out Grossman again ... and not sure if I ever asked for a replacement booklet, as mine runs from pages 3-14 only and misses the beginning of the liner notes and the entire discography part ... that sucks, but I guess it's a bit late now. If anyone with a correct booklet could scan pp 1/2 and 15/16 for me, that would be terrific!
  11. Just got to disc 5 and was wondering why I'm hearing "I've Got You under My Skin" first - guess all's okay with my set then, just a stupid mistake? -- @JSngry I get your point, but it's a non-issue - the set is perfect as it is! Plus, I'm not sure it actually contains any full set of music anyway. The run-down: March 27: 5 tunes March 26: 6 tunes March 28: 7 tunes March 29: 6 tunes (TelArc CD) October 25/26: 7 tunes October 27-29: 8 tunes (A&M double album) + 5 tunes (Artist House album) + 1 tune October 30: 5 tunes October 31: 2 tunes Assuming they did at least 2 sets per night, that doesn't quite represent any full night, except possibly for Oct 27-29, if many (two thirds) of the tunes come from, say, the 28th. Alas, there's no full discography provided with setlists - and I'd assume, since Thompson was the original recording engineer (and the reissue producer for Mosaic, obviously), they'd have had access to these, if they still existed? Either way, wonderful, wonderful set! :tup: :tup: :tup:
  12. The cynical side of me thought about money laundering for a quick second this morning ... and now it's considering asking for a refund as the item is still listed as "shipped" and not as "cancelled" and the big company will not be able to double check if I already got a refund or not
  13. My order was cancelled several hours after I'd received a shipping confirmation--not sure how "reputable" that makes 'em. Of course no notification/communication/apology (ordered via aUK). Regarding majors, Warner is still around, too - but I think they pulled out of jazz entirely? But I tend to agree. What sorry-ass morons ... why the hell did Feldman ever think he ought to work for them? Did they buy his soul? -- Correction: *at the same time* I got the shipping notification (triggered automatically by A, I understand - how "reputable" does that merikin deal making make? but we all know about that, right? Gotta buy me some beans now), I also got this: - Thank you for your recent order with us for Thelonious Monk - Palo Alto. Unfortunately the release date of this item has been postponed by the record label and there is currently no new release date. We are very sorry for the inconvenience that this has caused. Sadly, we have been left with no choice but to reluctantly refund this sale as we are unable to send this item to you for the foreseeable future. - So, some communication of sorts ... but they still list the disc on their site.
  14. Thanks for sharing that @Mark13
  15. Eddie Gale Blue Notes

    I enjoy both of them very much. The first probably has the edge in mood, to me it really feels of a piece, finding a perfect balance between all the stuff packed into it (soul jazz, free, soul, the voices, the politics ...), the second is a bit wilder and maybe even better in making it all work - but the mood on fhe first is just so striking! I've got the Japanese reissue of "Ghetto Music" and that Euro vresion of "Black Rhythm Happening" - the later definitely not an edition to really look out for, just a flimsy 2-fold booklet that's blank inside and fails to even provide a recording date ... I seem to remember that series to be French, but I may be tricked by memory? There was a Mouzon reissue (Mind Transplant) and a couple of others from roughly the first half of the seventies in the batch, but I think none but the Gale held enough interest for me then, can't remember any others than it and the Mouzon, but likely some Bobbi Humphrey or Gene Harris in there, too? - Ha, found it, that's the batch I meant - not part of the Rare Groove series, I think: NAT ADDERLEY - GEORGE DUKE / WALTER BOOKER / ROY McCURDY / AIRTO MOREIRA / MAYUTO OCTAVIO / KING ERRISON : SOUL OF THE BIBLE - (1972 - Ex CAPITOL) RONNIE FOSTER - ERNEST HAYES / DAVID SPINOZZA / JOHN TROPEA : SWEET REVIVAL - (1972) EDDIE GALE feat. JIMMY LYONS / ROLAND ALEXANDER / RUSSELL LYLE / JUDAH SAMUEL / HENRY PEARSON / ELVIN JONES / JOHN ROBINSON / JOANN GALE STEVENS... : BLACK RHYTHM HAPPENING - (1969) GRANT GREEN feat. MARVIN STAMM / IRVING 'MARKY' MARKOWITZ / HAROLD VICK / PHIL BODNER / RICHARD TEE / CORNELL DUPREE / GORDON EDWARDS / GRADY TATE... : THE FINAL COME-DOWN - (1971) GENE HARRIS feat. AL AARONS / GEORGE BOHANNON / MIKE ALTSCHUL / FRED JACKSON / LEE RITENOUR / JOHN ROWIN / CHUCK RAINEY / KENNETH RICE... : NEXUS - (1975) STANLEY JORDAN - WAYNE BRATHWAITE / PETER ERSKINE / SAMMY FIGUEROA / ONAJE ALLAN GUMBS / OMAR HAKIM / CHARNETT MOFFETT / BUGSY MOORE / AL Di MEOLA : MAGIC TOUCH - (1984) ALPHONSE MOUZON - TOMMY BOLIN / JAY GRAYDON / LEE RITENOUR / JERRY PETERS / HENRY DAVIS : MIND TRANSPLANT - (1974) (I kept trying with the Green for several years but was never convinced enough to get it.)
  16. Thanks! "Disk time limit" is usually not a concept relevant to Mosaic, didn't even consider that. Either way, I've started listening by now, and obviously the music is great (I've had the A&M and Telarc CDs, as well as a Euro boot of teh Artist House, so I knew what to expect).
  17. I've been enjoying the CD for several months by now (at jazzmessenger.com it was available ... in April I think? these days time seems to fly and to stand still at the same time, so don't pin me down on it) ... it's pretty good, I think, though obviously not offering any substantial new insight into the Blakey/Jazz Messengers world. No one expected that, right? After all, there are so many albums - he and JOS must be the artists BN documented most thoroughly as leaders around that time. Anyway, I've long loved the live recording by this band (one of my three or four favorite JM discs, next to the Silver/JM, "Moanin'", and "Free for All", probably), and while it's pretty clear why after the wonderful live recording this studio date was shelved, it's still wonderful to have it now!
  18. Is there anything in the booklet about why they re-arranged track order (not going by chronology)? Couldn't find it by skipping through, haven't had time yet to really sit down and read it all.
  19. John Coltrane: Graz, 1962

    Part 2 is available now ... wanted to pick it up at the Swiss distributor's (which is in walking distance from my place), but they were closed that day last week ... hope to get it by Friday. I'm pretty impressed by what stubborn ol' Uehlinger has achieved with his new ezz-imprint, and I'm glad to be able to get the stuff in my hood (that distributor is specialised in classical music, and it's the only remaining "shop" I try and visit every month or so). https://www.jazzmessengers.com/en/83218/john-coltrane/my-favorite-things-graz-1962?search_query=john+coltrane+graz&results=4
  20. Shipping delays

    Yup. But with Brexit we might get all nostaltgic soon, when UK orders - with an added 0 - will be 75£ take 2 months
  21. Shipping delays

    Well, I got some US orders from end of March and May 1st (bandcamp day) in early July ... Switzerland is being served by overseas shipping by US Post (do they still exist?), and it seems a container with mail is leaving NYC every few weeks or every month - so shipping delays of 6-10 weeks are the norm (as they used to be when I ordered from Mosaic in the late 90s ... but that cost 7.50$, no matter how large and heavy the box ... I remember odering 5 or 6 Mosaics and a couple dozen CDs from TrueBlue once or twice a year back then ... and then waiting for 1-3 months, and feeling like x-mas when it finally arrived!) Japan is doing air mail again - a couple of Discogs orders of mine shipped last week, no clue how long that will take. Other orders with SAL method are still stuck (my choice usually with CDJapan - I guess they're flooded with requests these days but as long as I don't know the exact raise in shipping/total cost, I'll not give them a go, as in the worst case this could mean 30$ taxes/fees added onto a 50$ order, which would be totally out of proportion). Within Europe (other than France in March/April) from my experience, things worked (and work) well. But it seems to depend on both country of origin and destination (I've had Discogs and other orders from Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Slowenia, Hungary, Lithuania and UK delivered within 1-2 weeks, so just a bit slower than usual ... and France is no problem by now, either).
  22. Eddie Gale (1941-2020)

    Thanks so much for sharing this! Sad news, time to relisten to the two Blue Note albums - never got around finding any other recordings of his (well yes, "AfroFire", but I didn't connect with it back then, and stores allowing you to check out stuff have since died around here).
  23. Not Two but Twenty Orchestra

    Agree on "Intensegrity", it's excellent indeed @steve reynolds (proper @ function dysfunctional on dumbphone?) ... and trust me I keep overspending on music, buying from musicians, but also small stores via discogs etc, and often paying a bit more than minimum when using bandcamp
  24. Not Two but Twenty Orchestra

    ... well, a 3D printer oughta do the trick, I suppose? That 8 minute piece with all of them playing seems a bit weird ... so these were various small group sets of a like-minded bunch of musicians, and at the end they just did a short jam and now they're calling it an orchestra? Either way, I bet much of the music is great, but honeslty I'm not spending too much time with all the fantastic Barry Guy-centred boxes NotTwo has produced ... too much music, and to me mostly live music, to be experienced in what we used to call "concerts" in earlier times--that is if anyone remembers them days.
  25. Nina Simone - Fodder on My Wings

    That's Sylvin Marc (often written Sylvain) of Gilson/Malagasy fame on bass? Interesting, will definitely get this!