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erhodes

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Posts posted by erhodes

  1. 21 hours ago, JSngry said:

    But after a few more listens... I'm thinking that we should all chuck the narrative go back and check out John Gilmore on his early NYC days (if not a bit earlier)...if nothing else for the technical things  he was already virtuostic with before 1965. You can't overlook Ayler, of course, but Gilmore was so damn systematic about how he did it...he knew how to get there with or without the rapture, and you know, these things don't play themselves, these tenors don't.

    Interesting...

    We had a lively thread on this topic back in 2007.

    Which particular pre-'65 Gilmore recordings/solos would you cite in this regard?  And how comfortable are you with the dating of Gilmore's work with Sun Ra circa '62-'64 when you begin to look closely at this?

     

  2. As part of some Max Roach listening I've been doing recently, I came across two recordings of the 1960 band with Stanley and Tommy Turrentine in the front line:  "As Long As Your're Living" (Enja 4074) and "Max Roach - Again" (Affinity AFF 32).  I'm not a Stanley Turrentine enthusiast but those recordings are very interesting and Stanley's work bears interesting comparison with the George Coleman work that immediately preceded it in Max's band, not so much for the sound but for the fluidity and the confidence with which Stanley handled Max's up tempo pieces.

    Also...

    There is a documentary on the Pittsburgh jazz scene called "We Knew What We Had - The Greatest Jazz Story Never Told".  It's been on PBS.  It's extraordinarily revealing unless you already know that Kenny Clarke, Ahmad Jamal, George Bensen and the Turrentine brothers all came out of Pittsburgh.  And that's the beginning of a very long list.

    The film doesn't dwell on the Turrentines but it covers them and there is pointed commentary on the different courses of their careers.  The Tommy Turrentine piece was of particular interest to me since he appeared on Archie Shepp's "Mama Too Tight" and Shepp compared him to Fats Navarro in the liner notes.

    There is indeed more here than meets a first listening of "That's Where It's At" or "Hustlin".  Somewhat to Jim's point...and then to some other points...

     

  3. 42 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

    Thanks, Ed.

    Would be curious who was with Frank Smith on those dates. 

    A group of violin players!  At least that's what he had on July 29.

    It was maybe a half dozen guys, all playing "avant garde" violin together in sort of like a chorus behind his sax.  I don't remember any of them taking any solos.  And they may not have played all the time.  They may have played one or more group improvisations when Frank wasn't playing.  But it was as much a visual spectacle as anything else.  Unlike anything else in any of the other sets that I witnessed.

    I don't remember anything about a bass player or a drummer, though he may have had those instruments as well.

  4. Trane played the Village Theatre twice in 1966, once as part of the Lovebeast concert series (his concert as on August 12) and once on a double bill with Ornette (December 26).  I was at both concerts as well as the July 29th set that Ornette headlined.

    The Heritage Auctions flyer would appear to reference the Lovebeast date and has nothing to do with the later concert.  The two shouldn't be conflated.

    Love Beast Festival Poster.jpg

    As for the personnel, I'm fairly certain that there was no trumpet player at the December concert.  The Reference goes two ways on this.  The discography...which mentions an audience tape that the authors had not heard at the time of publication...lists Salgato.  The chronology, which includes reviews by John S. Wilson and Elizabeth van der Mei (though Wilson apparently didn't stay for Trane's set) does not.  It's been a very long time but I would remember if some unknown trumpet player had been with Trane that evening.  It' didn't happen.  The Reference doesn't list a tambura  player either.  And van der Mei lists and comments on all of the personnel including Omar Ali and Algie De Witt.

    The Marion Brown piece is interesting.  The ESP recording is listed here.  It's not impossible that the recording session took place on the same day as the concert but the coincidence raises questions for me, as does the idea that Jeanne Lee and Ran Blake did thirteen songs in their set.  I don't remember that..unless maybe it was a medley...and I don't remember seeing either Dave Burrell or Grachan with Marion, though the 55 years may be interceding here.  It would be interesting if ESP recorded...or was supposed to record...Marion's set.

    The matter of Trane tapes that still haven't seen the light of day will not be news to most of the folks on this board.  Ben Young played what seemed to be previously unheard Trane on the WPI Jazz History Database thing he did on Trane's birthday.  Presumably...but not assuredly...a second version of "Equinox" from the Sutherland (March-April 1961).

    The "late" Trane thing I am holding out for is a the February 6, 1966 set at Lincoln center when Albert Ayler sat in.  Decades ago I was communicating regularly with a major Cecil Taylor collector..the precursor to Richard Shapiro and Rick Lopez...who told me that when he was hanging out at the Studio Rivbea someone approached him with a tape of "late" Trane where Albert's presence was clearly audible.  They guy wanted too much money...this was on the street...and my friend passed.  But he is very knowledgeable and he's sure about what he heard.

    Calling Bertrand...

  5. 5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    Never saw that before though I did receive a video transfer of the group with a Japanese big band, must be this same recording, once gave serious thought to using it on a BFT.

    5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    Never saw that before though I did receive a video transfer of the group with a Japanese big band, must be this same recording, once gave serious thought to using it on a BFT.

    5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    Never saw that before though I did receive a video transfer of the group with a Japanese big band, must be this same recording, once gave serious thought to using it on a BFT.

    7 hours ago, mikeweil said:
    5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    Never saw that before though I did receive a video transfer of the group with a Japanese big band, must be this same recording, once gave serious thought to using it on a BFT.

      R-15766371-1597415167-5983.jpeg.jpg

    Video of the entire January 11, 1961 set.  Six tracks total including the two tracks with the Nobuo Hara Sharps and Flats big band.

  6. This is from the Priestley Mingus biography, p. 110.

    "Ted Curson even reported that Mingus not only went down to the Five Spot to hear Coleman, as it seems did every other musician in New York, but sat in on piano; he also took Curson and Dolphy along in his car.  After a while he said, 'Do you think you can play like that?'  Of course, we could.  I'd just got my picket trumpet. Eric said OK."

    And here's a quote in the same book attributed to Mingus, pp. 109-110.

    "Now aside from the fact that I doubt he can even play a C scale...in tune, the fact remains that his notes and lines are so fresh.  So hen [disc jockey] Symphony Sid played his record, it made everything else he was playing, even my own record that he played, sound terrible.  I'm not saying everybody's going to have to play like Coleman.  But they're going to have to stop playing Bird."

    And this is Mingus quoted in the liner notes to "Mingus Dynasty", which was recorded in 1959.

    "Recently a young man came to New York with a plastic horn who critics are saying will cause a new era in jazz.  He's doing atonal things that I've heard other musicians do, but he talks with his horn in the profound and primitive way Bird did."

    What Mingus expressed concerns about was not Ornette but that "lesser" musicians would hide behind Ornette the way they had previously hidden behind Bird.  The "Mingus Dynasty" notes quote Mingus at some length on this topic, including a brief conversation between Mingus and George Russell where Russell seems to agree with him.

  7. Recorded in 1979.  Some duplication with what has already been listed...

    Ahmed Abdullah                    Life’s Force

    Muhal Richard Abrams          Spihumonesty

    Air                                           Air Lore

    Fred Anderson                        Dark Day + Live In Verona

                                                    The Missing Link

    Billy Bang                              Distinction Without A Difference

                                                    Duo

                                                    Sweet Space

    Anthony Braxton                    Solo (Milano), Vols, 1 and 2

                                                    Performance 9/1/79

                                                    With Robert Schumann String Quartet

                                                    Seven Compositions 1978 (seems to have been recorded in 1979)

    Dave Burrell                           Winward Passages (1979)

    John Carter                             Variations

                                                    Suite of Early American Folkpieces for Solo Clarinet

                                                    Tandem 2

    Jerome Cooper                       For the People

    Andrew Cyrille                       Nuba

    Anthony Davis                        Hidden Voices

    Jack DeJohnette                      Special Edition

                                                    In Europe

    Chico Freeman                       No Time Left

    Beaver Harris                         Live at Nyon

                                                    360 Aeutopia

                                                    Safe

                                                    Beautiful Africa

                                                    Negcaumongus

    Jay Hoggard                            Days Like These

    Joseph Jarman                         The Magic Triangle

                                                    Black Paladins

    Oliver Lake                             Zaki

    George Lewis                         Homage to Charles Parker

                                                    Jila - Save ! Mon. - The Imaginary Suite

    M’Boom                                 M’Boom (Columbia)

    Joe McPhee                            Old Eyes and Mysteries

    Roscoe Mitchell                     Sketches From Bamboo

    Jameel Moondoc                    Evening of the Blue Men

    David Murray                         Sweet Lovely

    Sunny Murray                         Aigu-Grave

                                                    Live at Moers Festival

                                                    African Magic

    James Newton                        Portraits

    Old and New Dreams             Old and New Dreams (ECM)

    Don Pullen                              Magic Triangle (w/ Joseph Jarman, Don Moye)

    Don Pullen/George Adams    All That Funk

                                                   Don’t Lose Control

                                                    More Funk

    Sam Rivers                             Contrasts

    Max Roach/Archie Shepp      The Long March, Parts 1 and 2

    Max Roach/Anthony Braxton One In Two – Two In One

    Max Roach/Cecil Taylor        Historic Concerts

    Woody Shaw                          For Sure!

    Archie Shepp                          Live at the Totem, Vols. 1 and 2

                                                    Bird Fire

                                                    Tray of Silver

                                                    Attica Blues Big Band Live at the Palais des Glaces

    Leo Smith                               Solo Music: Akhreanvention

                                                    Spirit Catcher

                                                    Budding of A Rose

                                                    Touch the Earth

    Horace Tapscott                     Live at I.U.C.C. (Pan-Afrikan Peoples Arkestra)

                                                    Lighthouse, Vols. 1 and 2

    Henry Threadgill                    X-75 Volume 1

    McCoy Tyner                         Horizon

    Mal Waldron                          Mingus Lives

                                                    Jazzbuhne Berlin '79

  8. 21 hours ago, JSngry said:

    The CD does not duplicate the original LP. The extra Tolliver & Moncur cuts can be found on this LP:

    R-1210680-1520668887-9536.jpeg.jpg

    R-1210680-1520668887-8847.jpeg.jpg

    The original LP is:

    https://www.discogs.com/Various-The-New-Wave-In-Jazz/master/199879

    • John Coltrane Nature Boy 8:58
    • Albert Ayler Holy Ghost 7:21
    • Grachan Moncur Blue Free 6:43
    • Archie Shepp Hambone 11:41

    Are you aware of any additional Ayler recordings from this concert? If so, please share!

    The Ayler discography at http://www.ayler.co.uk/html/sessionography.html lists an unissued version of "Saints" from this date.  That's the "ballad" track issued as "Spirits" on Spiritual Unity and as "Saints" on Spirits/Witches and Devils.

     

    I'd like to know if Shepp played anything else besides "Hambone" and, ultimately, whether or not all or part of the Sun Ra set turns out to have been recorded.  Baraka's notes and some of the subsequent commentary suggest that the answer viz. the Ra material is no but when the Tolliver and Moncur tracks were issued on the lp it got my attention.

  9. 8 hours ago, felser said:

    Tyner and Elvin were on the outs at that point.  Live in Seattle has a very disconcerting vibe, and Om is a nightmare.  And this is Trane's most beloved work done in that atmosphere.  And you can't unhear it once you hear it.

    No.  On all counts.

    That band...those bands...were some of the most exciting and wonderful music I ever heard.  I saw them live...the Meditations sextet with Elvin, Rasheid and Pharoah...at the Jazz Workshop in Boston a month or two after the Seattle date (but before Meditations was recorded).  It literally changed my life...very much for the better.

    I will concede that one person's nightmare is another person's dream.  But that's all I will concede.  I won't let this comment go unanswered.  This is the most exciting development in recorded jazz in quite some time.  And Trane & Pharoah is one of the most important and compelling pairings in the history of jazz.

  10. On 7/15/2021 at 2:36 AM, Rabshakeh said:

    I'm listening to Contours right now. 

    I am a non musician, but does anyone know of any analysis, ideally available online, that can explain in very summary terms what Rivers is doing musically in his solos here, and why it sounds so different to Ornette, Eric Dolphy or Coltrane? 

    Not exactly what you're asking for but perhaps of some interest...

    In 1959 Rivers was introduced to a precocious 13-year-old student of Alan Dawson by the name of Tony Williams, who later recounted in a DownBeat interview that “Leroy Fallana, a piano player, asked me to join his band. I was about 14 or 15. He hired me, Sam Rivers, and a bass player named Jimmy Towles.” The quartet played at the brief first incarnation of Club 47 (now Club Passim), where Dawson had been performing with a trio. This led Rivers to a reformulated quartet with Galper, Williams, and bassist Henry Grimes.

    Rivers and Williams were members of the Boston Improvisational Ensemble, which the latter described in a DownBeat interview as “doing things in the afternoons where they had cards and numbers and you’re playing to time, watches, and big clocks; playing behind poetry, all kinds of stuff.” The pair also played together in a quintet led by trombonist Gene DiStasio that included pianist Mike Nock.

    In the interview cited above, Galper also stated that “Under Sam’s tutelage, we were the first to play free on standard tunes,” and in a 2007 interview at WKCR, he recounted that “‘time, no changes’ is something Rivers had worked out in the 50′s — calling out, for example, ‘E Anything’ on the bandstand meant a tonal center of E; this would be the only basis for improvisation.” Keep in mind that all this was going on here in Boston at roughly the same time that Eric Dolphy, Ornette Coleman, and Cecil Taylor were breaking similar ground in New York.

    Here's the original link.  I haven't checked to see if it is still live.

     

  11. On 7/2/2021 at 10:57 AM, mjzee said:

    The only time I saw Mingus was at the Newport Jazz Festival in NY in 1972 at Philharmonic Hall.  It was a double bill with Ornette Coleman (quartet + orchestra) performing Skies of America, which I thought was complete dreck.  Mingus was a welcome relief, full of energy and a lot of fun.  He was obviously energized playing to his hometown audience on his big comeback.  I don't remember who played with Mingus, but it was just his band, no orchestral backing (also note that this was not the concert that resulted in the Charles Mingus and Friends in Concert album).  I imagine the evening was sponsored by Columbia, since both Skies of America and Let My Children Hear Music were current albums at the time.  

    Here's a contemporaneous review of the concert: https://www.nytimes.com/1972/07/05/archives/colemans-skies-of-america-in-debut.html

    Dreck is in the ear of the behearer.  I was at that concert as well.  I thought the orchestral "juxtaposition" with Ornette's quartet worked out well enough, though I wouldn't have had as much to say as that review.  but Dewey Redman played his ass off.  I just about jumped out of my seat.

    The most interesting thing I remember about the Mingus set was the pianist, John Foster.  That's the only time I ever saw or heard him.  Didn't know his name until I looked it up years later in various Mingus discographies.  I remember that Foster's glasses seem damaged and he had repaired one of the side pieces with a band-aid or some light colored tape.  I remember too that he seemed a bit disheveled.  But his piano playing was outstanding.  At least as strong as anything that Don Pullen did with the band.  At a distance of almost half a century I would venture that it was the best piano playing I had heard with Mingus since Jaki Byard (though I never saw Byard live, with or without Mingus).

    But the really interesting thing is that, at a certain point, Foster got up from the piano and paced back and forth across the stage in a manner reminiscent of what Mingus might do when he was excited or agitated.  Foster seemed agitated.  Then Mingus got up and started pacing too almost as if he felt obliged to do that.  So at one point they were both pacing on the stage.

    Nothing happened from there but Foster was the most interesting figure on the stage...musically and in his stage persona...other than Mingus.

  12. On 7/8/2021 at 11:02 AM, clifford_thornton said:

    saw it upon US release in Austin many years ago -- the Alamo Drafthouse had "Music Mondays," which were either $2 or $5, and this was one of their screenings. Pretty fantastic although I agree that Mary Maria got short shrift. Somebody needs to write a book on jazz in Scandinavia with a bent on American influences like Ayler, Shepp, Taylor, Cherry, Pettiford...

    When you saw it, do you remember if it had English subtitles or were there Scandinavian subtitles (I'm not clear on what specific language it is) per the release in this thread?  I was glad to have access to it and I did not find the subtitles to be a distraction but I admit to being at a loss with the non-English dialogue, particularly from Ayler's European girlfriend.  I got the impression that her commentary might have shed some light that was not coming from the other sources.

    Overall I was glad to see the film and I am glad that it was made but I think the Lee Morgan documentary by the same director is a much better film.

  13. 6 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

    was the full session ever released? Would love to hear this.

    I don't believe it was.  Most of what is on that site has not been released and is not even on the "circuit".  But the discographical details vs. this commercial release are clear.

  14. 20 hours ago, romualdo said:

    Here's Ornette's discography taken from the current online Lord over the period 1979 to 2010 - there are 30 entries

    hope you can open it (it's in "Open Document Text" format - opens with microsoft - the only way I was able to load this under 100kb of data - Microsoft text/document & PDF were too large)

    The 100kb limit can be unbelievably frustrating at times

    Ornette Coleman Lord 79-2010.odt

    Many thanks for this.  It's at least a start.

    3 hours ago, John L said:

    The Lord discography doesn't include many of the known live dates.   We need a good comprehensive Ornette discography.

    Which was what I was thinking when I started this thread.  David Wild did a good job through the 70's but it seems no one has tackled it on that level since.  KH1958's description of the Caravan of Dreams and the material that might derive just from there (and then) suggest that there are whole worlds of Ornette that have yet to be properly documented.

  15. The Jazz Icons Series 2 box has all three of the videos from the Spring 1964 tour:

    Oslo, April 12

    Stockholm, April 13 (rehearsal)

    Leige, April 19

    The Oslo set is on a Shanachie VHS (ha!) commercial issue.  I mention it because it includes a little more of the introductory stage chatter than the JI dvd.  Mingus jokingly threatens to sue the house because he slipped slightly as he entered the stage area.

    The JI single dvd from the series...Charles Minugs / Live In '64...can be had by itself.  I just saw three copies on Discogs.

  16. "Recorded live on March, 23rd 1974, Grand Auditorium Studio 104 - Maison de la Radio. Excerpts from the full performance."

    Indeed.

    If you check the Archie Shepp Unissued Live Recordings site for 1974 you will see ten tracks for the March 23, 1974 concert totaling just under 2 1/2 hours.  The new issue contains three tracks and the issued version of "Things Have Got to Change" (24:29) is significantly shorter than either versions listed on the site (40:55 and 33:38).

    Quite apart from any vinyl vs. digital issues, this doesn't seem right to me.

    Just sayin...

  17. 19 hours ago, kh1958 said:

    I know that a lot more was recorded at the Caravan of Dreams than was released. A version of Skies of America with the Fort Worth Symphony was performed and was announced but never released. And they recorded a number of live Prime Time sets. Also, the set he played there with the Charles Moffett Family Band was filmed and perhaps recorded. He and Prime Time also performed live music there accompanying a play; that might have been recorded, it should have been because it was really good.

    I don't believe his output diminished in the sense of number of public performances. I would suspect he might have played the most concerts of his career in his post-1970s decades. His willingness to release that music seems to have diminished. 

     

    Also, Of Human Feelings was released in the 1980s, but recorded in 1979.

    This is insightful and helpful.

    Many thanks.

  18. 1 hour ago, kh1958 said:

    These are the post-1970s Ornette Coleman recordings that I have:

    Prime Design Time Design

    Opening the Caravan of Dreams

    In All Languages

    Song X (with Pat Metheny)

    Naked Lunch soundtrack (with Howard Shore)

    Hidden Man

    Prime Time Live in Berlin (bootleg)

    Sound Grammar

    Sound Museum

    Tone Dialing

    Colors (with Joachim Kuhn)

    Virgin Beauty

     

    Thank you for this.  I'll compare it with the lists I have.  Without checking this seems like a bit more than what I could account for.

    Is it your sense that his output diminished in the 80's and later?  I mean...there are 11 items documented for 1965 alone, 6 for 1966, 2-4 for every year after that up to 1971, 14 in 1971 and 5 each in '72 and '73.  Is there nothing like that for the later years?

    1 hour ago, JSngry said:

    My hunch is that there was a buttload of recording going on at Prince Street, and that it's probably a mess to sort out.

    Yeah...

    I've seen some third party sets are supposed to originate from there.  But is anyone on this the way that Wild was on the earlier stuff?  Do you know of anyone who is trying to sort it out?

  19. Just curious about what people are using these days as a discographical reference for Ornette Coleman.

    I have the old David Wild discography which is good through the end of the 70's, though David has told me that he has newer information that he hasn't gotten around to publishing.  I also have the Litweiler book but the discography after 1979 is pretty threadbare.  I'm showing 11 entries for the entire 80's and 1 London date in August 1991.  Nothing after that.  Plus Litweiler doesn't really do unissued material that is known to exist.

    Jazzdisco.org has 9 entries after the August '91 date that take you through 2005.  But I'm on record that this site is at the very least unreliable, though I use it as a starting point if I have nothing else.  I don't find the J-Disc site to be very useful as I have some of the same criticisms that have been recently leveled at Lord in the "Monetizing" thread.  And I don't subscribe to Lord.though I take note that the print version stops at 1987.

    Thoughts...and questions...

    Is Ornette's discography really that light after the 70's or is it just that no one has really covered it?

    Who, if anyone, is covering it?

    Has anyone attempted to sort out the discographical details on the '65 material that has circulated since Wild such as Bremen or Berlin and the seeming conflict with some of the Stockholm dates?

    Is there no unissued material from the 80's and 90's?

    Stuff like that...

    Any thoughts, ruminations, leads, references would be welcome.

  20. Buddy Montgomery's time with Davis is documented on pages 186-189 or the Coltrane Reference.  There were apparently gigs in Chicago, Los Angeles, Oakland and San Francisco just prior to the Spring 196- European tour that folks are familiar with.  There are references to the possibility of a tape from the March 4, 1960 San Francisco Civic Auditorium gig on pages 189 and 575.

    This is being discussed on the Wynton Kelly/Cecil Payne thread where Medjuck reported that he captured the Clyp audio .  I got it too.  Easy enough to record with Audacity.  It's a needle drop with a fair amount of surface noise but the tenor solo on "So What" is as long or longer than anything from the tour.  OTOH, Wynton Kelly's piano solo was either missed or cut out from "So What" and the second piece is severely truncated.

    Still...an outstanding find.

  21. In the early 1970's, before the word "disco" became associated with TSOP, the hustle and leisure suits, there was a dance club scene in New York that heavily featured records from bands like Mandrill, War, Mother Night, Cymande, BT Express...and the Counts.  "What's Up Front That Counts" got a fair amount play in those clubs.  You would hear "Rhythm Changes" in the mix but the title cut was the kind of thing that got played later in the night for the hard core crowd when things got heated up.

    Props to Mose.  Glad he's still around.  If you communicate with him again, tell him that some of his constituents from back in the day are still alive and kickin', too.

  22. The link to the full jazz archive is here.

    My problem with Past Daily is that the archive is not in any kind of order, alphabetical or whatever.  You can run searches on it or page through it.  I've done the latter and it takes awhile...the pages come up slowly. The search function on the site is...clunky.

    The Rollins-Roach-Merrit Stockholm 1966 date I mentioned in another thread is on this site.  I considered that to be a real find.  I've not seen that date anywhere else.

    There's also an interesting date by the Blue Notes from 1964 at Rondebosch Town Hall in SA.

    The Blakey San Remo date is on youtube.  There are, I believe, several versions including at least one with a lengthy introduction (in Italian) by the mc.

    The Booker Ervin date is out there on the circuit.  No need to settle for iffy MP3's.

    Past Daily is not what I would call a go-to site but it's worth the occasional perusal if you have the time and the inclination and you've run out of other options for whatever you're looking for.

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