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david weiss

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Posts posted by david weiss

  1. 4 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    I take it you have no direct or indirect knowledge if a cassette exists for this one:

    Date: 11/14/1965
    Location: Left Bank Jazz Society - Madison Club, Baltimore, MD
    Label: [no known recording]

    Freddie Hubbard (ldr), Joe Henderson (ts), Freddie Hubbard (t), John Hicks (p), Arthur Harper (b), Clifford Jarvis (d)

     

    I imagine there are more, no time to go thru the rest of that gig-ography.

    I have not come across this one....

    9 hours ago, JSngry said:

    What indications do you have that Joe worked a lot as a leader in the 60s?

    A lot probably doesn't accurately describe the situation....

    We know he led gigs at Slugs and the Left Bank at the very least in the '60s....

  2. 1 hour ago, bertrand said:

    They have been where they have always been. It's just a matter of a label licensing it and paying all the costs related to releasing it, It's short though so it probably has to be paired with something else...

    I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And, it's great. Some of it came out on LP as Jazz Patterns (just like some Freddie Hubbard from the Both/And was bootlegged on LP as well). Ironically, it's from the same tour as the Live at the Lighthouse Joe Henderson recordings. Joe was on Milestone at the time which is now Concord. 

    As for the rest, I don't think a consultant to a label is going to get you the clearance you need.

    No, but he has to respond to me so I know that I have to then ask for clearance from someone who actually works at the label, either the president or someone below. Bypassing the consultant would have been preferable, but apparently I did not have the choice. They may trust his opinion, but if he blocks anyone from trying to get clearance he is essentially depriving them of a possible income source. I really just need a name of the person to whom one would request the clearance.

    Good that the other Monterey tracks are not lost, as some had speculated in the past. I guess they are at Stanford. Why all three did not come out on that compilation is a mystery.

    I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And

    This other guy may have a different night or different tunes, kind of like the Lee Morgan situation. I want to get it transferred anyway for preservation purposes and to know what he has. Releasability discussions are far down the road. Concord needs to get new management first.

    Who was Joe Henderson signed with in 1983?

     

    Why 1983?

    18 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

    I’m pretty sure I mentioned it more than once on the board (and in detail) — but here’s one such instance...

    I’m glad I cut-n-pasted the info directly into that old thread, because it appears the source (link)  I found it at 7 years ago... is no longer active. (I also vaguely remember later finding something with track-times maybe? - or else I’m just dreaming I did).

    Just for good measure, here it is again...

    ===============

    17 September 1966

    Elvin Jones-Joe Henderson Quartet

    Performer(s): Jones, Elvin (drums); Henderson, Joe (tenor saxophone); Moore, Don (bass); Hutcherson, Bobby (vibraphone)

     
    Inner Urge
    Isotope
    Shade of Jade
     
    ===============

    I looked at the thread. I did not know this was slated for release at some point. Didn't the Monterey series just die at a certain point? Good idea to pair it with the 1994 trio date. It's a shame that never came out.... Hopefully, it will see the light of day eventually....

  3. 1 hour ago, bertrand said:

    It has come up several times that we are wondering what happened to the other tracks from Monterey. If they have been located, great, but that does not guarantee a release any time soon. No one wants to be Palo-Altoed, especially when THAT dreaded tape-hoarding, not a fuck-about-jazz giving label is involved. Hint: they are named after a brand of grape jelly.

    I am not sworn to secrecy on my end having no ties to any record label, so I can say that the same guy who had some Lee Both/And tapes also approached me about some Joe Henderson from the Both/And. I offered to help him get it transferred (ie give him bread) to see if it overlaps with already released material, but we are not there yet. He would probably have to pitch it to the aforementioned label, which has right of first refusal but will neither be interested nor give clearance to another label to release it, even for a fee.

    How anything ever gets done at the big labels is indeed a question I often ponder. When someone out of the goodness of their heart does all the legwork to make a self-proclaimed gatekeeper aware of a recording and the individual cannot be bothered to respond after three months to inform the person that the label is not interested, thus precluding the possibility of obtaining clearance to propose it to another label, that is tape-hoarding. And just plain rude.

    Bertrand.

     

     

     

    They have been where they have always been. It's just a matter of a label licensing it and paying all the costs related to releasing it, It's short though so it probably has to be paired with something else...

    I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And, it's great. Some of it came out on LP as Jazz Patterns (just like some Freddie Hubbard from the Both/And was bootlegged on LP as well). Ironically, it's from the same tour as the Live at the Lighthouse Joe Henderson recordings. Joe was on Milestone at the time which is now Concord. 

    As for the rest, I don't think a consultant to a label is going to get you the clearance you need.

    1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

    Thanks Michael! I *am* totally aware of this, and somewhere around here is a thread that I myself created ~10-12 years ago, where I came up with the 3 tune names, and the length of time of the performance too, iirc. I also do have the one track (which is pretty fantastic), and I’m *thrilled* to hear that the whole thing is being considered for release. Thank you again!

    Interesting.... Wonder if I chimed in then.... I've heard the whole thing and it's great. There was speculation of pairing this with another show and I don't think that notion is dead yet. Things move slowly....

  4. 1 hour ago, felser said:

    Just think of all the mid-60's to /early 70's Blakey that must be out there with all those fascinating lineups.  The Morgan is tempting, will probably be a price-point issue for me, and I am probably leaning "no".  "Live at the Lighthouse" was the fist jazz album I ever bought, so the BN configuration has sentimental appeal for me, so I would probably keep it anywasy, making the new set even more redundant for me.   

    Plenty of Blakey

  5. 48 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

    Of that, I had little doubt.  That's one of the big reasons -- despite the repetition of tracks -- that I'd be temped if the price were half-decent.

    I'd pay considerably more (per disc) for a good document of Lee's band with Billy Harper, but Benny Maupin's tenor work around this time was nothing to sneeze at one bit.

    It's a shame that almost no NEW live Joe Henderson has ever surfaced from the mid-to-late 60's, other than those two discs from the mid 90's (the ones with Joe and the Wynton Kelly trio from the Left Bank in '68).

    I'd really give my eye's teeth for some more Joe Henderson, contemporaneous to either his stint with BN or Milestone even.

    This is a no win situation for me. There is Joe Henderson out there but I can't talk about it except to say that sometimes I wonder how anything ever gets done at these bigger labels. There are also clearance issues on some of the options, no one wants to be Palo Altoed (thanks to whoever coined the term here).

    Here is a clue....

    Are you familiar with this? 3 tracks, 35 minutes or so total. This is the only track that has seen the light of day,...

  6. 42 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

    Well I think that is partially related to no one making tape anymore correct? So the only way to record is if you find NOS not to mention the inherent issues with the tape machines themselves. Honestly I always thought given the possibilities presented with a DAW, recording to tape was akin to spinning your own yarn. Yeah, you can do it but its really not worth it.

    When digital took over the world, tape manufacturers did stop making tape and I remember having to scramble to clean out someone's stock to finish a recording. People are making tape again and there are, of course, some specialty shops that purport to do it better then ever. On a recent project, we had to buy 24 reels of tape because we were mixing down from analog 4 track recordings and we wanted to keep the whole process analog. I believe it was special ordered but there are options now. Everyone who did analog had to reboot and are still catching up. Pressing plants are overwhelmed and are behind on orders trying to catch up and will soon be overwhelmed again with everyone putting in orders for the next record store day madness...

  7. 7 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    Wasn't it supposed to be established that the Fresh Sounds was a different location than the Lighthouse, so different performances than what was recorded by BN? Then I don't think you want to pitch your copy of that release.

    If it turns out that the Fresh Sounds recording will be duplicated in this too-much-of-a-good-thing release, that's even more reason to ignore this one. 

    The Fresh Sound stuff has definitely been confirmed as coming from the Both/And and there is a few more tracks from these shows that were not on the Fresh Sound release. 

    7 hours ago, sidewinder said:

    Good as the sound of the 3CD Blue Note Box was/is, things have moved on since then. This set will be a great temptation when it sails into view - and I suspect not just to me. 

    The Fresh Sound material sounds to me, sonically, like a total different location to the ‘Lighhouse’ - presumably the ‘Both/And’.

    With regard to the vinyl version - I hope/wish they would use London-based Gearbox in the same manner as for that Universal Tubby Hayes set. I guess it would likely be RTI or Optimal though.

    I thought the sound on the 3 CD set was good but I always disagreed with Belden about the sound. He favored a more clean, treble heavy sound and I liked a little more warmth and body. It was his baby. This is just a personal opinion but I think the sound on this upcoming set is much better. I believe the vinyl was done by RTI.

    5 hours ago, JSngry said:

    How well did that set sell? Was it in print for a long-enough time to reach its audience?

    Lee/Lighthouse is great music, but Trane/Vanguard or Miles/Plugged Nickel it's not, at least in terms of stuff that is going to have deep implications 50+ years later. Deep pleasure, sure. But pleasure alone is not why you do a "full on" 12 LP/8 CD set of mostly unreleased material, is it?

    I don't know...part of me thinks I will want this and will get it, part of me thinks I will want it but leave it alone until a used copy comes along, part of me thinks that even if I do want it and do get it, I'll never listen to it at all, or not more than once or twice, and still another part of me thinks that it's too far in the rear-view mirror now for me to think too much about it at all.

    Now, the Lee/Billy band...too bad there's not this much of THAT...but how much of it could there be, do we have Lee's itinerary on file any where?

    I don't know numbers of course but my impression was that the 3 CD set did well and was in print for a decent amount of time. 

    I agree that this music might not be at a Miles/Plugged Nickel or Coltrane/Vanguard level of importance but perhaps it is the closet thing we still have documented?

    It is a great slice of the era. One of the best working bands of that era in the middle of an extended run clicking on all cylinders. It's exciting stuff.

    I'm not the one that makes decisions about what to release but I think it is worthy of release and is important stuff in it's own right. 

    It's also well recorded and can really bring you right into the room. I like that personally plus I'm happy with more Lee Morgan.

    It is also remarkably consistent at a high level throughout. 

  8. 3 hours ago, JSngry said:

    It's discouraging to think that the market for this music is such that the consumer needs to pay more and get less in order for the cash to add up right for the seller.

    That's what it comes down to, right? In order to make X-amount of dollars, to get my money back (more or less), this is what's going to do it most efficiently.

    I can tell you this, though - I am not going back to LP-only for new releases. That makes no sense to me, in any way. If that means networking for digital copies, that's what that means.

    Record store day is the culprit perhaps. You can sell a ton of product at an inflated price as a limited edition box set on record store day. It's a money maker for a business that doesn't have a ton of these kind of opportunities anymore. Some of them are pretty cool boxes though, I guess if they can make their money this way and then sell all the same music in a reasonably priced CD box set or download, then I guess it's OK. Let the vinyl nuts throw their money around if it keeps the CD box sets at a reasonable price point. None of these have been vinyl only releases, correct? There has always been a CD or digital release as well, no? I have a huge vinyl collection but this stuff is beyond me....

    10 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

    Cassette recordings can be really variable and in odd ways. I have used Jim's and Allen's help on a transfer of a recording of the Percy France quartet, giving me indications of what key they were playing in and what key was likely. Right in the middle of a section of tunes that needed a 1/2 step correction they played "A Train" in C, and this track needed no adjustment. How can that be, I thought. (And eventually I remembered I had another recording and verified that they do sound exactly the same.)

    And there was no doubt that the batteries on this recording device were not new or mostly fresh, as the first tune was a blues in F# which Allen told me they'd never play in that key, so it was 1/2 step off right at jump ... and the final two tracks were full steps off, with Percy sounding like Mickey Mouse on his last stage announcement, and Castle Rock sounding like he was playing an alto.

    Cassettes are a different animal completely....

    4 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

    And the vinyl initially listed for several dollars more. (Often the vinyl editions of any of these releases are much more expensive--my favorite point of comparison is the Brad Mehldau box-set that came out a few years back, which listed for about $30 on CD and $129 on vinyl.) So glad the cheaper CD version with more material was available!  Like Jsngry I grew up with vinyl, nothing against it (well, except for what it's doing in terms of disrupting potential additional content for CD releases, as discussed in this thread) and still occasionally buy new or used LPs, but almost always only if there's no CD counterpart available.  

    For new releases, I prefer to get the CD over the LP. It most likely was recorded in a digital format and if not, mixed or mastered in a digital format so I don't need the vinyl for this.

    Very few new recordings are analog all the way. I know one label specializes in this now but I think it's a subscription series or something. Hey, if it works for enough people, more power to them but unless it's something very special, I'm not biting....

  9. 5 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

    I’d be tempted by a price point of about $80 or so ($10/disc) — or maybe even $88 ($11/disc)

    But a full Mosaic-like price of $16/disc (i.e. $128 total)... would be a big “no” for me, I’m afraid.

    I’ve had the 3 CD set for 20-ish years, and I’m not sure I really need all that much more, though I do love Lee’s playing in his later years.

    A set with minimalistic packaging wouldn’t bother me, and a corresponding lower price would seem appropriate.

    I remember a discussion about this but don't remember the details unfortunately. Apparently I don't pay attention all the time and this was an area that didn't concern my work. I do remember them saying the CD box was going to have a very reasonable price point. Certainly not a Mosaic like price. Somehow $75 is sticking in my head but don't take that to the bank....

    4 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

    I fear if the "Jazz Detective" is involved thats not an option. 

    I believe this will be Blue Note's decision. 

  10. 10 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

    Not really proving your point at all. The Christian Scott didn’t have any edits. It was just selection for that would fit on one cd/2 LP. It’s also unedited on Apple Music. So it wasn’t a matter of “streamlining”. It was making a product for the format it was in. 
     

    i also don’t take issue with different formats having different tracks though I can see why you would. I bought the LP of the Dexter Gordon and decided I didn’t need the full set since I could go to Apple Music if I wanted to hear it.

     

    anyway, do you know if the studio tracks never saw release due to the reverb? Full disclosure it may be addressed in the book but I only went through the first section. 

    Not really my point but OK. I was saying the artist made the record he wanted to make, chose the tracks he wanted to use, omitted the ones he didn't and put it in the order he wanted to put it in. He also made the whole concert available to download for those who wanted it hear it that way as well but the point is, he made the record he wanted to make first and that was what was made commercially available. That was the album that was sent out for review and to radio stations etc etc. He made the best album he thought he could make from this material and that's the point. You might not agree about how people go about it or might not agree how a label goes about presenting archival material in what they think is the best way possible. It seems like you are even bitching about the big booklets somewhere along the way. The point with the release in question is that the artist was involved and signed off on the material so the label adhered to the artist's wishes. 

    So, different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't buy an album or CD (especially a CD) if it didn't have all the tracks that are available on it. That's absurd to me or as egregious as anything else discussed here. I'm glad one could stream the other tracks so they are somewhere but if I want to listen to an album or CD, I want to listen to the whole thing.

    I am not aware of the Vara session ever being considered for commercial release. If a record label was involved with recording this, then I would have to assume they wanted the reverb. It wasn't the norm back then to record something and then shop it to labels for release. I don't think sonny was signed to any label in 1967. His last recording was for Impulse in 1966 and he didn't record again until 1972. I haven't read the liner notes either. 

     

     

  11. 19 minutes ago, JSngry said:

    Just to float all possibilities, there is always the possibility of fluctating current affecting the machine speed, up to an including the possibility of the machine being battery-powered. If these are not the OG tapes but first-generation copies, who knows for sure? All kinds of weirdmicro-geeky possibilities here...including improperly stored tape gradually stretching over time. Never rewind before storing, we all know now, but not sure that was common wisdom50+ years ago all over the world?

     

    Sure, anything is possible....

    If a radio station recorded this, I would have more trust in how those folks handled tapes and tape machines then most people around now.... That was their world....

    But yes, with the passage of time, anything is possible....

  12. 19 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

    Sonny himself endorsed this release. Was he made aware of the edits? If yes, was he informed about why the edits were made?

    Is anybody from Resonance going to inform Sonny about the wrong speed issue?   

    I wasn't the go-between with Sonny unfortunately so I can't say for sure. 

    Sonny did not catch the speed issue but as said often now, it wasn't that off....

    He heard the tracks before the edits and afterwards and approved the tracks. 

    I do not know if he was made aware of the specific edits but he definitely heard the before and after. 

    I believe some of the edits were contemplated because of something Sonny said about a certain track or a certain solo. 

     

  13. On 12/19/2020 at 4:46 AM, king ubu said:

    Uhm, nothing really - I was expressing the fact that when I heard about the upcoming release many moons ago (expectation management is something Resonance really does work hard on ... and apologies, but there as well I do not always think their choices are swell), I was *hoping* this might now be a radio archival version to replace the bootleg with.

    As for the speed fixes, I'm only the messenger there, but feel free to behead me, no problem ;) 

    Interesting, many thanks!

    This Rollins set, though, is not one that ought to be marketed for casual listeners - it doesn't have good enough sound for that (with the exception of the studio session kicking things off!), and it may be too challenging musically for many, as well ... but hey, from the business side it's sales (but there's an underlying business rationale there, too, isn't there? Will people continue buying Resonance product if they feel this is "bad" because the sound quality keeps them from enjoying it?)

    The "industry wide mandate" is bogus b-s in my opinion - and it may be related to the industry being in deep sh*t: they're unwilling/unable to cope with different formats, see the ups and downs for each etc.

    And since it seems you did suggest the edits (after all, considering circumstances, they had to be done and thus had to be done by someone!): chapeau! Pretending for a sec that I agree they're a necessity: they're well-done - that's for sure. And I'm serious now! :tup 

    I don't know Frank Jochemsen really past being cc'ed on a couple of e-mails perhaps but he is the source for this material I believe. No one has ever said that Arnhem was a radio broadcast so it makes me wonder if there was a potential better source out there. I'm told the material was on tape reels but nothing more then that. They were not pulled from a radio archive as far as I know (this of course is the best source for a sound upgrade). I guess I could e-mail the guy and double check. 

    As for the speed, I'm just saying if both tunes were recorded back to back and are on the same tape reel (they were) then there would not be speed issues between the two tunes. That might be a tuning issue with the musicians. There is no piano so things can float a little here and there. You are not talking about a big leap here....

    I don't think there is really a debate as to who this music is marketed for. A record label is trying to sell records. They made a huge investment here and need to recoup so they can make more records. The goal is to sell records and hopefully turn the casual listener onto some great music. I don't know how you draw a line here. The hype might be more then we can bear but that's the world we live in unfortunately. Honestly, I'd rather the new or casual listener hear the Arnhem material then the Vara session.

    I think the philosophy with these labels is that they don't want material available on one format and not on the other. I think this has proven more problematic in the long run and they simply will not do it. This came up recently on another project I was working on for another label and some alternate takes did not see the light of day because they wanted to keep it a single LP and not make it a 2 record set. The LP is again dictating the market. I'm not saying I agree with any of this but this is what is happening.

    I did not suggest the edits. Like a hitman, I don't chose who to hit, I just do the best job I can with what I'm assigned to do. 

     

    On 12/19/2020 at 1:15 PM, Fer Urbina said:

    Re: what @king ubu and @david weiss were discussing about contents having to be equivalent regardless of format, FWIW, the latest Elemental release, Barney Wilen with Tete Montoliu is 11-tracks on double CD, 6 on single vinyl. Incidentally, I don't know whether Zev Feldman is involved in Elemental any more, but he's been in the past.

    F

    Elemental is an independent label and can do what they want of course. I would think this is an unwise decision and would piss people off in both camps.

    If you buy the LP, you are missing tracks so why would you buy the LP? Would one get a download card so they get to listen to the whole session at least. The bigger labels don't want to touch this scenario. Where is the thread about how fucked up this is? 

    I believe Feldman is still involved in some projects with this label. 

    28 minutes ago, JSngry said:

    I just heard it as a little "off". You know, you hear a note or a fingering and your mind says, hmmm, that's not how that happens, not on my horn, Listening to a lot of bootlegs of this vintage and earlier, it's something you just get a feel for and then learn to shrug off. Checking it out on the keyboard, yes, that was triggered by this thread.

    If you could get somebody to do the Graz trio tapes, withe trio with Max where Sonny literally sounds like an alto, and put those out at proper pitch, hey, redemption is yours@ :g

    I wonder if it's because it's your instrument. I'm used to saxophone tuning being all over the place so perhaps I just adjusted as always :g

    I can definitely hear it in the Graz tapes. Is it also on the Max Roach set? Freddie's voice seems a little high when he tells the audience to kiss his....

    On 12/19/2020 at 2:33 PM, bertrand said:

    I am sure it is not a Universal Mandate and only a Resonance thing.

     

     

    NOT BY MILES DAVIS!!! Max Roach even says so at Newport in 1958, it is in the Mosaic Box. 

     

    It's not only a Resonance thing and I've told you that privately already. 

    Four and Tune Up are not by Miles but they are still registered to Miles by BMI. A record label can't change that, that's a court case or the threat of one at least and the principles are long gone. It's unfortunate but Vinson's family would have to make a claim, prove it and go from there... This is certainly not the only case like this and it can't be undone except by starting the process mentioned above...

  14. On 12/19/2020 at 1:49 AM, jcam_44 said:

    Yes. It starts around 2:30 if memory serves, The bass solo is sonically all over the place. Anyone can hear it. It’s obvious. 
     

    I don’t think it’s an industry thing. The recent Christian Scott live album from March-ish gave you the full set as a download and the cd and LP were truncated. But that’s on Ropeadope which is an independent, if big 3 or is it 2 now I don’t know, require something different it would stand to reason why they are out of touch. 

    I'll listen....

    Independents wouldn't have to adhere to any mandate really unless their distributors needed to have things a certain way. Ropeadope (rightfully) thinks outside the box anyways. I did an album for them a few years back.

    Your Christian Scott examples actually proves my point. They made their edits to make their album the way they wanted it and presumably made it a more streamlined (and to them a better) listening experience. That's the way we all make records whether you know about it or not. In the instant gratification era, it's always good to have more content to keep interest in the artist, hence the download only complete set. It probably had a different matrix or ID number as well. That would be a good idea for this project as well and I can ask though I usually don't have much say in these matters. I will tell you that one speed bump for this is that the artist did not want some of those tracks released either. 

  15. On 12/17/2020 at 11:03 AM, jcam_44 said:

    I'm not really upset with incomplete tracks being left out. It just seems they spent more effort on the book then the music. Its a bit annoying in the book how they say they unearthed these recordings, then say purists will notice the incomplete tracks that were on bootlegs. If a boot exists you didn't "unearth" it. They also don't mention the edits to the music. Resonance does a good job for the most part, love the Grant Green releases from a few years ago but this is a disappointment. I also feel like the "countless hours spent fine tuning the sound" were misused. 

    They do indicate they took these straight from the reels which indicates the boots were taken from these reels or they used the boots as a source (maybe the bootleg sound was better if the tapes were degraded).

    Well, the two other recordings on this box are new to everyone, correct? So they "unearthed" something at least and then this would be about grammar semantics?

    On 12/17/2020 at 0:03 PM, bertrand said:

    I am happy to see that many of you are starting to pick up on some issues that have concerned me for a while. There is far too much effort spent on the packaging, that is one of my concerns.

    The Grant Green could have included some tracks with Kenny Burrell, as anyone who watches the YouTube video from Maison de la Radio can tell (whoever posted that one is my hero). I am sure they left them off to avoid paying KB. Or maybe they did not fit on the vinyl, who knows.

    Resonance pays the artists who appear on their recordings. Sometimes the problem might come from the other end. 

    On 12/19/2020 at 7:45 PM, JSngry said:

    I'm reminded of one of the most cruelly humorously sadistic musical experiences of my life, an afternoon corporate cocktail party whre I showed up ready to drink it out of the way and got there early so I could. And did. Long story short, the entire first set was spent listening to a guitarist and bassist easily a quarter tone aprt from each other, and both of them defiantly fending off the dirty looks of the other by waving their electronic tuners at each other to show that look motherfucker, I'M in tune, I ain't moving. The bandleader was too unwilling to stop the set, so the break waw a free for all of datadicking. I was definitely not drunk enough (but not for lack of trying, so I jsut said, "don't you cats use your ears?" And then headed for the bar, because, drunk enough was not yet happening.

    Point just being, my 90s era cheap Casio, whatever it's tuned to, has this one sounding just a teence sharp to A, and a buttload flat to Bb, which is in line with what it feels like to me, away from my horn. Of course, "correct intonation" has never been a particularly avid pursuit for me, so there's always that. Still...that's what my ears tell me, not jsut my cheap Casio.

    For that matter, my Tonette tells me that too, and that was my VERY first instrument.

    Did you hear it as a half step flat when you first listened to the music or were you already influenced by this thread? I have to admit, I gave this session a more passive listen because no one was choosing which tunes to include or asking me to look for for edit points but with one passive listen, I didn't hear it as flat enough to go to the piano and check. I guess this one is on me as much as anyone. Even though my work for them is more piecemeal, being asked to do specific tasks instead of an overall job where I'm involved with everything sound-wise, I could have caught this but it didn't sound too flat to my naked ear and 30 cents or so is not that flat so I'm going to cling to that....

  16. On 12/17/2020 at 7:01 PM, bresna said:

    I think it's pretty funny that the purported "Jazz detective" missed all those edits for his CD release. I get making those cuts for the LP, but inexcusable for the CD.

    I'm not sure what you mean by missed all those edits. The label he works for made the edits and he was aware. 

    On 12/17/2020 at 9:51 AM, jcam_44 said:

    This is my complaint with the release as well. I assumed it was a better source also. But more than that, they could have taken the effort to clean up the audio. It just came across as a very lazy release but they put so much hype behind it.

     

    This is unacceptable in my opinion. The cd release should have had the complete set. If they wanted to appease the vinyl-crowd give them a download card. My guess is they didn’t want to make two masters. I wonder if anyone has compared the vinyl to cd to see if they have different masterings. 

    The LP was mastered by Kevin Grey and the CD was mastered by George Klabin and Fran Gala. George Klabin and Fran Gala have a sound restoration credit on the LP as well. Klabin is the head of Resonance Records. He owned a studio in New York in the '70s called Sound Ideas where the Charles Tolliver Big Band recorded their albums among others. He also did some live recording as a student and some of these have been the source material for some very good Resonance releases. 

  17. 2 hours ago, JSngry said:

    Back to Rollins...the Arnhem music is spooky...every tune sounds like it could be any of the other ones, and at any given moment is...this is some kind of metaphysical plane-shifting or something...since it's the one unedited cut on the Resonance set, "Three Little Words" just...where the fuck is that after it gets going? Sure here, but also here. And here. And...it reminds me of the quantum photography thing where they showed that one thing can be in two places at the same time. So we know that it is possible, and here the music is doing that.

    Even crazier still is the full bootleg CD #1 where even after the tag of "Four" becomes "Old Devil Moon", the feeling that it's still the tag of "Four" never goes away, even though it never overtly is. How do they do that? Threads of continuity get planted in the subconscious? How do you keep open enough to let that happen? Even with high-level improvisation, this doesn't happen, not this, this is the kind of thing that gets attributed to Celibidache, but this is not some conductor bending an orchestra/time to his will, this is "just" a pickup band playing tunes. And yet it happens. Sure as I'm sitting here(?), it happens here/there.

    Consumer, buy this set. It's a marvelous object and marvelous music, geek-quibblings aside. But also, know that there is more to the story than is told here. Proceed accordingly if you know that such things matter to you.

    I would think that ONLY a casual fan would pay $80 for a record (at least one that's not an auction/rarity).

    After listening to a lot of Sonny from this period, I called George Cables and asked, how did you follow this, how did you know when to come in and join him because it seemed like every tune started with a solo cadenza where he play at least 5 different tunes before settling on something. He said it was a challenge and also said Sonny would play tunes in different keys a lot as well. I listened to a Left Bank concert with Albert Daily and Louis Hayes (from 1969 I believe) and Albert would jump in here and there and Sonny would go elsewhere until they finally settled in on something. You can hear Sonny saying things here and there as well but most of it is inaudible though I thought I heard a let's go at some point. It was incredible of course but there were certainly moments of uncertainty. Albert was way on top of it and it still wouldn't be quite enough. You can here a lot of that here as well and from the start. On Love Walked In from the Arnhem show, he breaks into Four mid solo and based on other shows from this period, fully expected the band to follow him and they don't catch it at all. He plays Four next instead. They catch some of these things later on in the program though. 

  18. 2 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

    I get you were involved in this release and appreciate your opinion but why did they not correct issues with the sound, left/right channel shifting specifically track 2. It was jarring. And easily corrected by taking the audible channel over to the other side. I’m presuming they weren’t cutting tape to make the edits. I would agree a person hearing this for the first time might not hear the edits but I doubt casual listeners are buying this. Maybe they do still buy physical media but I was under the impression based on the “death of the cd” it’s really just the hardcore fan. And no causal fan is paying $80 for a record I hope. 
     

     Why does the music have to be the same on all formats? It’s it a Resonance Rule?

    "left/right channel shifting specifically track 2" Track 2 of CD 1 Four or something else?

    We were not cutting tape, all edits were done digitally. 

    My work on these projects is usually pretty specific. I usually vet the material and if they want edits, will explore the possibilities for them. I'm in New York and Resonance is in LA so I am not in the studio for all the production work. 

    Why wouldn't a casual listener buy a live Sonny Rollins set? I assume they would buy the more affordable CD set or eventually download it or something instead of buying the LPs. 

    A certain age group still buys CDs because hey, they have a CD player. 

    I think the LP box is for a specific market. 

    I think it is an industry wide mandate that all formats have to have the same exact material. It first came up for me when working on something for Blue Note. I don't know this for sure but everyone seems to be following this mandate. 

  19. 2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

    Yeah, that's the realities of business. I get that.

    The realities of music are that one should never reject a bootleg, because you never know what's going to happen to it on the way to market. Sometimes value is added for the customer, sometimes value is added for the seller. You never know until you get there, so take it when you get it and then figure out which is which later.

    One personal reality - I am not going back to vinyl for a new release. Never. Been there, done that, had a blast, but...everything old might be new again, but then that means that I'm getting newer by the day, and I SO do not believe that bullshit! :g

    You know, honestly I'm a vinyl guy but I have little interest in getting these titles on vinyl myself. 

    The sources are usually digital at this point anyways.

    I will say there is one ridiculous vinyl box set on the horizon that I think will be worth it on LP.

    There is going to be a 12 LP box set The Complete Lee Morgan Live at the Lighthouse coming out next year. 

    These were mixed from the original 4 track tapes and the whole process was analogue and I think they sound great.

    There are no edits by the way....

  20. 1 minute ago, JSngry said:

    Listening to the OG bootleg today...the edits are probably less egregious if you don't know about them (or in my case, halfway forgotten abot them), but to hear this music organically (as possible) is jsut...different. The trio dynamic is truly organic, at times foreshadowing Air, sortakinda...not exactly, but...you can hear things moving towards that gravitational pull. It was happening.

    Not that anybody at Resonace would care about that for their product, but still, there it is anyway.

    But that's just it, isn't it? Edits and such are made all the time and the only reason one would know about it with live material like this is of a previous bootleg version exists. 

    If one listened to this fresh without the knowledge of edits, would it be a great listening experience? Dare I suggest even better perhaps?

    What if the artist approved the edits or approved the edited tracks?

    Clearly there is a bigger picture involved here and I really can't make a judgement about it. 

    Would I prefer unedited music myself? Probably

    Am I the person these labels are producing music for? Probably not

    If you made a big expensive box set and needed to recoup your expenses, would you go out on a limb (rightly or wrongly) to try to make it a tighter, more concise and perhaps a more enjoyable listening experience for the average listener? The edits are pretty seamless I think....

    Here are some things I do know for sure after working on a few of these things.

    1. Vinyl is king again. Vinyl sells more then CDs now. Any decisions about length and such are dictated by vinyl now, 

    2. The music has to be the same on all formats so no edits on one format and unedited on the other formats. 

     

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