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Album of the week: Andrew Hill - Grass Roots


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The Album of the Week for May 4 - 10 as picked by Rooster Ties is:

Andrew Hill - Grass Roots

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The Album of the Week works this way, the person who picks the cd for this week will nominate the person who will pick the cd for next week. Rooster Ties picked this week's title and nominated me, Africa Brass to pick the album for May 11-17.

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Past albums of the week:

April 26 - May 3: Weather Report - Black Market

April 13 - 26: Lee Morgan - Live at the Lighthouse

April 6 - 12: Charles Mingus - Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus

March 30 - April 5: Wayne Shorter - The All Seeing Eye

March 23 -29: Donald Byrd - Byrd in Hand

Edited by AfricaBrass
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Update: Well, I'm most of the way through "Grass Roots" (finally!!) - and I'll go on record as saying the most unexpectedly good thing about these sessions (among lots of good things!) is the presence of Jimmy Ponder on guitar on the earlier session (the one with Woody Shaw). Ponder adds a 'tartness' that really gives that date an added depth and authenticity, given Hill's somewhat suprising foray into 'soul jazz'. Looking forward to the discussion!!!

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Well, I relistened to the released session and most of the earlier unissued session.

What struck me right off the bat was that I hadn't listened to this album enough in the last few years! :wacko: This is one of the most enjoyable of Hill's dates, and a fun listen. I don't see it as an "unexpected" turn to soul jazz for Hill; I've thought that some of his other work (especially the Warwick as a leader and of course his sideman appearances for Blue Note) had soulful elements, and his compositions could certainly (this disc proves it) be played in a soulful manner . . . or not.

My one bit of contention with this originallly released album is the choice of Ervin on tenor. I just found my mind wandering as he soloed. I enjoyed his contributions to the heads/ensembles, but his soloing rarely showed me anything interesting or new. I guess I liked him best on "Mira."

Lee Morgan plays very well on this. On his more "reflective" solos it struck me that the swing/feel of his solo was quite like some tenor solos that I love of Yusef Lateef's, where Teefski slurs notes a bit and sort of slides along the melody line at his own pace . . . . And Lee's more "extroverted" solos here add some excitement to the procedings as well.

Another great factor to this date is the presence of Freddie Waits. Man, I just love the SOUND of his drums here and almost everywhere he's recorded. And he works well with Hill because he has his own way of coming up with a quirky pattern that stamps his individuality. His playing on "Soul Special" for example was right there in that Lou Donaldson-with-Idris Muhammad (Leo Morris) bag, but also individually his own. And he added a lot of drama to the session with his dynamics---not calling attention to his playing, but punctuating and pacing the structure. Damned fine job by Freddie.

I also really liked the comping that the Hill-Carter-Waits team produced for the soloists. Quite original in a quiet "listen closely and you will hear" sort of way. Ron Carter is a really good bassist for Hill because he roots the pulse and also puts out a lot of ideas.

And Hill. . . well he plays very well on this date, making it a souljazz date but not fooling anyone into forgetting that he's a very complex writer and musical thinker with his own way of playing a line and presenting a song. "Soul Special" stands out as the heart of this session to me. . . . Hill's piano almost sounds like an organ on a Lou Donaldson date for a large part of it, and then there's that solo that you would never hear on a Donaldson date. . . . Sort of the intent of the album in miniature to my ears.

The second date is good too, but not quite as fully realized as a "Hill" album to my ears. I love Jimmy Ponder, and I really love the way that he and Hill worked together to make a very different and interesting "sound" to their comping and participation in ensembles. It's a good date, but I think overall I have to give the nod to the first, though I found myself thinking by the time I was deeply into "Mira": "What if Cliff Jordan had been on this date instead of Booker?"

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Well, we have a difference of opinion here, Lon. I'd never really cared for GRASS ROOTS in its original form, and its all because of Ron Carter. One of the most appealing things to me about Hill's music has always been its rhythmic dynamism, the constant churning underneath. The original session just dooesn't have this - it's the most rhymically static Hill I've ever heard. This has always perplexed me, since Waits is a great drummer, always interactive, and more than willing to stir the pot. The choice of Booker Ervin seemed a bit "off" to me too, but it wasn't him that caused me such unease over the years, it was just how the whole thing just laid there and didn't move. A very un-Hill like trait. (and, Lee & Booker are BOTH players whose strengths come out over an active rhythm section rather than a static one, Booker in particular) After a couple of years of trying to figure out what was missing, I finally heard it - Ron Carter is making no attempt whatsoever to interact. He's just contributing these really limp bass lines and is content to let them flounder flaccidly. Musta been a bad day, or a bad vibe, because in those days, Carter was involved as a player. But on this one... Just because you're vamping, no, ESPECIALLY if you're vamping, that's no excuse for letting the pulse go all to hell, which is what Carter does here - there's just no "OOOMPH" in his playing, at least not to my ears (and feet). The time stays cool, but the BEAT...Waits sounds like he occassionally tries to get a thing going, but Carter just seems oblivious to anything but his own little zone of doing nothing. Every time I hear it, I get more and more frustrated, and wish that somebody would have reached over and slapped Carter out of his stupor, or at the very least given him a bump or two. There's really no excuse for being THAT listless in THAT company.

So for years, I wrote GRASS ROOTS off, pulling it out every few years or so just to see if there was something there I had missed. Alas, there wasn't. Then, shortly after I had discover the BNBB, I wrote a post expressing my disappointment with the album, and some kind soul responded that I should check out the CD version instead of the LP version, because the CD had a whole 'nother session that might, MIGHT cause me to reconsider. I had kind of lapsed on the whole BN reissue trip then, so wasn't really aware of it, but saw Woody Shaw and Jimmy Ponder in the same band, an ANDREW HILL band at that, and thought, "Well, THAT'S something you don't see every day!" and checked it out.

Long story short, I have a significant preference for the unreleased session to the "official" one. It's got all the spunk and verve that it's predecessor lacks. Freddie Waits sounds like Freddie Waits here! And no wonder - Reggie Workman does everything Carter didn't. He plays the vamps but doesn't get straightjacketed by them and keeps things lively and frisky, the way a good Anrew Hill session ought to be.

I really wish I could say that the original GRASS ROOTS album is one of those that grew on me little by little over the years, but it just hasn't. There's really no "cutoff point" for such things, of course, but it's 25 years now, and if anything, I like it LESS now than ever, having heard, roughly, what the album COULD have been like. A very rare misjudgement on Mr. Wolff's part, I must (reluctantly) conclude. But at least he didn't erase what he didn't use!

Edited by JSngry
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Well, I just hear it differently! I hear Carter and Waits working to make this a more conventional souljazz date with a twist, not a "Andrew Hill balls out date". . . and succeding. And I think that was the intention of the producer and possibly the artists.

Also I do think that Ron plays well here, coming up with some nice things. . . . I may have to revisit it with your impressions in mind, but hey I don't mind disagreeing!

Edited by jazzbo
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That was the intention, no doubt, but I'll go out on a bit of a limb and say that the Leroy Vinnegar/Donald Dean tandem would have served the purpose MUCH better than the Carter/Waits one, on THAT day anyway.

(on that note, and off topic altogether, rememberering that "who would you like to have heard Lee Morgan play more with" thread. how about Les McCann, in Les' less guarded/less commercial moments? I'd mention SWISS MOVEMENT, but that might be a dis to Benny Bailey, and that would be wrong!)

And by all means, DO disagree. Half the fun of having a strongly held opinion (and on this one, it is VERY strong) is in the bluster and faux-"superiority" of expressing it! It's fun to be a blowhard sometimes!

Edited by JSngry
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Well JSngry, it's been a while since I've been called a kind soul but I remember telling you about the extra date on the CD release. The musicians on that session seem more suited to Hill's music and overall I like it better but I always liked the session with Lee as well.

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This is an extremely interesting discussion, the sort of thing that makes spending time on the net worthwhile. Thanks for your very thoughtful comments, Jazzbo and Jim S.!

I am going to have to go back and listen to Grass Roots again after all of this. I will say that, since the CD was released, I have always preferred the unreleased session to the original album. It just seemed to me that Hill himself is more in his element on that session. And yes, the unique rhythmic pulse with those jagged accents that Hill gets on his best sessions is one reason why I am so attracted to his music. I never considered the possibility that Ron Carter versus Reggie Workman could be the main difference between the two sessions on Grass Roots in that respect.

Thanks again, guys.

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Okay, I've just finished listening to Grass Roots with the intention of making some comments here. I have heard the cd quite a few times before, but I wanted to be able to break it down a bit more.

First of all, I am unable to comment without being influenced by Jim and Lonson.

I too feel the second session is superior to the first, but the second session does not have "Mira," which is the best song on the cd.

I do feel that Ron Carter and Booker Ervin hurt the first session. Both are just not with it. I love Booker but he appears to be out of his element with Andrew Hill material. I notice that the solos are a little short, and this doesn't help. He acquits himself fine on "Mira" and "Bayou Red." I do like both Booker and Ron Carter, but they were off on this date.

Lee Morgan cooks throughout. He plays well as does Andrew Hill and Freddie Waits. The three of them rescue the session.

I do prefer the second session but I find the versions of "Soul Special" and "Bayou Red" to be too slow. The solos are wonderful however.

I too like Jimmy Ponder's work on the second session. Reggie Workman is excellent and the horn section is terrific.

"Mira" is a terrific song. I wish that Andrew Hill had done a session which would have been his version of "The Latin Bit." I just love Andrew's offbeat Latin style.

Overall: the cd is 4 stars (5 scale.) I aint selling or trading it. :g

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I'll be in the minority here and say that I like the first session better than the second. However, the second tries to be a little less conventional than the first and more challenging so who knows for sure. Agree that Mira is the highlight here. I'm a sucker for these kinds of latin rhythms, much more than I used to be.

I find that one of the pluses and minuses on the first session is Freddie Waits. I find his drumming very, very good. However, at the same time it's too obtrusive and seems too get in the way of the whole session. That could be the fault of how it was recording and not his playing but I was reminded of Lou Donaldson saying that he prefers a rhythm section that doesn't get in the way and I think Freddie Waits gets in the way. On the other hand, maybe he has to pick up the pace because of Ron Carter.

Jimmy Ponder was a definite plus and since I'd just listened to Phillip Catherine off the Dexter Gordon Something Different Session in the Steeplechase box, I found myself making comparisons here.

Overall, I hadn't listened to this album in a few years and having listened to it again, I found it much better the second time around.

A great idea to suggest this for album of the week.

Edited by Brad
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Well, it's not that Carter CAN'T paly funky or lay down a solid vamp that grooves, it's just that I don't hear him doing it here. Might have been an off day for him, maybe he just didn't feel it, maybe the personal vibe in the studio got funky, who knows? Stuff happens.

My bad in stating that Freddie Waits was on the unreleased session as well. Of course it's Morris/Muhammed. But what does it tell you that Idris Muhammed cops a better groove on an Andrew Hill date than Freddie Waits? Muhammed is a fine, often great drummer, that's not what I mean, but Freddie Waits was a FIREBREATHER, and I don't even smell smoke here.

Regarding Ervin, I think that Chuck's (?) comment somewhere else a few weeks ago to the effect that Booker Ervin's accompanists made him sound interesting (or something like that) comes into play here. I don't necessarily take that as a slight (not a full one, anyway), becasue it takes a really confident player to hang w/a rhythm section like Byard/Davis/Dawson or the Mingus/Richmond whirlwind. But the fact remains, Booker's gonna play what Booker's gonna play, and if the accompaniment doesn't offer either some active rhythmic interplay or a REALLY strong groove (as was the case w/the Parlan/Tucker/Harewood trio), Booker's not gonna do anything different, and given his penchant for exclamatory playing, if there's no heat backing him up, as I feel is the case here, the net result is akin to a Sanctified preacher delivering a sermon to a Vermont Espiscopalian congregation - one guy's trying to get all worked up, but he's in it all alone, and the void is uncomfortable to experience. I actually feel the same way about Lee's work on this album, albeit to a much lesser extent. Still, the "crackle" that makes Lee Morgan such an unforgettable voice seems missing on this date, and I don't hear it as him just being "mellow". That, of course, is entirely subjective though.

The thing about GRASS ROOTS that intrigues me, though, is that it was Hill's "comeback" album in a sense, made and released after a stretch of for whatever reason "failed" sessions. One wonders how much control Hill gave Wolff on this album, and how comfortable each of the players were with that control,especially seeing how the earlier session, which to my ears DID have some spunk, was rejected. Who knows what tensions were in place as the players tried to make a "keeper" for Hill and Wolff? Maybe Hill really, REALLY wanted an album with what he perceived as "popular appeal" and made that known going into the session. Maybe the "big chill" was there as a result of everybody consciously playing it safe for just that reason.

Or maybe not. Maybe the original GRASS ROOTS is one of those albums that I just don't "get" the way it was intended to be got. Seems like enough people like it well enough, so that just might be the case!

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Jim, I think that the intention was to make a classic Blue Note album of the time which would be a soulful one, and not a very "Hill" album, and I think that in that sense it was successful. I would not at all be surprised to find that there was a heavy producer's hand, nor would I be surprised to find that Hill was willingly fitting his music into this mold to have a released session and make a splash back into the recording pool. So to that extent I believe that the rhythmic restraint was calculated. It makes for a different type of Blue Note album, neither soul jazz mainstream, nor fully fleshed Hill. . . and I like it! I think it's a nice accessible date to introduce someone to Hill.

I think that Carter may have been chosen because he had experience in taking "traditional" formats and stretching them a bit. . . which may have been what all concerned walked in to the studio to do. And I think he did a good job in that light. All I can say is I like it. . . I like it more than the earlier session, which may or may not have had the same intention behind it.

Edited by jazzbo
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I don't have time to get too much in detail, but I wanted to focus my thoughts on the 2 different versions of "Soul Special."

On the first version, taken at a faster clip it sounds like it's going for a "The Sidewinder" vibe. Especially when Lee solos (not surprisingly!). But I agree with Jim, Ron Carter drives me nuts here. He sticks to the bass figure like he's cutting a Motown 45. Along with Freddie, they are just trodding along... creating no excitiement for the soloists to feed from. Booker's just trying to blow his brains out as usual, but nobody's behind him.

Now, check out the funk of the version with Idris and Reggie Workman. Reggie is smoking. Laying it down steady, but keeping the whole affair moving and interesting. He's not repeating the same thing over and over...he's dancing around the beat. Idris has that steady ride going that keeps the groove on. Unlike the other version...on this cut it's "Alligator Boogaloo" all the way! Which is great, because the best solo by far is by Hill! Hill floating over funk! Absolutely genius. Hill is pre-dating the acid jazz scene by 25 years on this one! Meaning, he takes a steady groove and takes it out. I don't know how many young acoustic jazz bands I've seen take this concept and run with it. Except today's beat is more hip-hoppish. But what they try to do on top, is what Hill does here better than anyone. He expands and contracts the time, cramming and dragging all at once.

The Tyrone Washington "Natural Essence" lp does this too, but not as successfully I think. I would have loved to have heard a whole album of Hill doing this stuff. :D Frank Mitchell on tenor just isn't happening....had Tyrone Washington, Byard Lancaster or Jackie McLean been on this one, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MONSTER!!!! As it stands, it only gives us a glimpse on what could have been. But what a glimpse it is!!!

....p.s.- this cut was on the original Rare Grooves compilation and BLEW me away then like it does now. Some nice soul sauce from the avant guarde.

I think I'll keep my input to that. Others have said what I think better. Overall my favorite is the session with Ron Carter. Aside from "Soul Special," I don't think the group with Ponder captures whatever the hell Hill was going for. The compositions just don't lend themselves to that group of players as well. There are some great grooves on "Grass Roots!" The title track and "Mira" are especially fine.

Edited by Soul Stream
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I enjoyed playing this through again. I like the easy going nature of the originally issued set. The horns sound happy and relaxed, laid back even, and Carter and Waits maintain a straight ahead groove for the most part throughout. Hill springs a few surprises along the way with his note clusters and slightly off centre playing.

Nice solos too from the horns on the second (earlier set) but overall I thought there was an uncomfortable feel in places. Hill is more outgoing, Workman's adventurous so maybe it's the drummer that doesn't quite hold it together for me.

Still it's a solid set, something I can listen to any time and enjoy.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Boy, this discussion made me go back and listen again and again. But I guess that's what these AOTW things are for. I don't think I've ever (over several years of lurking and posting) disagreed significantly with Jsangrey and here I couldn't disagree more. For me Ron Carter is the glue that holds the originally issued session together. Not just the lines but the sound which is much 'darker' than usual for him (so good it could almost be Richard Davis). At times the slow decay on held notes is the groove. for me, that is, which just show to go ya that two peoples can hear completely different things...I find the bonus session more "interesting" (esp'ly Jimmy Ponder in this context) but less successful/fully realized (hence unissued). Oh well, I'll try to keep up better.

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Given this one quite a few listens today. My own preference would definitely be for the earlier session and the preference for the Waits/Carter combination. I find that they give the music an element of 'spring' that works particularly well with Hill's piano style. Waits also plays with great taste throughout. I find the version of 'Soul Special' in particular to be preferable to the earlier version with Reggie, Idris and co. The earlier version has a funkier, laid back groove which is most agreeable but misses some of the 'tautness' of the later version. Particular cred to Freddie Waits for his very fine playing on this track.

My favourite track on the whole disk is 'Venture Inward' by the later band, which is a blast from beginning to end in my opinion and superbly executed. The later version of 'Soul Special' is also pretty neat, with honourable mentions also for the hypnotic 'MC' by the earlier band and the fascinating final track - 'Love Nocturne'. This reminds me quite a bit of the feel on Hill's earlier composition 'Pax', included on the Mosaic and the 'One For One' twofer set.

:rhappy:

Edited by sidewinder
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  • 4 months later...

Forgot to mention: IMHO, Ron Carter is da MAAAAAAN on Grass Roots. I know Richard Davis is rightfully regarded as Hill's best bassist, but I think that the choice of Carter on GR was an inspired one because it allowed Hill to bridge the gap between his groundbreaking abstractions and his desire to reach out to the jazz masses. Maybe Davis could've done it as well, but I think Carter's delicate touch and sense of swing fit perfectly on this album.

That's funny you mention that Al, 'cuz I remember Jim having almost a completely opposite opinion regarding Carter on that session. See the GRASS ROOTS album of the week thread.

I thought I leaned slightly towards Sangry's opinion about Ron Carter on "Grass Roots" - but it was never a very strong opinion I held. I may have to go back and revisit this.

PS: The above two quotes (quote within a quote, really), were from another Andrew Hill thread, FYI...

Edited by Rooster_Ties
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I must relisten to this one. My prior impression has been to give a significant edge to the previously unissued session, although I'm not sure I ever had analyzed why the way Jim did...it just "felt" better to me. Will go back with an open mind, though, and revisit this enjoyable date.

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Hey, I'm cool with it as long as you guys aren't bass players on a gig with me. ;):g B) :lol:

I can tell y'all from having seen these guys live: one's gotta have a LOTTA stamina to keep up with these guys. Playing like Ron on Grass Roots will get you flattened at a Quartet Out gig!!! :w:g

Having said that, the more I listen to GR, the more I really enjoy Ron Carter's playing. HOWEVER, I can totally sympathize with the antagonists on this one, and I think I understand WHY there's this discomfort: it seems like Hill went out of his way to NOT make an Andrew Hill record. By that, I mean that he wasn't doing his usual boundary-stretching like he'd done on previous Blue Note albums. (As an aside, when I listen to this, I often wonder what my reaction would've been had I been around at the time this came out. Perspective always seems to change when one's actually lived through it) Without sounding derogatory, GR sounds like an adventurous Herbie Hancock record, which in itself isn't necessarily a BAD thing; but I guess when you expect the kinds of things Hill is capable of, I can see how some people would be frustrated at what appears to be a kind of playing-to-the-lowest-common-denominator. Sort of like when Hancock made that video for MTV.

So my enthusiasm and enjoyment for this album is tempered by a slight "there but for the grace of God go I;" I have to think that it's only because of my place in the whole scheme of things that I'm able to enjoy this album as much as I do.

OR, I could just be full of shit and after ten-plus years of listening to jazz, I still wouldn't know good jazz from a hole in my head (among many); I just knows what I like! :excited::wacko::excited:

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