JSngry Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 You know, his parent's crib? I was asking becasue I was looking at the photos in the booklet for that Japanese disc of COOL STRUTTIN' alternates, and there's a picture of Clark, Farmer, & Jackie checking out a chart in some kind of mirrored corner. You can see the reflection of Wolff's flash in the mirror. Totally cool shot. The venetian blinds are world famous, but right off hand, I don't recall ever seeing the mirror until this shot, and that got me to thinking - what ws the layout there? Was it a living room. a rec room, just what was it, and how did they make it work, what with blinds and mirrors? Anybody know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim anderson Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 There's a pretty good discription in the new book "Temples of Sound" by Cogen and Clark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 It would be preety tough to find someone who was at his first studio, unless we get one of the musicians who recorded there to this board. What I find curious was those loops that Rudy had attached to the mics during the sixties sessions. (they are not windscreens.) In one picture I saw recently, one of the horn players actually had the bell of his horn just inside the loop while playing. Was this a device Rudy used to keep the players a certain distance from the mic? I remember one guy who posted on the BNBB a few times had turned up some rather specific stuff on the studio and some of his techniques. I would like to gather some info on these boards about rudy's techniques. (I am going to see if I can dig up those posts.)Should we start a seperate thread on that topic alone? Anyone interested in such a thread? I really dig his horn, and drum sounds, yet the drum miking scheme seems odd. I have seen pictures of Blakey's drums miked up and he has two mikes on the drums and one on the bass drum. The odd thing is I don't see any over head mike like other engineers used at that time. And other pictures of drum set ups I don't see an overhead mic either. (60's Englewood shots.) that means the cymbals were being picked up from underneath only, since the mikes sitting under neath the cymbal, pointed at the drums.. Was he using a bi directional mike or omni? ! I guess the room had a lot to do with the drum sound also. Interesting to note the studio In Englewood had wood floors but they put down a carpet where the musicians were set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 The Englewood Cliffs studio has concrete floors actually, no wood anywhere except the ceiling. I'd like to learn more about that first studio as well. Rudy mentioned his parents house (that studio) had been demolished, he seemed pretty bummed about it as I guess you'd imagine. What history! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel devos Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Another very interesting thread....yes, definitely, we are interested in analyzing the the components, physical and intellectual, that build up Rudy's exemplary reputation. I feel Rudy's sound results mostly from a no nonsense use of miking techniques and post production processing kept to a bare minimum....Listening to his own remasterings in the RVG Edition confirms, at least to me, his basically uncomplicated approach of recording in a live acoustical environment.Therefore, any practical information about the structure , surfaces and furnitures of his studio would improve our understanding of how things really happened there... Now would anyone be interested in developing ideas over what exactly a good mastering job should be..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 I'd like to learn more about that first studio as well. Rudy mentioned his parents house (that studio) had been demolished, he seemed pretty bummed about it as I guess you'd imagine. What history! There's still cats around who recorded there. Byrd and McLean are the first two to come to mind. I'm really curious as to the layout in that room in his parent's house. I've done my fair share of "living room" recording, and it sounds NOTHING like that! And seeing that (apparently) mirrored wall might explain why. Wonder how many walls were so covered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim anderson Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 quoting from 'temples of sound': it was a modern, u-shaped building with a flat roof and central airconditioning. but the elder van gelder let his son help design the living room, which made up the middle of the u-shaped house, so it could double as a recording studio. 'he let me put in a control room in there,' rudy recalls. 'there were bedrooms, a living room, a dining room, there was a kitchen, and there was a control room and the control room had a window into the living room.. yo know, a double glass..it's amazing. it still amazes me. 'we had rugs on the floor, lamps, and a television set, and little doodads in the corners. and there were hallways off the edge of it, so it gave a little more acoustic volume. so it was a fairly nice-sounding room. it had a fairly high ceiling, and it was rectangular and pretty well suited for a five-piece bebop band.' pages 194-195 'temples of sound' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 Thanks for that quote, Jim. Elder Van Gelder musta been a pretty hip guy his ownself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 I think it was the custom made tube console that accounts for the difference between your home recordings and Rudy's more than the room Jim. Rudy mentions it in the book. It is generally not a good idea to have windows or mirrors in a recording environment; can really add a upper midrange emphasis to the sound. (I'm sure you have experienced this on live gigs where the bandstand is set up against a window.) the high ceilings are a big plus though. Also the hallways noted in the the description prevented the sound from getting too boxy. When I was a kid my band rehearsed in a similar type room . Come to think of it, it sounded better than alot of studios I've been in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 You know, the most accoustically perfect gig I've ever played, including some halls, was in an office building, a huge warehouse affair that had been extremely cubicled and corridored off with padded dividers, and an approximately 20 foot ceiling with exposed duct work. I don't know enough about accoustics to know the hows and whys, but that environment just SANG! This was with an electrified pop band w/3 horns and 2 singers, and everybody sounded unamped, and right next to you, including the singers. Amazing... I sounded the owners out about recording in there, after hours, but they weren't interested. Too bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim anderson Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 windows and mirrors aren't necessarily a bad thing as long as the surfaces are different and scattered around the room the keystone korner had a huge mirror at one end of the stage which never bother me one bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted March 12, 2003 Report Share Posted March 12, 2003 There's still cats around who recorded there. Byrd and McLean are the first two to come to mind. Don't forget Gil Mellé! Wasn't he the guy who hipped Alfred Lion to Rudy Van Gelder? I like the pictures of the old Hackensack studio in the booklet of the Herbie Nichols box set (the Blue Note slipcase edition). Looks pretty much like Ma 'n' Pa's living room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel devos Posted March 12, 2003 Report Share Posted March 12, 2003 There's still cats around who recorded there. Byrd and McLean are the first two to come to mind. Don't forget Gil Mellé! Wasn't he the guy who hipped Alfred Lion to Rudy Van Gelder? I like the pictures of the old Hackensack studio in the booklet of the Herbie Nichols box set (the Blue Note slipcase edition). Looks pretty much like Ma 'n' Pa's living room. jazzhound Posted on Mar 11 2003, 09:44 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it was the custom made tube console that accounts for the difference between your home recordings and Rudy's more than the room Jim. Rudy mentions it in the book. Possibly, Jazzhound, the tube circuitry applies a mellower, airier space quality to the sound, but then only to a limited extend...For sure, there MUST be something else that brings us that unusual mix of immediacy and subtle ambience in the sound. I have ordered the book from Amazon and really look forward going thru Rudy's pages. BTW, I remember reading inan old interview he mentioned several contiguous rooms (alcoves?) that could be opened or closed in function of the space he wanted : did you read this one?I think it is still somewhere on the Net if you check via google Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 12, 2003 Report Share Posted March 12, 2003 Are you sure that's not a description of the Englewood Cliffs studio? There are certainly four small rooms adjoining the main space there - typically used for piano, bass, drums, and soloist/vocalist. On some occasions, though RVG will still record "the old way" with everyone all together in the same big room. As for who played in Hackensack, there are lots - Benny Golson, Sonny Rollins, Marian McPartland, Horace Silver, Percy Heath, Danny Bank, Jimmy Cleveland, Frank Foster, Randy Weston, Phil Woods, Cecil Payne, Lee Konitz, Teo Macero, Curtis Fuller, Ira Sullivan, Slide Hampton, Louis Smith, Edwin Swanston, and on and on. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 Capturing the ambience of Rudy's living room studio is one thing, but keeping it audible through the process so it is still audible on a record is another. Because the ambient sound in a small room that is not particularly live acoustic wise is so close in time to the source sound and of such a low level in relation to the source, it would be prone to disappear in the tape hiss or system noise. When I recorded in a small room with nice ambience I would try compressing the signal so the air would come up in volume in relation to the source. I haven't had alot of experience with tube gear in studios, but the gear I did use such as Pultec equalisers tended to compress the signal somewhat. Perhaps the tube equipment Rudy used helped keep the ambient sound audible in this way, along with tape compression and using short signal paths. The aco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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