Larry Kart Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Wow, this is an old one indeed. Not sure I ever saw it or responded but I guess my comment would be what does it matter. Oh, it could matter a lot in simple (or not so simple) human terms if Jackie sounded the way he did and was white, or if he sounded the way he did and got a lot of guff from other black guys about the way he looked, but we know the first isn't so, and I've never heard anything about him getting hassled on the second count. It mattered to me in high school (small farming community in central Iowa). The Prestige records I had at the time used photos that were "one or the other" and he sounded unlike white players I had heard at the time. At that point in my life, when I was trying to figure out 1000 things, this was one. Interesting (in a good way) to have this thread resurrected now. Yes, I had that reaction, too, at the same time, especially to the cover of "Jackie McLean and Co." Before I knew the truth, it was intriguing to think that a white player could sound like that. Once I knew the truth, Jackie was just himself to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Race and/or "race" only matters and/or "matters" when it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 At least nobody on this thread is whining 'bout him playing outta tune, oops... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValerieB Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 At least nobody on this thread is whining 'bout him playing outta tune, oops... isn't it called dissonance?!? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I'm not even going to bring up Frank Strozier - Actually when I started reading this thread now (had never noticed it before) the original question immediately made me think of Frank Strozier too. When I got that original copy of "Fantastic Frank Strozier" on VeeJay I was sort of puzzled about the cover pic as I had imagined him to be Black (O.K., a/a for those who prefer that term) but wasn't so sure about it anymore after seeing that cover. Now what about Jackie McLean, then? What IS the common consensus or established knowledge, then? Can't we just cut out this P.C. or "being touchy" thing for a second and just give a factual answer? I mean, it is NOT something that values or valorizes anybody in any way these days anymore. It's just about stating a fact, one way or another. And haven't subjects such as this been discussed in the case of Creoles too? Without any P.C. qualms? As for me, I've always guessed he falls in the same league as Kenny Burrell or EARLE WARREN (of the Basie band), for that matter, i.e. a very light-skinned Black who might even have passed as White in some contexts. Now tell me frankly, is it so or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I'm not even going to bring up Frank Strozier - Actually when I started reading this thread now (had never noticed it before) the original question immediately made me think of Frank Strozier too. When I got that original copy of "Fantastic Frank Strozier" on VeeJay I was sort of puzzled about the cover pic as I had imagined him to be Black (O.K., a/a for those who prefer that term) but wasn't so sure about it anymore after seeing that cover. Now what about Jackie McLean, then? What IS the common consensus or established knowledge, then? Can't we just cut out this P.C. or "being touchy" thing for a second and just give a factual answer? I mean, it is NOT something that values or valorizes anybody in any way these days anymore. It's just about stating a fact, one way or another. And haven't subjects such as this been discussed in the case of Creoles too? Without any P.C. qualms? As for me, I've always guessed he falls in the same league as Kenny Burrell or EARLE WARREN (of the Basie band), for that matter, i.e. a very light-skinned Black who might even have passed as White in some contexts. Now tell me frankly, is it so or not? It is so, in all the cases you mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 What about this guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'm afraid the news on McLean is not good. He was five-foot-five. Height still matters in the U.S. It shouldn't but it does. (Feel free to take this in an Onion spirit.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjk Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'm not even going to bring up Frank Strozier - Actually when I started reading this thread now (had never noticed it before) the original question immediately made me think of Frank Strozier too. Actually, when I started reading this thread, it made me think of Aric's thread back in the BNBB days asking whether Herbie Nichols was gay or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 http://search.eb.com/blackhistory/micro/726/64.html Thank you. I'm not even going to bring up Frank Strozier - Actually when I started reading this thread now (had never noticed it before) the original question immediately made me think of Frank Strozier too. Actually, when I started reading this thread, it made me think of Aric's thread back in the BNBB days asking whether Herbie Nichols was gay or not. Sshhhhhh. Don't get 'em started here about gay musicians. Especially dead ones. I say, in the name of Billie Tipton...... I'm not even going to bring up Frank Strozier - Actually when I started reading this thread now (had never noticed it before) the original question immediately made me think of Frank Strozier too. Actually, when I started reading this thread, it made me think of Aric's thread back in the BNBB days asking whether Herbie Nichols was gay or not. Sshhhhhh. Don't get 'em started here about gay musicians. Especially dead ones. I say, in the name of Billie Tipton...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Lester Young's nickname for Earl Warren (who, was, btw, a great soloist in his later years) was "white folks." There's a Cadence interview with Warren in which he talks about the whole skin color issue and clearly shows a lot of hurt in regard to his being considered less than black. The whole subject can get really strange and even a little bizarre, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoppy T. Frog Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 He looks very white to me: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 This is far out. Jackie Mclean, Tony Willams 15 or 16 y.o., Ray Santisi. Connolly's Star Dust Room Roxbury, MA  https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10225042336709490&set=a.4846320039768 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 On 12.1.2012 at 2:33 AM, AllenLowe said: The whole subject can get really strange and even a little bizarre, Yes!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 On 24.12.2020 at 6:12 PM, Dmitry said: This is far out. Jackie Mclean, Tony Willams 15 or 16 y.o., Ray Santisi. Connolly's Star Dust Room Roxbury, MA  https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10225042336709490&set=a.4846320039768 Great picture. It was almost a father-son relation between Jackie McLean and Tony Williams. I think McLean even offered Tony a place to sleep during Chrismas 1962 when he first came to NY. Young Tony looks like he could be McLean´s son, so young he looks. But what really counts is the great music those two were making..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 The liner notes to "One Step Beyond" tell the great story of McLean meeting Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted December 29, 2020 Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 13 hours ago, Don said: The liner notes to "One Step Beyond" tell the great story of McLean meeting Williams. Yes that´s true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkytonk Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 The back cover of A.B. Spellman's Four Lives in the Bebop Business: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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