Ornette Coleman - Sam Rivers

[Dmitry]

I don't think they ever appeared together on record and don't remember reading about them ever playing together[i could be wrong?].

Reflecting upon Rivers's BN albums which IMO are quite related to Ornette's musical concepts I find it a little strange that they never collaborated on anything.

Do you?

[JSngry]

Gotta remember, Sam's a lot older and from Boston.

[Dmitry]

Gotta remember, Sam's a lot older and from Boston.

A Kerry connection?

What are you saying?

[JSngry]

Sam was travelling in different musical and social circles. Sam's got a lot of "formal" training, and Ornette is self-taught. Sam's always essentially been an inside player who grew out. Ornette's pretty much always lived in a world of his own. Sam's extremely urban, and Ornette is country. T-Bone Walker would have been their only common ground, stylistically.

Not to say that Sam didn't find inspiration in Ornette, but he might very well have thought that Ornette wasn't showing him anything he didn't already know. Sam's always come across as a man whose pride and independence are pretty substantial.

But, yeah, you'd have thought that their paths would have crossed once or twice. but then again, they had "competing" lofts, Prince Street & Studio Rivbea, so maybe the opportunity never really presented itself.

Good question!

[Dmitry]

My purely unsubstantiated feeling is that it was because of some generally unknown "personal reasons".

These two were far too close to each other musically to just ignore each other, so it must have been something else.

Over.

[JSngry]

They were both on Dave Hollands Conference of the Birds.

Huh?

[7/4]

They were both on Dave Hollands Conference of the Birds.

why isn't ornette's name on the cover?

Good question.

And an embarrassing one too.

What was I thinking?

[Pete C]

It's not as if Ornette has ever been a prolific collaborator with people in the jazz world outside of guys who played in his bands on and off--a few things here and there, like McLean & Metheny, but he was as likely to collaborate with the Master Musicians of Jajouka, Sultan Khan, Yoko Ono, or Joe Henry. And Ornette certainly has his reticent, mysterious & quirky side, as Jim suggests. I don't find it in the least bit surprising that he & Rivers never worked together. The same hypothetical could be posed for countless pairs who never happened to work together.

I don't Jim's point about age. Rivers is about 7 years older than Ornette. So what? Ornette started recording before Rivers, and they were both in NY in the '60s & '70s.

There are countless possible speculations as to why any particular hypothetical pairing never happened.

Forget about the competing loft theory. First of all, I don't think Ornette really presented concerts on a regular basis like Rivbea, and when he did it was basically pre-Rivbea. I was an active audience member at the 70s lofts, and there was anything but a sense of competition. Warren Smith, who ran Studio W.I.S. often played with Sam at Rivbea; Rivers & Joe Lee Wilson played at each others' lofts.

I think Dmitry is psychoanalyzing up a "problem" that never existed.

[Dmitry]

I think Dmitry is psychoanalyzing up a "problem" that never existed.

Well, it is kind of unusual for two musicians of note, working in the same [not overly populated] genre of music, living in the same city for years, at times playing with the same people, not to play or record a single time together.

I find it somewhat odd. Hence the question.

Edited June 4, 2004 by Dmitry