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I wish I had more 47 W 63rd Blue Notes...


wolff

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I mean the remixing of the session tapes to create a new master tape. Isn't that what happened/happens a lot these days? Re-E.Q.ing, panning, etc? Is that called "remastering" or is that just "remixing"? And are the terms used interchangably, if carelessly?

Yes, used interchangably and carelessly.

In the case of most classic sessions before the mid '60s the tapes are either mono or 2 track stereo masters. In the case of stereo, panning and eq is all you can do.

In this case, "remastered" means simply transferring the analog information to the "digital domain" using the panning and eq mentioned above.

Some labels return to multitracks and remix stuff for the later sessions. Sometimes this is a good idea, sometimes not. Producer has to make the call.

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so the "father" wears out as well after so many times and you'd have to return to the acetate or the actual mixed tape to produce a new one, introducing many more factors that may affect the sound again?

(edited to add questionmark)

The acetate is destroyed in the plating process. You have to go back to the tape and make a new one. In the old days this was called remastering.

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Duh! Do you think I don't know anything?

Please tell me your experiences.

What are you talking about?

I had no thought of you or what you know as I posted this informative link for others to read. I post this link quite often. Sorry, if you thought it was connected to you or what you know in any way.

Edited by wolff
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An example of a NY USA pressing that sounds outstanding is the original 'Unity'. I have a stereo - wonder what the mono of this one is like?

Concur with the comment about the NY USA monos. George Braith's 'Two Souls in One' in mono sounds absolutely outstanding in this format. As does the Lee Morgan 'Sidewinder' and 'Rumproller'. Wouldn't swap these for the stereo for anything ! B)

Some of the early Liberty's sound pretty nice too. Hutcherson's 'Stick Up', McLean's 'Action' and the mono Duke Pearson 'Sweet Honey Bee' are three of my sonic faves of this vintage (although the McLean and Pearson were originally issued on NY USA).

I may actually like the stereo's slightly more, overall. I have a few more stereo's than mono's. I probably have 4 or 5 in both stereo and mono. I have 'Two Souls in One' and 'Sidewinder' in mono and I think they are very good. My original mono 'Rumproller' is one that sounds just ok, IMO. Same with my mono 'Cornbread'.

My stereo 'Stick Up' is a nice one that gets a lot of play.

I probably would not trade my mono 'Right Now!' . McLean's tone is perfect for the BN sound and it sounds real on this one.

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How sad that, with all of the technology available today, there seems to be no way to produce that original sound. Most of the session reels are still in good condition. There ought to be some way to use these to issue that great sound.

But, and this is not sour grapes, I am happy with nearly all of my BN CDs.

I have a few LP's that do this, just not Blue Note's. The Classic mono's do a very good job.

What Steve Hoffman did with "Ray Charles and Betty Carter" and "Elvis is Back", along with what Kevin Gray did on "Buddy Holly" gives me hope that one day soon..............

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Wolff, thanks for posting a link to that article. Very interesting and quite illuminating.

You are welcome. There are quite a few other interesting articles on the site, also. There is a high degree of integrity and dedication to Hobson's work that is very admirable. Even though the prices can be high, 9 times out of 10 I feel like I got my monies worth.

Cooder's 'Buena Vista Social Club' is an example. Analog sound at it's finest. And if you don't listen to Cooder's fumbles the music is great, too. :D

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The McLean 'Capuchin Swing' has arrived (47W63rd mono deep groove) and is currently on the turntable. As with the 'Bluesnik' this one has great presence, clarity and nice big dynamic range. Blue Mitchell's sound crackles nicely and Art Taylor is captured very cleanly. Paul Chambers on his bowed bass solos sounds sublime. McLean actually sounds as if he's standing right there between the speakers. I have no other version of 'Capuchin Swing' to compare against but this is one of the best sounding McLean Blue Notes in my opinion.

Too bad that the labels on both sides of the LP are bleached out but the proof, as always, is in the listening ! :wub:

Edited by sidewinder
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I recently found "Sheila Jordan - Portrait of Sheila" on eBay in mint- condition. It's the NY, USA mono pressing. Fantastic sound.  :wub:

How's the music on this one? Always been intrigued since it's a BN vocal.

Wonderful. I've got a late-80s CD copy and the version of 'Baltimore Oriole' is to die for. Unusual lineup including Denzil Best, who is always worth a listen.

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Man, I went away for a few days and this thread got interesting! Sorry I missed it.

Thanks for the mastering post, Wolff, and to Chuck for your comments also.

My two cents, as a listener and someone who knows VERY little about the process of making records:

First, I expressed preference for the monos purely because I like the soundstage and the placement of the instruments when I'm listening. To me, it sounds more like a real band in front of me. With stereo, I sometimes find the separation distracting, with drums all the way on one side and the horns coming out of the other. This isn't really a "sound quality" preference, I realize. More of a presentation preference.

Second, the thing I look for on Blue Notes is the RVG or Van Gelder in the dead wax. I think the later pressings with RVG in the dead wax all sound really good, even blue label ones that you can pick up cheap. My main comparisons have been to the CD issues I own though, so I can't say if there is much of a sound quality difference between the original issues, first re-issues (NY, USA label) or the later ones. In each case they have beaten the CD re-issues sound-wise. I don't have enough of the same LPs in both W 63rd and NY to make a comparison between the original issue and the first re-issue. Plus, I don't have enough to compare the differences in the dead wax.

The one comparison I can make is a copy of Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers "A Night In Tunisia." I have a W 63rd deep groove stereo and a NY USA stereo. Both have the same hand-written BST 84049 in the dead wax with RVG STEREO stamped in. The one difference is that the deep groove also has what I have seen referred to as the "ear" -- a little squibbly thing for lack of a better description -- also in the dead wax. I'm listening to the NY copy right now after listening to the W 63rd, and they sound the same to me. This is hardly a scientific comparision, I realize. My system is OK: Music hall MMF-5 turntable, through my Sony receiver's phono soundstage to a pair of old, good sounding Burhoe Accoustics two-way speakers (music-buying keeps getting in the way of equipment upgrades!). Both LPs are in nice shape (if I were to put them on E-Bay I would call them VG+), with no marks, pops or distortion. Just for fun I'll stick in the CD version after this, but I'm guessing it won't go back in the player for a long time!

In my LP buying, I have looked mostly for NY USAs, because they aren't as expensive as the W 63rds and I have liked the way they sounded (again, I'm mostly comparing them to the CD re-issues).

Anyway, my two cents.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This thread piqued my interest in terms of how many pre-Liberty Blue Note LPs I had. Alas, I have discovered only five, all with New York, USA labels.

I immediately noticed that the vinyl appears to be heavier and the cardboard sleeve as well appears make of heavier cardboard stock than the varied reissue LPs in my collection.

I've got copies of:

Big John Patton, Got a Good Thing Goin (mono)

Duke Pearson, Wahoo (mono)

Dexter Gordon, A Swinging Affair (mono)

Hank Mobley, Workout (stereo)

George Braith, Two Souls in One (mono).

Now I'm going to have to listen to these again.

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Big John Patton, Got a Good Thing Goin (mono)

Duke Pearson, Wahoo (mono)

Dexter Gordon, A Swinging Affair (mono)

Hank Mobley, Workout (stereo)

George Braith, Two Souls in One (mono).

That's a nice handfull. Are they in good shape? Oh yeh, look for the ear in the dead wax. :rolleyes:

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Big John Patton, Got a Good Thing Goin (mono)

Duke Pearson, Wahoo (mono)

Dexter Gordon, A Swinging Affair (mono)

Hank Mobley, Workout (stereo)

George Braith, Two Souls in One (mono).

That's a nice handfull. Are they in good shape? Oh yeh, look for the ear in the dead wax. :rolleyes:

What does the ear mean? I found the ear in three of them (Braith, Mobley and Gordon). All four monos have Van Gelder in the wax. The stereo says RVG.

The vinyl is in good shape on all of them, it appears, but the covers are damaged on two. I even remember where I bought these LPs. Three used from Collector's Records in Dallas 20 or more years ago for a grand total of $19.50. The Big John Patton I believe I acquired new sometime back in the 1970s as a cutout in some discount store for a couple of bucks. The Duke Pearson I bought in Austin for a few bucks new; not sure how it survived sealed and unsold until the early 1980s, unless it's because the back cover is upside down.

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What does the ear mean? I found the ear in three of them (Braith, Mobley and Gordon). All four monos have Van Gelder in the wax. The stereo says RVG.

Here is some info I've come across over the years. The following info may or may not be accurate. :D

The ear is actually a "P" two loops forming a stylized letter P, for the logo of Plastylite, the New Jersey pressing plant which fabricated all Blue Note LPs from 1950 through the middle of 1966.

The ear was inscribed on each STAMPER manufactured for use at Plastylite, so that all disks would have the Plastylite identifier. That means you will see the ear on some Prestige records and a few United Artists records (Ellington, King Pleasure, Blakey) of the early 1960s, who briefly also used Plastylite.

When you examine a disk, unless there was an ERROR (on rare occasions the stampers were put into use with the ear accidentally not impressed in the metal, just a sloppy mistake in manufacturing), the ABSENCE of the ear indicates a pressing dating from 1966 to date.

More obviously, most of the NEW YORK USA label releases, the late 4000/84000 and the 4100/84100 series, were first pressed in New Jersey with ear and a few years later re-pressed by Liberty with no ear, but the same exact labels were used. Due to haphazard scheduling of release dates and frequent postponements or "passing over" of certain artists' titles, the pattern of the end of the ear era is messy, but suffice it to say that Joe Henderson 4227/84227 is the HIGHEST CAT. # title issued with ear. Several early titles were also held back until Liberty ran the show, so they do not exist with ear: such as 4118, 4171, 4193, 4196, 4203, 4204, 4206, 4209, 4212-3, 4215, 4217-9, 4222 and their stereo counterparts.

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Interesting Blue Note info or misinformation, as the case may be.

I've recently been learning some things about Blue Note recordings and original vinyl I never knew. I admit it could be false, so learning may be an incorrect term.

The following was news to me and it could be widely known or just rumor. It could have been discussed in Mosaic sets, also. I assume Cuscuna(and the original Blue Note recording engineer and others who have worked with the tapes) would be the authority,.

Just thought I'd throw it out for discussion.

After November 1958 there was only a single master tape prepared for each LP, ending the previous era wherein mono and stereo versions had different editing (often a solo or two inserted from alternate takes into the master take and new intros or endings inserted, but differently for mono vs. stereo) and where sometimes either the mono or the stereo tapes had not survived to the present day.

...After 1958 and certainly 100% by late 1962 the stereo master was the SOURCE of the mono disk, not some separate and distinct mono master tape.

Edited by wolff
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I've sold a bunch of Liberty and 70's blue label pressings of Blue Note albums in the past year on ebay. Can I honestly say that they sounded better than the cds I have? No. I'm just tired of the clutter. I will never get rid of my Art Blakey's which are almost all first pressings, but I'm happy to have most of the others on cd. It doesn't lessen my experience of the music.

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