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Riverside- Bill Grauer Productions


Leeway

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Thanks, CA, for straightening my wild hares.

Speaking of Riverside Oddball Projects, how about that series of at least a dozen auto racing LPs. (During a blindfold test, how can you tell them apart?)

Also: jazz LPs that played from the INSIDE OUT-- and in colored vinyl.

The Sebring LPs did rather well, as I recall. There was also a series called "Sounds of the Home" (dripping faucets, slamming screen doors, etc.) which did not do so well, The inside out releases were on the Judson (another phone exchange) label, which purported to represent a new, proprietary recording technique, but didn't. There was a lengthy description of this technique on the sleeve--completely bogus. This was when consumers were seriously getting into audio, and record companies tried to outdo each other with proprietary sound achievement that had intriguing names but often were limited to that. As I recall, Blue Mitchell's "Smooth as the Wind" was the only jazz album released on Judson, but not many people had a turntable that could play from label to edge.

Riverside also put out a few comedy albums. There was one by Ed Sherman (aka "George Crater" in down beat), a really interesting one by Peter Ustinov, and one containing a series of skits by a comedy team whose names escape me right now.

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As I recall, Blue Mitchell's "Smooth as the Wind" was the only jazz album released on Judson, but not many people had a turntable that could play from label to edge.

Christern, with all due respect, permit me to correct.

Blue Mitchell's 'Smooth As The Wind' was a Riverside release.

As for Judson, I have two of those albums, both by Kenny Drew (with the great Wilbur Ware on bass): 'The Harold Arlen Showcase' and 'The Harry Warren Showcase'.

Both play like regular LPs, from the edge to the label.

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Blue Mitchell's 'Smooth As The Wind' was a Riverside release.

I don't recall the label, but I had a red vinyl "Smooth as the Wind" and it played from the center out (not a problem with my AR turntable). It was packaged in a laminated gatefold jacket with different artwork.

That's the one I am referring to. Of course it was also released as a regular Riverside, otherwise it probably would have sold less than 10 copies!

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Last thing:  Was there a "Riverside Sound," in terms of recording sound, something like RVG's Blue Note 'sound" ?

If by this you mean, "I think the essence of BN vinyl is the immediacy and presence of the sound; it's right in front of you. I think RVG aimed for that effect. The best ones make you feel you are right in Rudy's living room. .... Perhaps some people get bugged by this "in your face" quality, but I like it. "

IMO, two different animals and I've never taken note of a Riverside sound. I have a ton of OJC Riversides and a handlful of originals. What a great catalog Riverside has. I know Riverside has quite few records that are thought well of sound wise. Listened to some Bill Evans Riverside Lp's recently and nothing stood out other than the music, which is high praise in my book.

Wolff, thanks for quoting me! ;)

Yes, that's what I did have in mind. Aside from BN, there was another thread recently about Contemporary Records, and CR's audio quality. I was thinking along similar lines about Riverside.

I haven't had a chance to go through enough Riverside/Grauer productions in a systematic way to get a better idea of any particular audio quality they might possess. Has anyone been able to formulate a view on this?

BTW, I have a number of Japanese pressings of Riverside (on Victor), including a number of Bill Evans records, and the sound on those is clean, intimate, nicely detailed and balanced; in fact, they are my best Evans LPs.

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Wolff, thanks for quoting me!  ;)

Yes, that's what I did have in mind.  Aside from BN, there was another thread recently about Contemporary Records, and CR's audio quality.  I was thinking along similar lines about Riverside.

I haven't had a chance to go through enough Riverside/Grauer productions in a systematic way to get a better idea of any particular audio quality they might possess.  Has anyone been able to formulate a view on this?

BTW, I have a number of Japanese pressings of Riverside (on Victor), including a number of Bill Evans records, and the sound on those is clean, intimate, nicely detailed and balanced; in fact, they are my best Evans LPs.

Yeh, I thought you'd like that. Good description.

I've steered clear of most original Riversides for the same reasons as a previous poster. The vinyl quality was too spotty(but I was buying used). Some great, some lousy, so now I just get OJC's.

Your description of your Japanese Riversides sounds spot on for the Rivereside sound I am familiar with...albums from around 59-65.

Edited by wolff
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I never thought Riverside had an identifiable sound, nor was there any attempt to create one. Just about all the NYC studio sessions were done at Plaza Sound Studio, which was located above Radio City Music Hall, and our engineer was Ray Fowler. Ray always monitored the sessions on cheap equipment, assuming that the albums would mostly be played back through systems that left something to be desired. If the stuff sounded good on low-end equipment, Ray was satisfied. The pressings were pretty unimpressive and, BTW, Prestige used the same company.

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I sure seem to have a lot of 'Live' Riverside LP's(Adderley, Monk and Charlie Byrd). Any particular reason?

My favorite Riverside LP is a actually a Fantasy twofer of Dorham dates. Sounds real nice to me. I've played 'Since I Fell For You"(Dorham sings) and "Don't Explain(Abbey Lincoln)" a zillion times. :D

Edited by wolff
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Live recording was made easier by the fact that Riverside had an old Greyhound bus that had been converted into a mobile control room. I used it on a recording trip to Chicago in 1961. Unfortunately, the label was in the early stages of its financial demise, so they assigned two "engineers" to my trip neither of whom cared for jazz. Their previous experience as recording engineers was that Sounds of the Home series--working with them was a nightmare.

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Live recording was made easier by the fact that Riverside had an old Greyhound bus that had been converted into a mobile control room. I used it on a recording trip to Chicago in 1961. Unfortunately, the label was in the early stages of its financial demise, so they assigned two "engineers" to my trip neither of whom cared for jazz. Their previous experience as recording engineers was that Sounds of the Home series--working with them was a nightmare.

What a great thread (for some reason I didn't see this earlier)! Your comments/recollections of Riverside are very interesting. B)

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I never thought Riverside had an identifiable sound, nor was there any attempt to create one. Just about all the NYC studio sessions were done at Plaza Sound Studio, which was located above Radio City Music Hall, and our engineer was Ray Fowler. Ray always monitored the sessions on cheap equipment, assuming that the albums would mostly be played back through systems that left something to be desired. If the stuff sounded good on low-end equipment, Ray was satisfied. The pressings were pretty unimpressive and, BTW, Prestige used the same company.

Ray's thoughts on sound make sense to me. If you can make it sound good on cheap equipment (which is usually the most commonly owned equipment), it should sound that much better on top end equipment, right? (OK, this doesn't always work out in practice).

This is the opposite of what some audiophile companies seem to do- their product is designed for high-end equipment, and often enough, the results don't satisfy. The BNs, Riversides, Prestige, et al, records of the 50s and 60s were probably most often played on fairly primitive "record players." Yet even now, their analog sound still can knock your socks off- even when they weren't trying for that effect.

I was also thinking of the information cited in the threads above about Grauer and Keepnews. Maybe from Keepnew's viewpoint, seeing all those albums going out marked "Bill Grauer Production," might have motivated him to start his own personal PR campaign to highlight his own work with the label.

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  • 3 years later...

I never thought Riverside had an identifiable sound, nor was there any attempt to create one. Just about all the NYC studio sessions were done at Plaza Sound Studio, which was located above Radio City Music Hall, and our engineer was Ray Fowler. Ray always monitored the sessions on cheap equipment, assuming that the albums would mostly be played back through systems that left something to be desired. If the stuff sounded good on low-end equipment, Ray was satisfied. The pressings were pretty unimpressive and, BTW, Prestige used the same company.

Ray's thoughts on sound make sense to me. If you can make it sound good on cheap equipment (which is usually the most commonly owned equipment), it should sound that much better on top end equipment, right? (OK, this doesn't always work out in practice).

This is the opposite of what some audiophile companies seem to do- their product is designed for high-end equipment, and often enough, the results don't satisfy. The BNs, Riversides, Prestige, et al, records of the 50s and 60s were probably most often played on fairly primitive "record players." Yet even now, their analog sound still can knock your socks off- even when they weren't trying for that effect.

I was also thinking of the information cited in the threads above about Grauer and Keepnews. Maybe from Keepnew's viewpoint, seeing all those albums going out marked "Bill Grauer Production," might have motivated him to start his own personal PR campaign to highlight his own work with the label.

had did Opheum productions come about?

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I had left Riverside when Orpheum came about, but it would not surprise me if Herman Gimbel had something to do with it.

Herman worked at Riverside. I am not sure what he did, but it had to do with the mysterious financial aspects of the operation. Herman came from a wealthy family--they were either the largest or the second largest real estate company in Baltimore. His wife's family also owned either the largest or the second largest real estate firm in that city. In other words, they had that sucker sewed up.

Bill Grauer kept Riverside afloat, albeit barely. I don't know what else they might have been doing, but they were putting out far too many albums (those were also the days of separate stereo and mono releases) and they did not bother to wait for orders from their distributors--they just shipped the stuff out. As might be expected, much of it was eventually shipped back, but the original papers showed what looked like a very brisk business, so I guess that looked good to banks. When albums were returned, they somehow made their way to bins in Sixth Avenue stores that conducted what really amounted to factory sales. I suppose there were such outlets elsewhere, too, but I only saw the ones here in NYC.

Herman was said to have put a lot of money into Riverside and to have taken out a life insurance policy on Bill--just in case. I have no reason to believe that it wasn't so. Naturally, when Bill died, rumor had it that the coffin was filled with rocks and that he was enjoying life in Switzerland. I have no good reason to believe that story.

So, there was Orrin, who knew how to handle a stopwatch but not a business. He rented a very expensive computer (no desktop job in those days) into which a lot of sales and other figures were programed. The computer's job was to generate feasible projected sales, in various categories and by artist, so that over-runs could be avoided. RCA had such a computer at that time and Brad McKuen told me that it sort of worked, but routinely rejected the Star Spangled Banner, because it was not a hot item. It was, however an item that RCA wished to keep in its catalog, so it was just as routinely programed back in.

Getting back to Riverside, Orrin did not trust the computer, so he tended to ignore or take lightly its projections. That was probably just one factor that led to Riverside going belly up not long after Bill Grauer's departure.

The scene eventually shifted to another locale, another company. Herman Gimbel bought Audio-Fidelity Records (hmmmmm) and, next thing we know, Orrin is in that office space with a new label of his own. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but Milestone's roster and reissues definitely had a touch of Riverside. This may have ben where Orpheum Productions came in, but that's mere speculation on my part.

BTW, nobody mentions the Battle label, which Riverside either leased or bought from a Detroit guy named Joe Von Battle (he also had the JVB label). It was a Riverside subsidiary that mainly featured gospel, but I always wondered why the kept it so low key, because there were several Battle albums featuring the Rev. Franklin, and one contained Aretha's first issued recordings. There were also good blues recordings, but I don't know if Bill Grauer arranged to acquire the whole lot or just a handful. I do know that Riverside had the Aretha selections, which were made in her father's church.

Have I edified, or confused? :)

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Thanks, CA, for straightening my wild hares.

Speaking of Riverside Oddball Projects, how about that series of at least a dozen auto racing LPs. (During a blindfold test, how can you tell them apart?)

Also: jazz LPs that played from the INSIDE OUT-- and in colored vinyl.

A Riverside LP that I saw earlier in the week--Songs of the Irish Republican Army.

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