Monk

[Hardbopjazz]

Monk dropped off the scene in the 70's. There’s been many reasons discussed through the years why he stopped doing music, but what do the members here think the reason was?

Edited July 29, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[JSngry]

He got sick. And tired. And sick and tired.

Can't fault him for the latter.

[Jim R]

Sick and tired and uninspired (?). I haven't studied this in depth, but I remember reading / hearing at least one suggestion from a knowledgeable source that he lost the desire to make music. Period. Maybe that falls under the "tired" heading. At any rate, I'm willing to cut generous slack to ANY artist who no longer feels like doing it, for whatever reason- especially if that artist has already done incredible things for an incredible period of time (in jazz, often under incredible societal, economic, and any number of personal pressures). Fortunately for us, most great jazz artists can't stop playing until they're physically incapable.

[RDK]

I'm not sure if this is related/relevent or not, but what was Monk's last original composition? I think the last recordings of his that I have are the Black Lions, and aren't those all covers of standards or his older compositions?

[dave9199]

I think it might've been Green Chimneys from 1967 or 68. That's the only 60's original of his I like. With a constant line up, for a while, I don't think it challenged him and he may have wanted it that way by that time. I don't find Charlie Rouse particularly enthralling. I don't have anything after 5 By Monk By 5. I got that because I liked the work Thad Jones did on it.

[Guest ariceffron]

what did monk do in the 70s and early 80s. did he go out much. i bet he caught a bunch of zeppelin shows. who has read info on what he did after he retired?

[couw]

With a constant line up, for a while, I don't think it challenged him and he may have wanted it that way by that time. I don't find Charlie Rouse particularly enthralling. I don't have anything after 5 By Monk By 5. I got that because I liked the work Thad Jones did on it.

I think it put the challenge on a higher plan. Monk started to hone out his music, really polishing the edges, if that's an expression to be used in case of Monk, and looking for (and usually finding) new things in the old stuff to work with. So he took his own high standards as a base and tried to improve upon that.

[jazzbo]

I've got unofficial recordings from 1972 and 1975 that I really like; Monk seems to be playing VERY WELL and Paul Jeffrey is doing VERY WELL at the head of the Quartet, with Tootie Monk on drums, who gives a different feel to the sessions. . . . There seems to be a new wrinkle to Monk's playing or I may be just imagining it. . . he seems indeed to be sculpting further the compositions as couw suggests. I'm hoping more from this time period will surface on cd; it has been mentioned by a Monk family member/employee that Paul turned over to them about 20 hours of tapes.

[brownie]

His last public appearance was on Sunday July 4, 1976 when he showed up with Barry Harris at an informal party at Bradley's in the Village.

Barry Harris was playing duos on Sundays at Bradley's around that time. Monk was the duo pianist that National Day!

Johnny Griffin also reported that Monk showed up around the same time in a club in New York where Griffin and Illinois Jacquet (on bassoon!) were playing 'Round Mignight'. Monk said he enjoyed Jacquet's playing on bassoon.

Tidbits from 'Blue Monk', a biography of Monk by Jacques Ponzio and Francois Postif published in France (Editions Actes Sud).

[Dan Gould]

I, too, find it interesting that apparently Monk ceased playing at all. I can understand that he would lose interest in public performance, but after living with music his entire adult life, to just stop completely ...

Wasn't in the Straight No Chaser documentary that Monk is described as living in a bedroom (in Nica's house?), and when someone played the piano in the adjoining room, if he liked what he heard, the door opened wider, but if he didn't, the door would close ... so his life wasn't devoid of music, but none came out of him for the last six years or so.

[jazzbo]

I do believe that it is likely depression at work the final years. From what I know from intimate secondhand knowledge of depression, that would fit the facts quite distinctly.

When you get ill and depressed, you do different things with your life than when you are vital and pleased.

Edited July 29, 2004 by jazzbo

[bertrand]

RDK,

There are a couple of improvised pieces on the Black Lion sessions which are labelled as compositions: 'Chordially' and one or two others (titles escape me at the moment).

Whether or not these can be called Monk's last compositions touches on the whole debate of composition vs. improvisation.

Bertrand.

[John L]

If we are to believe the Leslie Gourse biography (believing Leslie Gourse is not usually a good proposition, but she did interview Monk's widow, Nica, and others close to him), Monk suffered from very serious mental illness during his last years.

On the other hand, I have never heard anything recorded by Monk that lacked inspiration. It is only a matter of degree.

[Hardbopjazz]

A few years back, his son, T.S. Monk said on WKCR during a all day Monk fest, that one day in the late 70's, towards the end of his father's time on this earth, he yelled out, while sitting at the kitchen table "When I'm dead people will appreciate my music more, and call me a genius." I remember listening to his son tell this story. I do believe he has been recognized as a genius more since his death then when he was alive. Most, is not all musicuans knew he was a genius, but the general public took longer to put that label on him. It could be he was depressed, at least this is what I got from that quote.

[JSngry]

If we are to believe the Leslie Gourse biography (believing Leslie Gourse is not usually a good proposition, but she did interview Monk's widow, Nica, and others close to him), Monk suffered from very serious mental illness during his last years.

I was involved in a project here in Dallasabout 25 years ago w/Ramsey Ameen, the cat who played violin w/Cecil Taylor back then. He had worked as an aide at Bellevue in the early-mid 1970s, and he mentioned that Monk was a frequent patient/resident there for exactly that reason. Said he wouldn't talk to anybody, just sit in his room and paint pictures of the sky when he did anything at all. Ramsey seemed like a straight-ahead enough kinda guy, and he wasn't trying to outhip anybody by presenting this information. I believed him then, and believe him more now.

If you can believe Gourse's bio even further, this depression/whatever was related to indiscriminate recreational drug use throughout the years. Maybe yes, maybe no. I seriously doubt that this was the sole cause, but if Monk was already leaningthat way for biochemical reasons, it probably didn't help him any.

I can certainly understand why this information hasn't been widely discussed. The stigmas of both mental illness and recreational drug use are still mighty potent, and it would be all too easy for the more sensationalistic elements of society (including "fans") to glom on to this as excuse to denigrate (or celebrate, for that matter) Monk for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with his deep and inate musical brilliance.

Monk was a genius. Period. The rest is secondary.

Edited July 29, 2004 by JSngry

[Hardbopjazz]

His last public appearance was on Sunday July 4, 1976 when he showed up with Barry Harris at an informal party at Bradley's in the Village.

Barry Harris was playing duos on Sundays at Bradley's around that time. Monk was the duo pianist that National Day!

Johnny Griffin also reported that Monk showed up around the same time in a club in New York where Griffin and Illinois Jacquet (on bassoon!) were playing 'Round Mignight'. Monk said he enjoyed Jacquet's playing on bassoon.

Tidbits from 'Blue Monk', a biography of Monk by Jacques Ponzio and Francois Postif published in France (Editions Actes Sud).

Image being in the club to see Barry Harris and Monk takes over the piano. I would have loved to have witness that one.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[Joe]

I feel the archival footage that makes up the bulk of STRAIGHT NO CHASER tells the story of Monk's withdrawal as eloquently as any bio or whatever.

I have never heard anything about recreational drug use on Monk's part before. His 50's arrest has been "spun", as far as I know, into Monk holding certain substances for certain persons, in effect being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not using per se. Then again, I was trusting the word of Harry Colomby, Orrin Keepnews and TIME magazine, so I'm no doubt ripe for the disabusing (nothing new there).

Monk also basically moved in with Nica De Koenigswarter out in Weehawken, NJ during his final years, no?

[Jim R]

If we are to believe the Leslie Gourse biography (believing Leslie Gourse is not usually a good proposition, but she did interview Monk's widow, Nica, and others close to him), Monk suffered from very serious mental illness during his last years.

On the other hand, I have never heard anything recorded by Monk that lacked inspiration. It is only a matter of degree.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought Monk's later work was uninspired. I didn't mean to suggest that, even in a general way. My use of the word "uninspired" was strictly in the context of his motivation/energy/desire to make any music at all. Monk was not a cat who made compromises, and he liked to call his own shots. The notion that he made a (sane) decision to stop playing doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me. But I'm no expert on the subject.

BTW, your use of the phrase "a matter of degree" reminds me... mental illness is a matter of degree (not to mention subjective, controversial, etc etc). Difficult to look at all this with much confidence, let alone certainty...

[John L]

Jim: Fair enough!

[ghost of miles]

I feel the archival footage that makes up the bulk of STRAIGHT NO CHASER tells the story of Monk's withdrawal as eloquently as any bio or whatever.

I have never heard anything about recreational drug use on Monk's part before. His 50's arrest has been "spun", as far as I know, into Monk holding certain substances for certain persons, in effect being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not using per se. Then again, I was trusting the word of Harry Colomby, Orrin Keepnews and TIME magazine, so I'm no doubt ripe for the disabusing (nothing new there).

Monk also basically moved in with Nica De Koenigswarter out in Weehawken, NJ during his final years, no?

I think we'll learn a lot more about that 1950s arrest when & if Peter Pullman's Bud Powell bio comes out. Hopefully, too, we'll learn more about Monk's entire life, including his last few years, when Robin Kelley's book is published. Sometimes visionary artists end in a silence that can be interpreted as either profound or bleak (I'm thinking of William Blake--wasn't he relatively quiet for the last few years of his life?), and that probably stem from a variety of factors.

Basically, I think that Monk never did anything that he didn't want to do--and when he didn't feel like playing music anymore, he stopped. Sad if depression/exhaustion of vision were the causes, but I admire his integrity.

[mikeweil]

I think there was a very individual set of causes involved, and all the factors mentioned contributed to his withdrawal. But Ghost's last paragraph probably is the closest to the truth, IMHO.

[Shrdlu]

He just got tired of not being understood by so many, and decided that he had had enough.

There was definitely also a mixture of physical and mental problems. I saw him backstage with a medical friend of mine when he was touring with the "Giants of Jazz". He was sitting on a sofa, very withdrawn, his eyes rolling upwards in a strange way. My friend commented that he had lost motor control. On the tour, he stayed mainly in his hotel room when not performing or traveling, and Diz would send some ice-cream in for him. He played purely by reflex, and the repertoire had to be limited to things that he knew well. Jaki Byard was on the tour as backup pianist for the sextet, but I don't think he was ever needed in that capacity; instead, he performed some solo items.

It wasn't until much later that I got to hear the Black Lion recordings, made at the end of that tour. They are remarkably good, and there is no hint of any health problems.

[mikeweil]

It wasn't until much later that I got to hear the Black Lion recordings, made at the end of that tour. They are remarkably good, and there is no hint of any health problems.

If one listens to the Black Lion sessions, there is not a trace of uncertainty. Some of the Giants of Jazz material I have heard sounds more like that.

[sidewinder]

On the tour, he stayed mainly in his hotel room when not performing or traveling, and Diz would send some ice-cream in for him.

I recall a mention (either in the biography or the 'Chaser' film) that he stayed for days on end in his room in Nica de Koenigswarter's appartment. If my memory is right, that place was also totally over-run with cats and overlooked the Hudson..

[ghost of miles]

And believe it or not, he had no desire to talk to Orrin Keepnews!