Greatest songwriter in last 50 years?

[Jazzmoose]

Burt Bachrach belongs on that list too, AFAIC.

Well, I'm certainly glad someone remembers him!

As personal favorites, I'd go with Ray Davies and Elvis Costello, but Bachrach is the name that popped into my head when I read the title of the thread.

[maren]

Stevie Wonder's only gotten one mention. That's downright sad. Sangry once again proves his wisdom on this board. Stevie's use of harmony is at least as complex as about 95% of the jazzers of the world. And his songs are just downright excellent.

While we're speaking of modern funk and R&B guys, how about Prince? Another monster songwriter, and most certainly deserving of more nod's than just mine.

The only name(s) I singled out for seconding was the BeeGees because Wolff said something like "don't shoot me."

Stevie Wonder is definitely at the top of my list -- but I think there are at least 10 (maybe 20) in the "top" slot!!! Prince, Ray Davies, Marvin Gaye, Burt Bacharach, Henry Mancini, Joni Mitchell, Lennon/McCartney (I could recycle practically every name already mentioned).

Otis Redding may not measure up in terms of quantity (he was only 37 when that plane crashed) but is way up there in quality: "R-E-S-P-E-C-T" (to name just one).

[danasgoodstuff]

William 'Smokey' Robinson

Willie Nelson

comments to be added later

[Hardbopjazz]

Sid vicious and Johnny Lydon.

[Shawn]

I'll second that James Taylor nod.....

and I'll also give a big thumbs up to Nick Drake!

Edited August 2, 2004 by Shawn

[RDK]

Hmmm. Did anyone mention Monk and Mingus? On the early end of that 50 year period but nevertheless....

[Sundog]

Becker/Fagen?  Absolutely great.  Their worst songs trump most other songwriters' best works, and their best stuff deserves to be listed along with the absolute best of the best, no matter the time period.

A hip choice, but I ain't buying it. When's the last time you were walking down the street and heard someone singing a Steely Dan song? Now, Stevie Wonder on the other hand.... B-)

Bob Marley anyone?

[Jim R]

I'll continue to play the "old guy" role here (even though I grew up with rock in the 60's)...

Johnny Mandel.

[JSngry]

I'm a-wonderin' if some of these nominations might not a-be a-based on the power of individual performance and or recordings rather than the craft displayed in the actual songs themselves. A good/great record and/or a stirring anthem is not the same as a great SONG, unless somebody's moved the fences in quite a bit (or gone a step further and a-moved the game inside to a domed stadium where it's always airconditioned and never rains) in the afore a-mentioned 50 years.

In all frankness, most pop songs of the 20th century aren't too much more than cleverly crafted ditties with lyrics that appeal to the common bond inside all of our soft little heads. It's usually a powerful rendition (or a series of renditions), that gets us to thinking "wow, this is a GREAT song!!!" Well, yeah, sure, ok. whatever. What it is is a great VEHICLE, which I guess you could argue is the same thing, but I'm a-thinkin' that maybe it's a-not. Nice tits, a good ass, and a curvaceous figure don't necessarily gurantee deep beauty. they just guarantee a certain, level of uh... "attraction", if you know what I mean, and most songs are like that. You can love 'em, even move in with them, but would you want them to be the mother of your children?

And lest I be accused of getting in over my head in the shallow waters of elitism, let me say that for my money, "96 Tears" is one of the greatest events of the Rock Era, and that I'll put it up against any number of more "sophisiticated" pieces of music of the same time frame in terms of immediate impact, replay satisfaction, and a-getting inside your head forever in a good kind of way. But is it really that good of a SONG?

You be a-tellin' me.

[couw]

as Frank Zappa explains:

"Here's another thing that you can do on the piano, if you have one around. If you get tired of playing "Home On The Range," by colors uh, you have to learn two different kinds of backgrounds. You can do 'em both in the key of C and you'll be alright. The first one is like this . . .

[plong plong plong plongplong plong plong plong plongplong plong plong plong plongpling]

"That one's pretty easy to master, and then there's another one which isn't too tricky either . . .

[plong plong plongplongplong plong plong plongplongplong plong plong plongplongploing]

"Now, those uh, backgrounds, those two backgrounds will work for, oh, I think it's a total of fifteen thousand different rock'n'roll songs that you can all sing at parties."

[couw]

okay, here 'tis:

Frank Zappa explains (160Kb mp3)

Frank Zappa gives a practical example (120 Kb mp3)

[Sundog]

But is it really that good of a SONG?

You be a-tellin' me.

I happen to like it very much, but it ain't no Waterloo Sunset. Then again, no one is ever going to claim that Waterloo Sunset is "the" song that launched a 1000 garage bands. But there this little ditty called You Really Got Me.... You may of heard it? B-)

[RDK]

I happen to like it very much, but it ain't no Waterloo Sunset. Then again, no one is ever going to claim that Waterloo Sunset is "the" song that launched a 1000 garage bands. But there this little ditty called You Really Got Me.... You may of heard it? B-)

[JSngry]

But there this little ditty called You Really Got Me.... You may of heard it? B-)

Yeah, I may have... I may have even performed it a time or two...thousand

Another great, defining moment.

But is it a great SONG?

(and could we consider the possibility that "great songs" are sorta NOT the point of stuff like this? That whether or not it's a great "song" is besides the point? That would be doing everybody a favor, it seems to me.)

[Sundog]

(and could we consider the possibility that "great songs" are sorta NOT the point of stuff like this? That whether or not it's a great "song" is besides the point? That would be doing everybody a favor, it seems to me.)

Fair enough.

Maybe the real question is how do you measure the "greatness" of a songwriter?

[JSngry]

Good question, and ultimately it comes down to wholly subjective criteria, criteria which will inevitably reflect the tastes of the selector.

Myself, I prefer to think of a "great song" as one in which conventions of melody and harmony are alluded to, even used, but also stretched, ignored even, when called for in service of the songwriter's "muse.

In other words, a "great song" for me is one which is written by a songwriter who knows exactly what they are doing, and the end product is an imperceptible blend of consummate craft and inspired creativity.

Also worth saying that my definition of "songs" and "songwriters" is pretty much limited to the realm of "popular" music, not jazz or classical composition, and that for me, "great songs" and "great music" are different things entirely, although there's often enough an intersect.

Can you get more subjective than that?

[Leeway]

First of all- songs equal music and lyrics, no? On that definition, I offer the following:

Lennon/McCartney- absolutely. I was recently listening to Rubber Soul, Revolver, Beatles for Sale, Help!- just those albums alone yield dozens of gems. I was reminded what genius these two had in their creative time. The whole corpus of works is unparalleled.

Bob Dylan- songs of enduring influence.

Add my vote for the Bee Gees- dozens and dozens of excellent pop songs.

Others that come to mind: Chuck Berry; the Beach Boys, Jagger/Richards

[JohnJ]

Agree with Jobim and Bacharach. Dylan too. In the field of rock I consider Lou Reed to be at least as good as any songwriter mentioned so far.

Also, more in the Cole Porter tradition, I think Cy Coleman is worth consideration.

[Shawn]

Ah, Leeway...you got to Chuck Berry first! Damn, I was going to post that!

Anyway, let me say that if Chuck ain't considered a "great" songwriter...I'll eat my guitar! Well...maybe not...but damn he wrote some unforgettable tunes.

I'll also throw in Curtis Mayfield....

As far as Jim's post regarding "is it a great SONG?"....I haven't a clue, I don't have the music education background to be considered a real "critic". I think he's 100% correct that it's a totally subjective discussion.

Here's the way I look at it...the only opinion that really matters is your own...if you get moved by the Sex Pistols singing "No Feelings"...SO BE IT!!! Then, it's a great fucking song...to the only critic that matters. It's fun to see people's choices in these types of discussions...gives you a little insight into their head, sometimes share a common experience that a certain song or performer has inspired in you. But in the end, that magical song could have been "Wango Tango" by Ted Nugent! And we all know what a GENIUS he was!!

But...if someone forced me at gunpoint to tell them what I thought made a great song...GREAT...it would probably come out something like..."It's memorable, sounds timeless and inspired others". Not exactly a scientific approach (because the same criteria could be used to describe commercial jingles) but I'm stickin' to it.

Edited August 3, 2004 by Shawn

[RDK]

While discussing Bacharach, please don't forget Hal David. He wrote a bunch of them words, you know...

[Brad]

Pick out almost any song on Rubber Soul or Revolver and you have a great song by whatever definition you want to make up, be it the Sangry one or whatever formula you can come up with. The same goes for many Stones albums of the early to mid 60s, especially Behind the Buttons, one of my favorite albums of all times.

[Sundog]

Good question, and ultimately it comes down to wholly subjective criteria, criteria which will inevitably reflect the tastes of the selector.

Myself, I prefer to think of a "great song" as one in which conventions of melody and harmony are alluded to, even used, but also stretched, ignored even, when called for in service of the songwriter's "muse.

In other words, a "great song" for me is one which is written by a songwriter who knows exactly what they are doing, and the end product is an imperceptible blend of consummate craft and inspired creativity.

Also worth saying that my definition of "songs" and "songwriters" is pretty much limited to the realm of "popular" music, not jazz or classical composition, and that for me, "great songs" and "great music" are different things entirely, although there's often enough an intersect.

Can you get more subjective than that? 

Well said. I would just add that songwriters who express a wide range of emotions in their work always keep me interested.

[JSngry]

Well, ok. I admit that I've gotten kinda dorky about how I view the whole matter of "songs" and "songwriters" the last few years or so, mainly due to an expanding awareness and appreciation of non-jazz singers who nevertheless deliver artful interpretations of the so-called Great American Songbook. So whenever I hear the phrase "great songwriter" or such, that's the perspective I reflexively come from, just because I've really developed an awareness/appreciation of the craft involved in that realm, a craft that is "different" (but indeed, not always better) from other types of songwriting, probably due to its roots in musical theatre.

I mean, hey - I heard Andy Williams doing "On The Street Where You Live" on the radio last weekend, and it was superb. Just a few years ago, I'd have not gotten past "I have often walked" before switching the station.

OTOH, the craft that Chuck Berry displays in his writing is every bit as connsumate as that that all those guys displayed in theirs, so yeah, it all IS good.

OTOH again, though, how Chuck Berrys or Smokey Robinsons are there? Not very, that's how many. I still believe in practicing discernment and discrimination regardless of idiom. I'm just open to more idioms than I used to be.

Now if we want to talk about a skillful use of words to effectively tell a story and the construction of chord sequences that reinforce the flow of the lyrical narrative, hell, you gotta talk about Bill Gaither. Corny as hell, sure, and the subject matter automatically limits the audience, but viewed objectively, the guy does what he does just about as well as it can be done. I'm no fan of the stuff, not even slightly, but chops is chops, and in his realm, he definitely has them. I've stumbled across some of those Homecoming shows whilst channel surfing, and when I don't automatically go on through, I'll hear one of his originals, and I'm consistently struck by how perfectly crafted his songs are for what it is they're aiming to do.

[Jim R]

I heard Andy Williams doing "On The Street Where You Live" on the radio last weekend, and it was superb.

I'm amazed by Andy Williams sometimes. Now, I'll admit he did record some schlock from time to time, but there are also some jaw-dropping performances, IMO. With pipes like that, all he had to do was find that right combination of great song, great arrangement, and the right feeling. Jim, I don't know if you're already familiar with it, but if not, check out his version of "Maria" sometime. Wear headphones, if possible- you'll get a better sense of the dynamics that way... and you won't blow out any windows.

[Jim Alfredson]

Neil Diamond.

At least according to the guys in Saving Silverman.