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Roy Hargrove - Hard Groove


pryan

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Anyone around these parts thinking of picking this one up? I have a bunch of Roy's discs (about 6 with him as a leader, I think) and have been looking forward to hearing his new one for a while now. I really dig his playing and have begun to discover how he has drawn on a wide variety of trumpet players, who have come before him, to develop his own 'style'. I hope to see him live one day, as I've heard his quintet really cooks in a live setting.

HARD GROOVE, as some probably know already, features Common (the rapper) along with a variety of vocalists and other musicians not normally associated within the 'jazz' realm. Here's a link to the Verve page, that includes some sound samples: LINK Has a lot of soul jazz leanings and some good grooves, at least from the clips I've listened to.

Anyways, I'd like to hear some people's thoughts on Roy's new disc, if they're so inclined to pick it up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's an interesting record, certainly not what a hard bop fan would expect from one of the young lions (though they all seem to be branching out these days, wait till Nicholas Payton's new one hits the streets this August!). That said, I think it's very well done, in fact, it's exceptionally well done, especially from a production standpoint. Like I said, it's not a hard bop record, I'm not sure if I'd call it a jazz record, though parts certainly are jazz. It's a little jazz, a little funk, a lot of neo-soul / r&b, with a hint of hip hop. Roy's playing obviously takes a backseat on some of the tracks to the vocals, etc, but on others, he's on fire. Still, this isn't the kind of record you want to buy if you want to hear a blowing session. I think Roy described it in Downbeat as a party record, and I think that's a good description of it. Roy certainly sounds like he's having fun, which one some of his other records doesn't always happen. When I first heard it, on an advance sampler, I didn't like what I heard, but the finished product is really well done, better than I had expected in fact. It's selling well too. In the first week, it sold 5,600 copies, which is exceptionally good.

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It's selling well too. In the first week, it sold 5,600 copies, which is exceptionally good.

I'm glad for Hargrove and whoever else is involved, but in some ways the good sales is bad news. I mean, according to Jazz Times Greg Osby's Blue Notes only sell 5000 total. Good sales will probably only encourage companies to follow the same formula--light on the jazz, heavy on the hip hop, record scratching and whatever else sells. I have no interest in this type of fusion.

Edited by montg
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I'm surprised Osby sells that much! People would be shocked if they found out how few units a lot of well known jazz musicians actually move. That's not to say that you have to do a fusion record to get good sales. Regina Carter's new disc is doing incredibly well, it sold 5,000 in one week, and knocked Norah Jones off the #1 spot at Amazon for the first time in weeks. The thing is, in order to sell, it seems that more than anything else, an album needs to have a compelling story behind it (and be somewhat accessible). Another album of standards or hard bop tunes by a 19 year old trumpet player isn't going to do well anymore, at least not right now, or not well enough for a major record label. People will buy the reissue instead.

Now, say what you want about record companies, but I think this album was Roy's baby, though Verve certainly didn't try to stop him. I asked Roy back in 98 about what he wanted to do in the future - the first thing he said was a strings record, the second was some sort of jazz funk electonic record. The good thing about Roy is, he's still got the quintet, and is still doing the bop thing, and I think will keep doing the bop thing, even if this project does really well. By the way, there is no "scratching" on this record (at least that I remember). And there's very little hip hop - freestyles by Common and by Q-tip.

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Finally some comments, thanks Joe M. That's nice for Roy, 5600 sold is pretty good going. I wonder if this is drawing some pop/hiphop/rap listeners into the fray that normally wouldn't even browse the jazz section. Maybe that's why I'm not finding it: perhaps it's not even IN the jazz sections of stores. I doubt that, though, since all of the other Hargrove discs would be in the jazz section.

Personally, I believe Roy when he says that he's wanted to do this sort of project for a long time. Doesn't make 'sense' (cents?) to stay in a hard bop rut forever, although Hardbop Heaney would sure like him to.

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Well, I finally found it (HARD GROOVE) today and it was in the jazz section. I've only spun it once, so I'll try to save the majority of my comments for later, when I've had some time to "digest" it.

But on first glance, at least, this album surprised me in a good way. There's some manipulation of Hargrove's trumpet via electronics that may not appeal to some listeners, but I think for the most part it's done skillfully and within the context of the particular tune(s). Another thing that stood out, to me, is that this album does seem "genuine", not at all a toss off effort to branch out into more popular musics. Roy's vision here is pure and simple: he wants to do his own thing, having fun being a top priority.

More on the music later, and if anyone else has this please chime in with your comments: positive, negative, or otherwise.

Edited by pryan
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Well, based on what I've read so far, I decided to order it from CD Universe. Probably won't get it for a couple of weeks since I put it on an order with some stuff that's coming out on the 10th. I like some of the stuff that leans toward hip-hop and dance rhythms - not as a steady diet, but certainly as a nice, fun diversion. I'm also digging the hell out the new Truffaz record. While not dance or hip-hop by any means, I like the way he uses electronics to alter the sound of his trumpet. I'd like to hear what Hargrove has to offer in this area,

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Well, I just sampled this from start to finish at a web site. (Normally I'd include a URL but this is a Korean site that requires registration and software download).

If one expects anything inspring from this effort, the disappointment is in order. It's no different from Miles' Doo Bop or Buckshot LaFonque's two CDs. Not better, not worse. I imagine the rap tracks were recorded separately ... but the instrumental tracks, improvisions they may be, do not rise above the background roles often.

Of course, there are redeeming qualities abound. Hargrove sounds inspired in spots and the grooves are solid most of the time. Guest vocals add some flavors to the proceedings as well. Generally, I preferred the tracks without the rappers. It's not that I do not like listening to rap, but the lyrics simply are not interesting.

I'd probably give this another shot at a later date ... but I'm holding off on purchasing it for now.

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Well, I just sampled this from start to finish at a web site. (Normally I'd include a URL but this is a Korean site that requires registration and software download).

If one expects anything inspring from this effort, the disappointment is in order. It's no different from Miles' Doo Bop or Buckshot LaFonque's two CDs. Not better, not worse. I imagine the rap tracks were recorded separately ... but the instrumental tracks, improvisions they may be, do not rise above the background roles often.

Of course, there are redeeming qualities abound. Hargrove sounds inspired in spots and the grooves are solid most of the time. Guest vocals add some flavors to the proceedings as well. Generally, I preferred the tracks without the rappers. It's not that I do not like listening to rap, but the lyrics simply are not interesting.

I'd probably give this another shot at a later date ... but I'm holding off on purchasing it for now.

So these negative comments are based on your "sampling" of the album on some website. That you can even compare this to DOO BOP, and say it's basically just as good or bad, seems absurd to me. Such a comparison is impossible (IMO), because most importantly, YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HEARD THE ALBUM IN ITS ENTIRETY YET.

I really think it's a lot better than what your rather hasty comments indicate.

Ed, HARD GROOVE surely is a fun album. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.

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Well, I just sampled this from start to finish at a web site. (Normally I'd include a URL but this is a Korean site that requires registration and software download).

If one expects anything inspring from this effort, the disappointment is in order. It's no different from Miles' Doo Bop or Buckshot LaFonque's two CDs. Not better, not worse. I imagine the rap tracks were recorded separately ... but the instrumental tracks, improvisions they may be, do not rise above the background roles often.

Of course, there are redeeming qualities abound. Hargrove sounds inspired in spots and the grooves are solid most of the time. Guest vocals add some flavors to the proceedings as well. Generally, I preferred the tracks without the rappers. It's not that I do not like listening to rap, but the lyrics simply are not interesting.

I'd probably give this another shot at a later date ... but I'm holding off on purchasing it for now.

So these negative comments are based on your "sampling" of the album on some website. That you can even compare this to DOO BOP, and say it's basically just as good or bad, seems absurd to me. Such a comparison is impossible (IMO), because most importantly, YOU HAVEN'T EVEN HEARD THE ALBUM IN ITS ENTIRETY YET.

I really think it's a lot better than what your rather hasty comments indicate.

Ed, HARD GROOVE surely is a fun album. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.

Pryan, practice your reading skills. Saying "from start to finish" means I listened to this album in its entirety. Sorry my opinion offended you. What do you have against Doo Bop, by the way? It is better than you seem to imply in your offhand dismissal of my opinion.

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Pryan, practice your reading skills. Saying "from start to finish" means I listened to this album in its entirety. Sorry my opinion offended you. What do you have against Doo Bop, by the way? It is better than you seem to imply in your offhand dismissal of my opinion.

Sorry, St. V, it was late and I posted hastily. Still, I think it's tough to pass such a judgment (as yours) after only one listen.

I have nothing against DOO BOP, although it's not on the list of my favorite Miles albums. If you read my post correctly you will notice that I say nothing negative about DOO BOP, only that I find it hard for you to compare the two albums.

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No need to be sorry, pryan. Just wanted to clear up the point.

I did go back and gave it a second try after I posted my initial message last night.

It's not that I do not like the album, and I did have some positive things to say about it above. ... It's just that I do not find it compelling enough to recommend it to others.

Doo Bop and Buckshot LaFonque were just used as reference points, since they are two obvious examples of the genre RH explores. I wasn't implying RH took either as inspiration (though he did play on the Marsalis project), but you cannot fault me for using those to make comparisons of works attempting to incorporate funk and hip-hop music with jazz and/or fusion.

The oft-made criticism on these projects is that they end up compromising the integrity of one or both genres. Some jazzers find improvisations being inhibited by stiff hip-hop beats and raps, and some fault the compositions for being not complicated enough to provide players with something to bite ... Hip-hoppers and funksters often find the improvisations distracting and the grooves uninspired.

Are the hip-hop and funk elements as compelling as the others in the genres? Are the improvisations as interesting and inspiring as those I find on the artists' previous works? Are compositions good enough to both entertain and inspire? These are some of the criteria I use when evaluating these projects.

Then again, I could crystallize all criteria with the question, "Did the music entertain and inspire me?" The answer, for now, is no.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's an interesting record, certainly not what a hard bop fan would expect from one of the young lions (though they all seem to be branching out these days, wait till Nicholas Payton's new one hits the streets this August!). That said, I think it's very well done, in fact, it's exceptionally well done, especially from a production standpoint. Like I said, it's not a hard bop record, I'm not sure if I'd call it a jazz record, though parts certainly are jazz. It's a little jazz, a little funk, a lot of neo-soul / r&b, with a hint of hip hop. Roy's playing obviously takes a backseat on some of the tracks to the vocals, etc, but on others, he's on fire. Still, this isn't the kind of record you want to buy if you want to hear a blowing session. I think Roy described it in Downbeat as a party record, and I think that's a good description of it. Roy certainly sounds like he's having fun, which one some of his other records doesn't always happen. When I first heard it, on an advance sampler, I didn't like what I heard, but the finished product is really well done, better than I had expected in fact. It's selling well too. In the first week, it sold 5,600 copies, which is exceptionally good.

Well I finally received my copy of this one the other day and have listened to it a couple of times. Joe M sums it up nicely. ...."Like I said, it's not a hard bop record, I'm not sure if I'd call it a jazz record, though parts certainly are jazz. It's a little jazz, a little funk, a lot of neo-soul / r&b, with a hint of hip hop"

It took me a few listens to really begin to dig it. I think that's because they go right from the opening track which is right up my alley to some rap number featuring some cat named Common on vocals. What's up with that name? :rolleyes: I guess it shows how far I'm out of touch with mainstream music. Turns out that is my least favorite track on the album.

I like the rest of the album a lot for what it is - entertaining, danceable, fun. I find a nice soulful vibe throughout, some nice rhythms and enough of a jazz feel to keep me happy. I'm definitely adding this to the party mix. I think my non jazz loving friends will dig the hell out of this.

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I tried this one out, but couldn't hear the magic. As far as the hip hop/funk/jazz fusion is concerned, is there anything innovative going on here. Most of it sounds to me like it could have been recorded 10 years ago. On first listen, none of the material grabbed me either.

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As far as the hip hop/funk/jazz fusion is concerned, is there anything innovative going on here.

Nothing innovative from my standpoint either. I was actually a little disappointed in that respect - I mean from a creativity standpoint. I was expecting something a little more adventurous. But nonetheless, I like it for what it is and I know I'll be spinning it at some point during the summer barbecue season.

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