Dan Gould Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Although I do wonder whatever became of the Ark of the Covenant - cats were running around like crazy with it for a while, and then all of a sudden it's like it never existed. It's almost as if a different generation of writers took over the gig and left all that legend stuff behind! The ark was raptured out of the earth when Nebuchadnezzar's armies invaded Jerusalem and destroyed Solomon's Temple (where, of course, the ark was housed, in the most holy place). It is seen in Heaven in Revelation 11:19: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament ... " Wow, things get "raptured out" just like people? So I guess this "Rapture" thing isn't like the time travel device in The Terminator movies, right? You remember, Reece wasn't a techie, but he knew that only living tissue could go through .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Wow, things get "raptured out" just like people? Yeah dude. God likes things. That's why you should give the church your money. God digs money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
take5 Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Another point about this punshment for several generations is that God, being God, knows what each of us will do in the future. Thus, if an individual, or nation, is going to be only evil in the future, then God sometimes makes them suffer right from birth. Wow... God making children suffer right from birth. That's some swell religion ya got there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 (edited) Imagine you are an Mbuti tribesman who has resided in the African jungle for all of his years. Upon death you arrive at the Christian incarnation of heaven's gates, where Saint Peter begins the interrogation. You are asked if you have accepted Christ as your savior, to which you can't respond since you can't understand any of the language you are being addressed with. Do you burn in Hell by virtue of having no contact with the Christian world? Imagine you are a Buddhist Monk who has grown up in the very successful Asian society with its own history and own religious identity and own sense of spirituality. All of the authoritative figures of your Buddhist society share your religious views. Are you really going to take a foreign, European religious identity over the one that has been established in your society for thousands of years? God hates Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and those isolated from Christianity? I declare shenanigans. Edited August 21, 2004 by Noj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 I said my piece on this subject here, if anyone's interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 We have very similar views, Joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 I said my piece on this subject here, if anyone's interested. I assume you posted your view in the political forum. Those who asked to be "banned" from that forum can't read it, so perhaps you could post it again here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Don't want to keep Hans and the others in suspense, so here's Joe's comments... "Why on Earth would God create a world in which Her children needed a mediator? If I want to speak to my parents, I pick up the phone or drive to their house and do so. No mediator required. It shouldn't be any different with my Creator. If it's true that we do need Christ as a mediator, than what of the billions of people who lived and died during the last 2000 years in a time and place that never heard of Christ or the Bible (like the entire Western Hemisphere until the Europeans came some 1500 years A.D.)? The devil's trick, you say? If you are certain that the religion which you happen to belong to is of the one true God, than the followers of all other religions (or those who follow no religion) are unsaved, heathens, infidels, "the other", etc., which puts God on your side, thus allowing you to feel justifed in eradicating them, or at best subduing and converting them for their own good (think of how the Europeans treated the indigenous peoples of this land for instance). If, on the other hand, you are certain that all religions contain the same basic universal truths, and that every human being on the planet is worthy of God's love just as they are, then you don't need to save them or hate them. You see them as the absolute equals that they are. Look, Shrdlu, you seem like a pleasant enough fellow. I feel like if I met you, and we talked about anything but religion, we'd get along just fine. The problem I have is that while you say you respect other's right to believe as they choose, you are also telling us that you are right and we are wrong. That's not respect. Respect would be to admit that you don't know the mind and intention of God for certain any more than I do. It's an unfathomable mystery. But at the same time, it's very simple: My friend, you are already enlightened. You already have absolute security. You already have peace of mind and all of the resources you need to fulfill your creative purpose. There is only one thing that you do not have. And that is the awareness that all this is true. This, to me, is essentially what Christ, Buddha, Lao Tse, and all the other high beings from every culture came to remind us of. Because either we all have the key, or none of us does. How can it be any other way? Peace" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 My personal feeling on all this...I'm just going to let it go. I'm sure there are some here who feel that I've been disrespectful to Shrdlu (I'll cop a guilty plea; I'm disrespectful to everyone at one point or another) or that I can't stand him (not true), and while I'm pretty certain that Shrdlu understands where I'm coming from, I imagine there are some here that don't. So, I'm going to try to just pass on these religious discussions from now on. I'm sure everyone here has pretty much figured out that I'm an agnostic who, if forced to chose his best pick would give the nod to athiesm (although some may incorrectly think that I am a confirmed athiest like Alexander; no, what he and I have in common is more of a disdain for organized religion. I think.) so there's really no point in my contributing to these discussions anymore. This much I believe: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and any other codified religion are nothing more than a string of myths. Did Jesus exist? Maybe. However, what does it matter when the Sermon on the Mount and darned near any other important info in the bible appeared elsewhere first? Personally, I think this is all somewhat interesting, but about as unimportant as it gets, and that's probably the big difference between me and the Christians here (and Alexander). If you enjoy your religion, go for it. But don't expect me to take a deep interest in your hobby; I really don't care that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 I want to let it go. That is, I'm striving to get to the point with my beliefs where I am comfortable and secure enough in them that I don't feel the need to defend myself or attack another (even mildly) when they express contrary beliefs. That just seems opposed to the whole concept and purpose of philosophy/spirituality/religion. Sharing is one thing, trying to win an argument is another. I'm getting closer to that point, I think. People who, in my view, go to one extreme or the other can still get my dander up. I guess that just goes to show I still have a ways to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 People can be SO silly sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 "That's silly!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Lightning Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Although I do wonder whatever became of the Ark of the Covenant - cats were running around like crazy with it for a while, and then all of a sudden it's like it never existed. It's almost as if a different generation of writers took over the gig and left all that legend stuff behind! The ark was raptured out of the earth when Nebuchadnezzar's armies invaded Jerusalem and destroyed Solomon's Temple (where, of course, the ark was housed, in the most holy place). It is seen in Heaven in Revelation 11:19: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament ... " No one knows where the ark is. Ethiopian Christians are saying the ark is hidden in one of the churches in Ethiopia, brought by the queen of Sheba after her visit to King Solomon. Others believes it is hidden in the Valtican vaults (do they actually have vaults there?) Personally, I believe Harrison Ford got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 People can be SO silly sometimes! Was I being silly just then? Silly me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 People can be SO silly sometimes! Was I being silly just then? Silly me. This whole thread is silly, really. Fun and heartfelt on all sides, but ultimately silly. Nothing is being proved except the limits of the human imagination, and the folly of reveling in that limitation. Denying the possibility of the unexplainable is silly (are any of us so fucking smart that we can authoritatively state where "reality" REALLY ends? Yeah, SURE you are.. ) , and so is claiming to be able to authoritatively "explain" it ("peace that passes all human understanding" kinda rules out being able to explain it in rational terms, dig? It might indeed be a peace based entirely on myth and superstition. If that's gonna bother you, then leave it alone! Beides, if you claim it's unexplianable, stick to your guns! ) And I'm silly for even commenting on it. BOOGABOOGA!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Although I do wonder whatever became of the Ark of the Covenant - cats were running around like crazy with it for a while, and then all of a sudden it's like it never existed. It's almost as if a different generation of writers took over the gig and left all that legend stuff behind! The ark was raptured out of the earth when Nebuchadnezzar's armies invaded Jerusalem and destroyed Solomon's Temple (where, of course, the ark was housed, in the most holy place). It is seen in Heaven in Revelation 11:19: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament ... " Wow, things get "raptured out" just like people? So I guess this "Rapture" thing isn't like the time travel device in The Terminator movies, right? You remember, Reece wasn't a techie, but he knew that only living tissue could go through .... That's not all, Dan. In Numbers 10:33-38, the thing actually flies before the children of Israel, leading them through the desert. God raptured it out as there was no way he was going to let the Chaldeans get their hands on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Imagine you are an Mbuti tribesman who has resided in the African jungle for all of his years. Upon death you arrive at the Christian incarnation of heaven's gates, where Saint Peter begins the interrogation. You are asked if you have accepted Christ as your savior, to which you can't respond since you can't understand any of the language you are being addressed with. Do you burn in Hell by virtue of having no contact with the Christian world? Imagine you are a Buddhist Monk who has grown up in the very successful Asian society with its own history and own religious identity and own sense of spirituality. All of the authoritative figures of your Buddhist society share your religious views. Are you really going to take a foreign, European religious identity over the one that has been established in your society for thousands of years? God hates Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and those isolated from Christianity? I declare shenanigans. As Jesus would say, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures." (With respect.) The expression "the Christian world" has no meaning, and Jesus and the gospel are not a "foreign European religious identity". The gospel is for the whole world, and was first preached in Israel. And it isn't a religion, as salvation is offered as a free gift: religions say (falsely) that you have to try to earn it yourself. God knows in advance who will accept the gospel, given the opportunity, and he gets that gospel to each person in their own language. (The Bible will translate into any language.) The stuff about heaven's gates and Peter is not Biblical. A person decides here on earth whether or not to accept Jesus as Saviour, and then, if saved, goes straight into heaven on death (or the rapture) without any interrogation. And it has nothing to do with Peter, although he will already be there as one of millions of saved people. God does not hate Mbutis, or Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus. He "so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) Many people, in many ethnic groups and many religions, have gotten saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Another point about this punshment for several generations is that God, being God, knows what each of us will do in the future. Thus, if an individual, or nation, is going to be only evil in the future, then God sometimes makes them suffer right from birth. Wow... God making children suffer right from birth. That's some swell religion ya got there... T'ain't no religion. Religions are worthless. And it's God's business if some nations, including children, suffer. As I said, he knows what people will do when they grow up. If you are not suffering, be very grateful. None of us deserves anything good from God at all. Children are not "innocent little darlings": they are baby sinners. As an extreme example, Hitler was once a little cutie, being bounced on Momma's knee. But, I hasten to say that God loves his creation, man, and wants us all to be happy and well cared for. All he asks is that we turn to him and obey him. He has the right to ask that, as he is King of kings and Lord of lords. He da boss. I am very grateful for his mercy to me, as I know that I am a sinful abomination, worthy of nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Don't want to keep Hans and the others in suspense, so here's Joe's comments... "Why on Earth would God create a world in which Her children needed a mediator? If I want to speak to my parents, I pick up the phone or drive to their house and do so. No mediator required. It shouldn't be any different with my Creator. If it's true that we do need Christ as a mediator, than what of the billions of people who lived and died during the last 2000 years in a time and place that never heard of Christ or the Bible (like the entire Western Hemisphere until the Europeans came some 1500 years A.D.)? The devil's trick, you say? If you are certain that the religion which you happen to belong to is of the one true God, than the followers of all other religions (or those who follow no religion) are unsaved, heathens, infidels, "the other", etc., which puts God on your side, thus allowing you to feel justifed in eradicating them, or at best subduing and converting them for their own good (think of how the Europeans treated the indigenous peoples of this land for instance). If, on the other hand, you are certain that all religions contain the same basic universal truths, and that every human being on the planet is worthy of God's love just as they are, then you don't need to save them or hate them. You see them as the absolute equals that they are. Look, Shrdlu, you seem like a pleasant enough fellow. I feel like if I met you, and we talked about anything but religion, we'd get along just fine. The problem I have is that while you say you respect other's right to believe as they choose, you are also telling us that you are right and we are wrong. That's not respect. Respect would be to admit that you don't know the mind and intention of God for certain any more than I do. It's an unfathomable mystery. But at the same time, it's very simple: My friend, you are already enlightened. You already have absolute security. You already have peace of mind and all of the resources you need to fulfill your creative purpose. There is only one thing that you do not have. And that is the awareness that all this is true. This, to me, is essentially what Christ, Buddha, Lao Tse, and all the other high beings from every culture came to remind us of. Because either we all have the key, or none of us does. How can it be any other way? Peace" All sorts of things to reply to here, and I'm in a rush, so I'll be quick: I don't make the rules, I'm just telling you what God says in the Bible. It's not a matter of me saying that I am right. Forget me. I'm telling you what God says, and we can know "the mind and intention of God" when it comes to salvation. In fact, there is a verse that says "We have the mind of Christ" (I Corinthians 2:16). Surely I am not the only one that you have encountered who publishes the gospel. Also, if I were to agree with you that all religions are good, then I would be no friend, but a liar. I want to help. God is not a "her", he's a "him". Everyone is responsible for accepting Jesus as Saviour, and God, who knows what each of us will do in the future, will get the gospel to us if we will trust Jesus, no matter where we are. It is most certainly true that followers of religions will go to hell when they die if they have not accepted Jesus as Saviour. I am not the one that said this: God did in many scriptures, such as John 14:6. Don't pin it on me, as if I were being spiteful or judgmental. I have nothing to do with it, other than the command that I publish it (Acts 1:8). People who are saved are NOT justified in trying to eradicate those who are not. All we must do is to tell others the gospel. Some nations have persecuted other nations, claiming to be working in the name of God, but they were NOT real saved people. That's why I do not use the word Christian to describe myself: it has been abused very badly, and it has no real meaning anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Shrdlu, you missed the point of my argument and skipped the most important points in Joe's. You would have us believe that you know what happens to people when they die, that you know whether God is male or female, and that you know what God knows about unforeseen events--all of which cannot be substantiated. My household is not religious. My parents don't bother with religion, and never have. My parents are as good as two people could ever be, and deserve to go to Heaven if there is one--regardless of not being members of this exclusive Jesus club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 I don't make the rules, I'm just telling you what God says in the Bible. It's not a matter of me saying that I am right. Forget me. I'm telling you what God says, and we can know "the mind and intention of God" when it comes to salvation. That may be your God, Shrdlu; it isn't mine. I am basically not interested in the contradictions of the Bible. I have read the Old Testament in its entirety (rough going for sure.) There are much better Elizabethan writings. Shakespeare and Milton are better. Sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Okay, time for me to back out of this thread...and time to never look at it again either. Discussions of religion have always made me angry. No, furious. I just have little patience for the brainswashed masses who have been exposed to Christian hatred, hypocrisy, racism & hate (yes, hate, I've known quite a few real violent Christian assholes in my day). Organized religion is BULLSHIT. Thinking that The Bible was written by otherworldy hands is BULLSHIT. Believing that you could commit multiple homicides and then ask Christ for forgiveness and be saved (the ultimate "get out of jail free card") is BULLSHIT. Let's face it, as far as I'M concerned....this whole wonderful experience of being a "God Fearing" individual is BULLSHIT. ...and what a sick fucking phrase that is...GOD FEARING...Oh yeah, where can I sign up for that? No Thanks. Sorry if I've pissed anyone off...if you don't like this post...then ignore it...or have someone delete. It doesn't matter because I'm sure I'll be struck by lightning any minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 What Shawn said, though I'd say it nicer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 What Shawn said, though I'd say it nicer... Ditto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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