Errors and Contradictions in the Bible

[brownie]

What Shawn said, though I'd say it nicer... 

Ditto

Amen B-)

[J.A.W.]

What Shawn said, though I'd say it nicer...  

Ditto

Amen B-)

[Edward]

My favorite contradiction involves the following:

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)

Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."

Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

There is just no way to logically reconcile these statements.

I can give an immediate explanation. No problem.

God distinguishes between nations and individuals when it comes to sin and the punishment thereof. There is also a distinction between the penalty after death administered to each individual, and a penalty on earth imposed on a person - which might be made to carry over to his descendants, for certain crimes/sins.

Each individual must bear the punishment, after his death, for his own sin, unless he got saved while still on earth by accepting Jesus as Saviour, of course. Thus (Ezekiel 18:20) the son does not bear the punishment for his Dad's sin: namely being judged as an individual after death and cast into the lake of fire, preceded by a spell in hell. No-one will ever be sent to hell and the lake of fire for another's sins. Then, the scripture in Deuteronomy 24:16 says that no-one is given the earthly death penalty by the country's authorities for a crime committed by another. And we know that no-one ever is (at least, not in a just society).

When it comes to nations, God says, in those Exodus verses, that his punishment of the nation in question will sometimes carry on for several generations. Thus, people born later will suffer because of what their ancestors have done. (It's a bit like the comment that rain falls on the just and the unjust.) This suffering is only on earth, not after death. So there is a big difference between the two types of punishment.

An example of the national judgment is the Jews in captivity in Babylon, living in a foreign land under the control of the Chaldeans. These Jews had children who were born in captivity, and these children suffered because of the earlier sins of the fathers, even though they were not personally to blame. Another, contemporary, example would be a child born in an impoverished country that is suffering from prolonged drought. God has brought on the drought as a judgment on that nation for its evil false religions (that's why it happens), but the new-born child is not individually to blame, at least, not at first.

Another point about this punshment for several generations is that God, being God, knows what each of us will do in the future. Thus, if an individual, or nation, is going to be only evil in the future, then God sometimes makes them suffer right from birth.

So, you see, there is a logical explanation of these apparently contradictory scriptures. If one approaches the Bible with a humble heart, not looking for errors, then an explanation will be found. Sometimes the answer is not easy to find, but one can ask God to reveal the answer.

When I first saw that king who was 22 and 42 at the same time (!!), I did not know the explanation. But I did not think there was an error. I just wanted to know how this could be explained. I asked my then pastor, who did not know the answer at first. But he did find me an answer, and I will post it "in a future broadcast", as Robert Stack used to say.

You provide a strong, yet ultimately unconvincing argument. The problem is that you somehow seem to overlook the fact that when your God metes out punishment to nations, he must, almost inevitably, cause the death of individuals. If your God visits something such as a flood, famine, or drought upon a nation, inevitably people will perish. Accordingly, in such instances people ARE put to death for the inequities of their ancestors. I offer also Isaiah 14:21, which reads:

Prepare slaughter for his children for the inequity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Your claim that God knows what people will do in the future and so sometimes makes evil people suffer right from birth seems to have much more in common with a philosophy based on predetermination/fatalism than Christianity. If God is omniscient and knows all that will transpire in the future, then what exactly is the point of it all? For indeed, it has already then been determined who will go to heaven and who will go to hell, etc., etc. and there is NOTHING that anyone can do to change matters.

Actually, I do believe in predetermination. I believe that based upon who an individual is and all of the stimuli that a person encounters, it is inevitable that he/she will act in a particular way at any given point in time. The only variable for which I might allow is chaos, but chaos theory is beyond the scope of this discussion (and something of which I am not sufficiently versed). Still, the bottom line is that depending upon who you are you either are going to believe and subscribe to Christianity or you are not. To think that a god would doom a person to some sort of hell for his/her religious convictions (insofar as those convictions respect the rights of others) is beyond me. There is much to be said for living a just and virtuous life - one does not need Christianity or any other religion to do so.

Tell me, Shrdlu, have you ever studied philosophy as an academic discipline? Now, when I refer to philosophy, I do not simply mean to the differences between Christianity and the world's other religions. I mean epistemology, logic, metaphysics, and ethics. If you had, I doubt that you would display so little compassion for those with different beliefs as well as so much arrogance in the primacy of your faith.

I really do not have anything against any religion (including Christianity) insofar as that religion preaches tolerance of those with different beliefs. That said, I am extremely wary of organized religion. As for contradictions in the Bible, as I stated before, I know plenty of Christians who accept that such errors exist with unshaken faith because they realize that the Bible can NOT be the literal word of God. Your suggestion that people approach the Bible with a humble heart not looking for errors is ridiculous. There are many Christian theologists who seek inconsistencies in the Bible with an open mind because they are interested in the TRUTH. As Jesus said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

You started this thread, Shrdlu, so if you are interested in its vitality why don't you being by explaining all of the contradictions presented in the two websites to which 7/4 and I provided links? I, though, have to agree with CS500 that there are far more interesting things to read.

Edited August 22, 2004 by Edward

[Joe G]

"Authority is the weakest source of proof." - Thomas Aquinas.

'Nuff said.

[Big Al]

no, what he and I have in common is more of a disdain for organized religion. I think.)

Take heart, my friend; there's a lot of people (Christians and non-Christians, believers of any faith) who agree with that sentiment. Myself included, and I am a confirmed Christian.

I've always despised the way that "organized religion" (a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one) divides people more than it unites. But I tend to lay that blame more at the feet of legalistic Bible-quoting Christians more than anything else.

shrdlu, at the risk of sending my soul into eternal torment, do you not see what you are doing? You are becoming the very Pharisee and religious scribe that Christ stared down on a daily basis! I don't doubt your knowledge of Scripture, but I DO question your use of it! This is the exact same tactic used by the religious scribes of Jesus' day! The very thing that kept seekers from finding God! Don't you remember what our Savior said in the 23rd chapter of Matthew:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

This is you, my brother! You alienate more than you attract! You are setting even firmer the hearts of those who seek the Lord (or at the very least could use an introduction different than the radical-right espouses), when all they really need is a little softening!!! Whatever happened to "Come to me, all you who are weary, and I will give you rest."

You said earlier that

"Children are not "innocent little darlings": they are baby sinners. As an extreme example, Hitler was once a little cutie, being bounced on Momma's knee."

That goes COMPLETELY against what Christ said: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." The point is notthat children, like us, are all sinners; far from it, even though we are. The point is, we are to embrace and be embraced, just as Jesus did, just as God does, unconditionally. Period.

I beg you, my brother in the faith, to remember the words of St. Paul: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

Peace.

[JSngry]

I'd just like to say that LTB made some incredible cheese enchiladas with tomatillo sauce this evening, everything made from scratch with all fresh ingredients (except the tortillas, but they were quality. And the cheese, of course - we don't own any cows). It made her happy to fix them, it made me happy to eat them, and it made us happy that the other was happy because of what we were doing.

I felt the love, she felt that I felt it, and vicey-versy. That's a good thing.

Just had to say that.

[Big Al]

I'd just like to say that LTB made some incredible cheese enchiladas with tomatillo sauce this evening, everything made from scratch with all fresh ingredients (except the tortillas, but they were quality. And the cheese, of course - we don't own any cows). It made her happy to fix them, it made me happy to eat them, and it made us happy that the other was happy because of what we were doing.

I felt the love, she felt that I felt it, and vicey-versy. That's a good thing.

Just had to say that.

That's silly!

And a bit suspect, I think. Time for a cartoon!

[Free For All]

Does this tie it all together? It's a Good Book.

Edited August 23, 2004 by Free For All

[Joe G]

I'd just like to say that LTB made some incredible cheese enchiladas with tomatillo sauce this evening, everything made from scratch with all fresh ingredients (except the tortillas, but they were quality. And the cheese, of course - we don't own any cows). It made her happy to fix them, it made me happy to eat them, and it made us happy that the other was happy because of what we were doing.

I felt the love, she felt that I felt it, and vicey-versy. That's a good thing.

Just had to say that.

What's love got to do with it?

[JSngry]

What's love got to do with it?

[Dan Gould]

I'd just like to say that LTB made some incredible cheese enchiladas with tomatillo sauce this evening, everything made from scratch with all fresh ingredients (except the tortillas, but they were quality. And the cheese, of course - we don't own any cows). It made her happy to fix them, it made me happy to eat them, and it made us happy that the other was happy because of what we were doing.

Let me guess:

And then you happily sat together on the couch, breaking wind together.

Edit for the winky, even though it was obviously implied.

Edited August 23, 2004 by Dan Gould

[7/4]

I'd just like to say that LTB made some incredible cheese enchiladas with tomatillo sauce this evening, everything made from scratch with all fresh ingredients (except the tortillas, but they were quality. And the cheese, of course - we don't own any cows). It made her happy to fix them, it made me happy to eat them, and it made us happy that the other was happy because of what we were doing.

Let me guess:

And then you happily sat together on the couch, breaking wind together.

You're such a classy guy Dan.

[J.A.W.]

I'd just like to say that LTB made some incredible cheese enchiladas with tomatillo sauce this evening, everything made from scratch with all fresh ingredients (except the tortillas, but they were quality. And the cheese, of course - we don't own any cows). It made her happy to fix them, it made me happy to eat them, and it made us happy that the other was happy because of what we were doing.

Let me guess:

And then you happily sat together on the couch, breaking wind together.

You're such a classy guy Dan.

No problem, it was quite smelly in here already...

[JSngry]

Do cheese enchiladas make you fart?

[Big Al]

Didja see that little horse that went under JSngry’s chair? Hoof Arted!

[Shawn]

Abcess makes the fart go honda

[Jazzmoose]

I dunno...a cook too lazy to make their own cheese...what would Martha say?

[ajf67]

I dunno...a cook too lazy to make their own cheese...what would Martha say?

Martha's too busy trying to stay out of jail. Maybe if she prays real hard...

[Shrdlu]

no, what he and I have in common is more of a disdain for organized religion.  I think.)

Take heart, my friend; there's a lot of people (Christians and non-Christians, believers of any faith) who agree with that sentiment. Myself included, and I am a confirmed Christian.

I've always despised the way that "organized religion" (a contradiction in terms if I ever saw one) divides people more than it unites. But I tend to lay that blame more at the feet of legalistic Bible-quoting Christians more than anything else.

shrdlu, at the risk of sending my soul into eternal torment, do you not see what you are doing? You are becoming the very Pharisee and religious scribe that Christ stared down on a daily basis! I don't doubt your knowledge of Scripture, but I DO question your use of it! This is the exact same tactic used by the religious scribes of Jesus' day! The very thing that kept seekers from finding God! Don't you remember what our Savior said in the 23rd chapter of Matthew:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

This is you, my brother! You alienate more than you attract! You are setting even firmer the hearts of those who seek the Lord (or at the very least could use an introduction different than the radical-right espouses), when all they really need is a little softening!!! Whatever happened to "Come to me, all you who are weary, and I will give you rest."

You said earlier that

"Children are not "innocent little darlings": they are baby sinners. As an extreme example, Hitler was once a little cutie, being bounced on Momma's knee."

That goes COMPLETELY against what Christ said: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." The point is notthat children, like us, are all sinners; far from it, even though we are. The point is, we are to embrace and be embraced, just as Jesus did, just as God does, unconditionally. Period.

I beg you, my brother in the faith, to remember the words of St. Paul: "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

Peace.

A reply to this and other posts from those who seem to think that I hate people, or am a Pharisee.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't hate anyone. The gospel and the scriptures in the Bible are what do not admit any other way to heaven, not me. I am a preacher of the Bible, so I would be wrong to say anything else.

I am an independent Baptist, and not part of any "organized religion", whatever that might be.

There is no parallel between the Pharisees and a Bible-believing preacher like me. This accusation is often wrongfully leveled at preachers. The quotes by Jesus were aimed at proud, religious leaders who were not saved and were very self-righteous, thinking themselves to be superior to others.

I am not proud and I have no righteousness of my own to boast of. I am a filthy sinner, and God has saved me in spite of that, even though I don't deserve it. I am not counting on any supposed good works to earn me a place in heaven.

I hate legalism, and our Church strives to avoid this. As a missionary, I have been in over 350 Churches (mainly in the U.S.) and some are kinda legalistic, and I don't like those. God frees the believer from the law, in any case - not to disobey it, but from the penalty for breaking it.

As a preacher, I must quote the word of God, for that's where the power lies. Jesus said it was wrong to be "teaching for doctrine the commandments of men". As "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10), how can you say that I am trying to shut people out of heaven? Rather, I am showing people how they CAN get to heaven. I teach faith, not works. The Pharisees were teaching obedience to a stack of man-made laws, which no-one could keep, and that's why Jesus accused them of trying to shut men out of heaven. But God says salvation comes by grace as a free gift without works. Also, unlike the Pharisees, who were unsaved, I HAVE entered the Kingdom of God.

I totally agree with your use of Matthew 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." A big Amen!

Turning to the children, they ARE baby sinners ("In sin did my mother conceive me", Psalm 51:5) but I don't hate them. I love the little ones and have had three of my own - who are now all saved, by the way. The words that Jesus spoke about children have to do with the fact that we must all come to God as humbly as a child, seeking forgiveness, if we are to get saved. (I also like cute puppies and baby deers, by the way.)

The scripture from I Corinthians 13 (about sounding brass and tinkling cymbals) is often trotted out when the gospel or other Bible doctrines are being presented. This use of I Corinthians 13 is entirely a misuse of scripture. If it were always apllied in that way, very little preaching or witnessing could ever be done. You can't use it to negate the gospel. But it is still scripture, and we, in our Church, do exhibit faith, hope and charity. We LOVE to help people in need, and do so whenever we are able to do so, with no requirement that anything be given in return.

So, you see, there is no reason to be angry with me. It is just a misunderstanding. If we were able to meet face-to-face, and have a nice meal together, I'm sure we would get on fine. A bulletin board is kinda impersonal.

With best wishes,

Shrdlu

[Big Al]

Well, as I said before, I don't doubt or question your intent; only your methodology. I hold no anger towards you, and hope that we actually will meet face-to-face, if not here then in Heaven.

Peace.

[take5]

I am a filthy sinner, and God has saved me in spite of that, even though I don't deserve it.

And here it is folks: the underlying horror of Christianity- the philosophical basis of why this digusting religion is the 2nd biggest stumbling block of human progress of our time (the first being mass starvation).

You want to think of yourself as some innately horrible creature? That's your problem. Any person of reason takes each individual at his own merits. We understand that people are what they are due to a their genetic makeup, how they were raised, what they think, what they do, and the choices they make.

I am not a horrible sinner. I'm a guy doing my best to make it in this world and do the right thing. That includes not running around as a "missionary" and telling people they're evil in order to get them to join my cult. By the way, are you one of those scumbags that dangles some rice in the face of some starving African while preaching your lies? I'm going to assume not for the sake of my sanity.

By the way, don't get into a battle of semantics, it's pointless and makes you look foolish. You believe in a God, yes? You have a holy book, yes? You have rituals? You're in a religion, pal, deal with it. That fundy game of changing the meaning of words to lie their way into a point is old and tacky.

[jazzypaul]

Way to build bridges and form communities Take 5. Your argument is as tired as the song that your nickname honors.

Seriously...what's the point of your post? You're yet another guy taking an empty swipe at Christianity. Because you only look at the harm that has been done by legalistic chumps that do more to harm us than help us, you forget that there are Christians that follow The Bible that do much good, day in and day out. But what about the Christians that run food pantries, homeless shelters and drug treatment centers? Are they evil scumbags, too? How about all of the white churches that joined the fight for civil rights throughout the south in the late 50's and early 60's? I am assuming that they're evil too, right? And those missionaries that you so quickly take aim at ARE indeed helping people, giving them shelter, food and education. When was the last time that "Athiests International" got together and did such things?

For those of us who take the Word of God seriously, we bristle at the idea of the Falwells, Robertsons and Bushes of the world. They do God no favors, they do their religion no favors, and they do humanity at large no favors. And yet, you, in your blindness to the world around you, seem quite willing to lump anyone that respects Jesus Christ as their lord and savior together. I might be dumb for following, as you call it, a cult, but you're twice as dumb for not knowing the whole of that which you criticize. You would do well to read the book that you're so willing to slam. You would do well to seek out the Christians (few as they are, sadly) that shine with the light of Christ, as the quakers might put it. See if that doesn't at least run somewhat contrary to what you're so quick to think about us.

And, this might be of help to you as well...liberal christians...yes, we exist...

If you're going to say you disagree with something, at least do it with some class. We should expect better of each other here, shouldn't we?

[Big Al]

Thank you, jazzypaul!

[Joe G]

I agree that hurling insults is unneccesary and unproductive. But I, too, take issue with the idea that we are born in sin. I believe - no I know - that the core of our being is untarnished, complete, pure innocence. It's in those moments when I am in touch with that part of me that I am liable to realize, "This is who I am!" I never think that when I'm acting rudely or thoughtlessly. So forget the guilt trips and let's get on with it, man!

[Chrome]

there are Christians that follow The Bible that do much good, day in and day out. But what about the Christians that run food pantries, homeless shelters and drug treatment centers? Are they evil scumbags, too? How about all of the white churches that joined the fight for civil rights throughout the south in the late 50's and early 60's?

When was the last time that "Athiests International" got together and did such things?

There are plenty of people of all religions AND no religion who do good in this world ... no one group should get any special billing.

Why do you feel the need to take a swipe at people who have different beliefs than you (atheists)? Aren't you doing just what you're castigating Take 5 for?