Free For All Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Looks like the best they can do now is a bronze after losing to Argentina 89-81. We may have to stop calling the NBA finals the "world championship". Updated: 04:41 PM EDT No Gold for Dream Team as Argentina Wins in Semis Bronze Medal Becomes the Goal After America's Third Loss in Athens By CHUCK SCHOFFNER, AP SPORTS ATHENS, Greece (Aug. 27) -- Bronze is the best the American men's basketball team can do, and the reason is simple: They were beaten by a better team, Argentina. Manu Ginobili scored 29 points to lead his nation to another victory over the country that used to dominate the sport, an 89-81 win in the Olympic semifinals Friday night. For the first time since 1988, the gold medal will not go to the Americans. And for the first time since pro players were added for the original Dream Team in 1992, the United States will not be the Olympic champion. Argentina, with almost the same roster that made history in 2002 by becoming the first team to defeat a U.S. squad of NBA players, will compete for the gold medal against the winner of Friday's late game between Lithuania and Italy. The Argentines were the better passers, shooters and defenders. They confronted the Americans with a mixture of man-to-man and zone defenses, and confounded them with an assortment of back picks that turned the start of the second half into a layup drill. Argentina's players celebrated wildly when the game ended, and the crowd yelled ''Ole!'' U.S. coach Larry Brown walked over and gave a handshake and hug to his Argentine counterpart, Ruben Magnano, who played for Argentina against the first Dream Team in Barcelona. A dozen years later, Magnano's team became the first to knock America out of gold medal contention since the Soviet Union did it in Seoul in 1988. NBA commissioner David Stern attended the third loss of the Athens Games for the Americans, who entered the tournament with a 109-2 record in prior Olympics. Their first loss to Puerto Rico was shocking for its decisiveness, and their second to Lithuania finally got the message across to the players on the young U.S. roster that the level of the competition was a whole lot better than they had imagined. The U.S. team had been playing better since, and its best effort came Thursday in a victory over previously undefeated Spain. But just a day later, they went back to missing 3-point shots, didn't get a breakout performance from any of their NBA stars and couldn't make a sustained comeback after they fell behind by a double-digit margin. The first half ended with Argentina ahead 43-38 after its big men outplayed the Americans and showed themselves capable of playing with as much flair as anyone. The half's prettiest play came on the 3-on-1 break when Hugo Sconochini, one of the team's elder statesmen, tossed a nifty behind-the-back pass to Alejandro Montecchia for a high-arching layup over Richard Jefferson that gave Argentina a 42-33 lead. The Americans shot just 36 percent in the first half and didn't hit their first 3-pointer - missing their first five - until LeBron James made one 30 seconds before halftime. Argentina shot 54 percent overall and 11-for-22 from 3-point range, while the Americans finished just 32-for-77 (42 percent) and 3-for-11 on 3s. Stephon Marbury led the U.S. team with 18 points, and Tim Duncan had just 10 while being limited to 19 1/2 minutes because of foul trouble. The third quarter began with Ginobili hitting a wide-open 3-pointer, Duncan picking up his third foul, Luis Scola, Ginobili and Fabricio Oberto getting inside for layups, and Marbury clanging a driving shot off the side of the backboard. Suddenly, the Americans were down 53-40 and on the verge of having the game get away from them. It soon did. Duncan was whistled for his fourth foul with 7:41 left in the third quarter, causing Brown to jump out of his chair and scream ''NO!'' Next came a wide-open 3 from the right corner by Ginobili, and the lead was up to 16 - 56-40. The Americans quickly got their deficit down to six, but Montecchia and Ruben Wolkowyski knocked down 3s, and Ginobili added a rare four-point play - just like the one from Lithuania's Sarunas Jasikevicius that doomed the Americans in their opening-round loss - to make it 70-57 entering the fourth quarter. The Americans trailed 76-65 when Duncan fouled out with five minutes left for hitting Ginobili with a hip check. The U.S. team eventually went to a trap and a full-court press in an effort to climb back, but Argentina handled it with aplomb and didn't let the Americans get closer than eight. 08-27-04 15:33EDT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Not enough of a fan these days to say for sure, but is this a combination of: (a) American players' drift from fundamentals catching up with them (b) the fact that our all-star teams play together only briefly, while the teams they're competing against often play together year round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I think both points are accurate. I've been waiting for an Olympic basketball thread to post this comment, however: I have no sympathy for these spoiled brats who can't even be bothered to stay in the Olympic village with the other athletes. If they aren't interested in the Olympic experience, they should just stay home. Nice to see them get their comeuppance, as far as I'm concerned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 America's best players chose not to go. True story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 America's best players chose not to go. True story. Yep. Afraid of terrorism. Of course, the 5 best female soccer players made it. I don't believe any of the female basketball all-stars chickened out either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 All of the above. The level of international play has increased dramatically over the last decade or so, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maren Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 We may have to stop calling the NBA finals the "world championship". Or stop thinking that "NBA = USA" ??? 2004 non-USA NBA Olympians: ARGENTINA: Carlos Delfino, Detroit Pistons Emanuel Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs Andres Nocioni, Chicago Bulls CHINA: Yao Ming, Houston Rockets LITHUANIA: Darius Songaila, Sacramento Kings NEW ZEALAND: Sean Marks, San Antonio Spurs PUERTO RICO: Carlos Arroyo, Utah Jazz Peter John Ramos, Washington Wizards Daniel Santiago, Milwaukee Bucks SERBIA-MONTENEGRO: Peja Drobnjak, Charlotte Bobcats Nenad Krstic, New Jersey Nets Aleksandar Pavlovic, Cleveland Cavaliers Vladimir Radmanovic, Seattle Sonics SPAIN: Pau Gasol, Memphis Grizzlies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) We may have to stop calling the NBA finals the "world championship". Or stop thinking that "NBA = USA" ??? 2004 non-USA NBA Olympians: ARGENTINA: Carlos Delfino, Detroit Pistons Emanuel Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs Andres Nocioni, Chicago Bulls CHINA: Yao Ming, Houston Rockets LITHUANIA: Darius Songaila, Sacramento Kings NEW ZEALAND: Sean Marks, San Antonio Spurs PUERTO RICO: Carlos Arroyo, Utah Jazz Peter John Ramos, Washington Wizards Daniel Santiago, Milwaukee Bucks SERBIA-MONTENEGRO: Peja Drobnjak, Charlotte Bobcats Nenad Krstic, New Jersey Nets Aleksandar Pavlovic, Cleveland Cavaliers Vladimir Radmanovic, Seattle Sonics SPAIN: Pau Gasol, Memphis Grizzlies Yes, but we have the other ~ 500 players to fill out our team plus cream of the crop collegians if we choose. Face it folks, no matter how you slice it, this was an all-around disaster. Edited August 27, 2004 by Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 A hurricane in Florida is a disaster. This was a basketball tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) This starting 5 would be the best basketball team in the world: Shaq Kobe Garnett Duncan Kidd An established team like the Detroit Pistons would dismantle any one of those international teams. The best basketball players in the world are still American. The rest of the world has caught up considerably and some of the best players are foreign, but let's not start getting silly. Edited August 27, 2004 by Noj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I don't know why they didn't send the entire Detroit Pistons roster over there. Afterall, they call the NBA Championship and world championship. Prove it. I bet you my boyz would've made us proud. But they chickened out, too. No B. Wallace, no Rip, no Chauncey. They should've been there. The USA team got what it deserves. I hope they don't even win the bronze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 No B. Wallace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 (edited) A hurricane in Florida is a disaster. This was a basketball tournament. OK dude ... it was a major sporting disappointment. Edited August 27, 2004 by Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 I bet you my boyz would've made us proud. But they chickened out, too. No B. Wallace, no Rip, no Chauncey. They should've been there. It's a good thing Ben decided not to go though, as he had an emergency appendectomy the other day. Maybe he's psychic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 A hurricane in Florida is a disaster. This was a basketball tournament. OK dude ... it was a major sporting disappointment. Sorry; I didn't mean it as the "I'm more worldly than you" snide type comment it came across as, I just mean I wasn't that disappointed. I haven't had any emotion vested in Olympic basketball since we pulled a hissy fit and demanded that pros be allowed to compete. Well, so much for that excuse; our pros can't win either... By the way, guys, I don't think it should be discounted that the international game is not the "natural" game for NBA players; I mean it must take something away from you to have to play by rules that you otherwise don't see. It seems to me that we'd be better off with college players in the Olympics anyway, just to deal with the zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 A hurricane in Florida is a disaster. This was a basketball tournament. OK dude ... it was a major sporting disappointment. Sorry; I didn't mean it as the "I'm more worldly than you" snide type comment it came across as, I just mean I wasn't that disappointed. I haven't had any emotion vested in Olympic basketball since we pulled a hissy fit and demanded that pros be allowed to compete. Well, so much for that excuse; our pros can't win either... By the way, guys, I don't think it should be discounted that the international game is not the "natural" game for NBA players; I mean it must take something away from you to have to play by rules that you otherwise don't see. It seems to me that we'd be better off with college players in the Olympics anyway, just to deal with the zone. Sorry, didn't mean to not give you the benefit of the doubt ... feeling quite surly at the time. Yeah, I tend to agree with you ... I could really have cared less ... it seems that some of the "mitigating factors" - while valid individually, still added up to a US team that did not play up to their potential. College hoop rules though ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Not enough of a fan these days to say for sure, but is this a combination of: (a) American players' drift from fundamentals catching up with them (b) the fact that our all-star teams play together only briefly, while the teams they're competing against often play together year round? There are a number of factors, as has been mentioned, but I think "(a)" is perhaps the biggest. I prefer to watch NCAA basketball, and I tend to agree with Oscar Robertson (couldn't access the NY Times to get at the actual article, but FWIW, I found the following): THE REVENGE OF OSCAR ROBERTSON: Television ratings for the NBA are falling as fast as Global Crossing stock--last year's finals drew the worst ratings in more than two decades. So what does the league do? Start the All-Star game at 8:55 p.m. EST, thus ensuring the entire East Coast will turn off the second half of a contest that did not end until nearly midnight EST. Can't anybody in the NBA front office read a clock? If you wanted to guarantee a lost audience, you couldn't have done better. But then, making the NBA as bad as possible seems to be the goal of league management, and retired all-time basketball great Oscar Robertson has the league dead to rights in this (a link is provided here to the NY Times page) fantastic put-down piece from Sunday's New York Times. Games have become excruciatingly bad because: "One guy freelances while the other four stand and watch," Robertson says, putting his finger on the core problem of the current NBA. "Most of today's so-called star N.B.A. players have fairly one-dimensional games," Robertson continues. "They reach the N.B.A., often after only a year or two of college if at all, without more than a minimal concept of the overall game of basketball." Most modern players have contempt for fundamentals, Robertson says; all they want to do is dunk and hoist three-pointers. Traditionalist players like Robertson were taught to master three or four shots from specific places on the floor; offensive tactics were then drawn to get players to the spots from which they could make the shots they had mastered. Now there's almost no strategy on offense. Players take turns watching each other freelance, and the result is usually a loud "clang" as a ridiculous off-balance shot misses badly. Quality of play keeps declining in part because nothing can be done to discipline 19-year-olds with multi-year guaranteed contracts who refuse to listen to coaches. The league thinks it can compensate with flashy marketing, Robertson says, but declining attendance and free-falling ratings show that fans are all too aware how awful the NBA is becoming. Do you know anybody who would rather watch an NBA game than the NCAA men's college tournament--which pits players who listen to their coaches and are using the fundamentals? Today the quality of play in the NCAA women's college tournament exceeds that of the NBA. Robertson has a fabulous zinger, about the Eastern Europeans wearing NBA jerseys in rising numbers: "Just as America imports cheap labor from other countries to do the jobs Americans don't want to do, the NBA turns increasingly to foreign players who do have fundamental skills and an all-around approach to the game that fewer and fewer American players--even though they may be superior athletes--can be troubled to learn." The essence of the decline of the NBA is not that pro basketball players don't play defense; it's offense they don't play. In recent years, NBA defense has been pretty good. Thirty years ago, NBA teams averaged 106 points per game; today they average 93 points, with just two current teams, Sacramento and Dallas, averaging more than 100 points a contest. Shooting percentages are way down as well; a mere 44 percent of shots are falling this season. As Sports Illustrated pointed out last week, some of the problem is that the typical NBA player is today 3 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier than 30 years ago, while the court remains the same size, meaning there is ever-less-room to get open on offense. But mainly what's going on is that current NBA defense is much better than offense. Defense is ascendant because, unlike offense, it requires little cooperation. In the man-to-man defense that NBA teams play most of the time, success is measured by exertion, and there's no problem with NBA players giving effort; they're all dripping with sweat and gasping for breath. Five guys guarding their men like crazy makes for good defense, but the five guys can be in their own little worlds; they're not running plays and rarely cooperating with each other, except on the occasional switch or "rotation." Offense, on the other hand, can't be good unless there are coordinated plays run with constant practice. On offense, good basketball requires people to subordinate their egos: moving without the ball, setting screens and back-picks for each other and, most important, constantly giving up the ball. The majority of current NBA players simply refuse to do these things. Whatever the coaches may tell them, once the game starts, whoever gets the ball on offense goes one-on-one while his teammates stand around watching. Today's 19-year-old guaranteed-contract players seem to view hard work on defense as the price they pay to do whatever they damn please on offense. Offense, in turn, is not a coordinated effort to score points for the team, but a moment of individual self-promotion during which players take turns attempting to do something flashy to draw attention to themselves. Most of these attempts fail, as evidenced by 56 percent missed shots. But why should the players care? Their paychecks are guaranteed even if they are waived. The modern NBA player cannot lose income no matter how poorly he performs, but can increase income by drawing attention to himself in order to win shoe contracts or other endorsement deals. Note what the Nike and other NBA-themed commercials always depict: one-on-one duels and slam dunks, not coordinated team play. One-on-one duels are perhaps the least exciting thing about basketball. The lay-up is often the most exciting play, because a lay-up can't happen without coordinated movement among at least two players. Next time you watch an NBA game, make a mental count of how many lay-ups there are, versus how many wild off-balance everybody-look-at-me shot attempts. Not every team has given up on offense. The Lakers and Spurs have dominated the NBA recently in part because they have the league's two best players (Tim Duncan and Shaq) but in part because they are among the few NBA clubs that still run a coordinated, disciplined offense. Other teams may have noticed that the clubs with the disciplined offenses are winning the championships. But coaches have little ability to alter this; the 19-year-olds can refuse to do anything on offense except go one-on-one, knowing they can't be penalized financially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgraham333 Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 I think both points are accurate. I've been waiting for an Olympic basketball thread to post this comment, however: I have no sympathy for these spoiled brats who can't even be bothered to stay in the Olympic village with the other athletes. If they aren't interested in the Olympic experience, they should just stay home. Nice to see them get their comeuppance, as far as I'm concerned... Thanks for saving me the trouble of posting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Another reason is that the international rules are different, and the NBA players don't get/take enough time to adjust their games, especially with the different size court and the zone defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 ENHORABUENA, ARGENTINA!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gold medal for an unbelievable generation of basketball (basquebol as they call it) players! I always keep a place in my heart for Argentina! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted August 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Congratulations to Argentina. They came to play and deserved to win the gold. Looks like the US team needs to do a little soul searchin'........................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEK Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 The best team won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Great pics, EKE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajf67 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I think both points are accurate. I've been waiting for an Olympic basketball thread to post this comment, however: I have no sympathy for these spoiled brats who can't even be bothered to stay in the Olympic village with the other athletes. If they aren't interested in the Olympic experience, they should just stay home. Nice to see them get their comeuppance, as far as I'm concerned... Thanks for saving me the trouble of posting this. Just read this thread, and I second the seconding of Jazzmoose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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