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Soulstation1

Serena Williams vs The World

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Well if Blake says he's done it and not been penalized, we have to scratch off racism and can only go with sexism as the reason that Serena got penalized.  Progress!

Or we can just read the applicable section of the rules and say that Blake is lucky he wasn't penalized for whatever he said that was "worse".  :

 

Under Article III, Section P, “verbal abuse” is defined as “a statement about an official, opponent, sponsor, spectator or other person that implies dishonesty or is derogatory, insulting or otherwise abusive.” The section says a player is subject to a fine up to $20,000 for each violation.

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I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with the prior video. I see a player over reacting. The other night Djokovich was called for taking too much time to serve. His reaction: he did it again on purpose.  No hysterics or histrionics. 

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The real professional sportswoman of the final. She won and got robbed at the same time.

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Ok, with some time to process this, let's stipulate to bad on-court behavior. A fine was levied, and surely will be paid. End of that story. Serena can afford it.

Now, what about this perceived double standards of allowable behavior between men players and women players? There seem to be some voices saying that it's a legit claim.

If it is a real issue, then this should easily turn into  case of somebody who can afford to make that noise making it in the most visible way. Not that that was her intent in the heat of the moment, but still, pay the fine, admit to on-court behavior unbecoming a true champion in defeat, and then keep calling out the sexism.

I remember when everybody loved to hate McEnroe. Now it seems that a lot of people hate to love Serena. I think she's an awesome athlete, period. Take away all the externals, you still have an extraordinary athlete, period.

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30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I remember when everybody loved to hate McEnroe. Now it seems that a lot of people hate to love Serena. I think she's an awesome athlete, period. Take away all the externals, you still have an extraordinary athlete, period.

She may be an extraordinary athlete, but the "extra" is missing on her behaviour ....

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I don't follow tennis like I did 20 years ago, but didn't she also once physically threaten a line judge? Imagine doing that in other sports. You would be immediately sent off and given a healthy well earned ban. The same for this weekend's outburst. Serena seems to have a character issues imo. An enormous sense of entitlement. Very narcissistic behaviour. And FUCK that crowd of lemmings.

All off this separate from the issues of sexism and racism which are real. If male athletes are not punished and/or fined for similar offences, that needs to be addressed. Is there a recent example of coaching of a male tennis player and the (same) umpire not punishing him?

I did not see the whole match, and intend to watch the whole thing given the chance, given how big this has become.

Edited by erwbol

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33 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Ok, with some time to process this, let's stipulate to bad on-court behavior. A fine was levied, and surely will be paid. End of that story. Serena can afford it.

Now, what about this perceived double standards of allowable behavior between men players and women players? There seem to be some voices saying that it's a legit claim.

 

Honestly this assumes facts not in evidence.  I hear James Blake says he did worse. OK. It takes a lot more than one person to make me believe there is any serious discrepancy in application of rules to male and female players.

More to the point this isn't about men and women. This is about one woman, who hates when the rules are applied to her. She's really close to having a lifetime lowlights reel to rival Mac's.  And she screams sexism because that's what it's always about as far as she is concerned.

bottom line for me: Whether anyone has gotten a "warning" rather than a penalty, the rules are the rules. Umpires have leeway to call it down the middle and enforce it without hesitation or to give "warnings".  FWIW the Times describes the chair umpire as a well-known stickler for the rules.  

https://www.weeklystandard.com/jonathan-v-last/serena-williams-u-s-open-final-controversy-she-got-what-she-deserved

 

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She is a fantastic athlete, the best women tennis player ever, no doubt about it but her on court behavior, not so much. 

There may be a double standard but was that the right time to make the point? It is no coincidence that she escalated the tension when she was losing. Had she not smashed her racquet, I doubt things would have gotten out of control.  Let's look at why she smashed it; she had just broken Osaka to maybe get back in the match and Osaka broke her right back. She knew it might be a long afternoon so she tried to intimidate Osaka but it didn't work.  Moreover, this umpire has a reputation as a no nonsense guy. He's been tough on male players too but from what I've read and heard, after a little back and forth, the players went back to playing; she just kept it going, forcing his hand. 

There's another double standard working here, the "Serena can do no wrong" standard. I heard one commentator say today that a person of color was being mistreated, until someone said, well, Osaka is a person of color too. 

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Sure Serena can do wrong. She did wrong. But that's a separate point from is there really a double standard? That's a question that is bigger than Serena, and if not looked at and addressed if/as needed, will still be there after she's gone. And she will be gone at some point, she's an athlete.

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1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

Honestly this assumes facts not in evidence.  I hear James Blake says he did worse. OK. It takes a lot more than one person to make me believe there is any serious discrepancy in application of rules to male and female players.

 

how about WTA's CEO

DmsRmTNX4AILtNM.jpg:large

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, uli said:

how about WTA's CEO

DmsRmTNX4AILtNM.jpg:large

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh my god stop the presses! The WTA supports their superstar. And only asks "whether different standards are applied" to men and women.

This does nothing for your argument whatsoever.

And if they want what happened to never happen again, tell their superstar to stop acting like the world revolves around her.

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imho the statement supports my argument that the refereeing was bad,

Edited by uli

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It supports their superstar and her allegations.  They even come out and say coaching should be allowed, as in, if we had fixed this rule previously, Ms superstar wouldn't have been in this position.  It's an ex post facto excuse for the penalty that got it all started.

I'd love to see someone, anyone challenge Williams on her claim that she never cheats, never gets coaching during a match but her coach says he does it every single point. Who is lying? Who has motive to lie?

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Martina Navratilova, no friend of the patriarchy, has it right:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/10/opinion/martina-navratilova-serena-williams-us-open.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

If, in fact, the guys are treated with a different measuring stick for the same transgressions, this needs to be thoroughly examined and must be fixed. But we cannot measure ourselves by what we think we should also be able to get away with. In fact, this is the sort of behavior that no one should be engaging in on the court. There have been many times when I was playing that I wanted to break my racket into a thousand pieces. Then I thought about the kids watching. And I grudgingly held on to that racket.

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15 hours ago, uli said:

how about WTA's CEO

DmsRmTNX4AILtNM.jpg:large

In fairness to uli, the following does indeed support his argument:

”The WTA believes that there should be no difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men vs women and is committed to working with the sport to ensure that all players are treated the same. We do not believe that this was done last night.” 

Bad behavior is bad behavior, I think we all agree on that. But lack of fairness could push even the best of us past our breaking point. Especially when the stakes are as high as they were that night. 

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It supports her claims and excuses. And again, this is the Women's Tennis Association. It is dedicated to supporting players. Its entire purpose is to support players.  Did anyone expect it to tell Serena that she owes the world and especially her opponent an apology?

I saw something last night about Andy Roddick saying that he has said worse and never suffered a game penalty.  What is missing from that statement is, did he previously get dinged for coaching, then smash his racquet?  If not, then there could be no game penalty in the first place.

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Has the WTA offered similar statements after previous Serena Williams meltdowns? 

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23 minutes ago, Scott Dolan said:

Has the WTA offered similar statements after previous Serena Williams meltdowns? 

Previous Serena Williams meltdowns have not involved claims of sexism or denial of receiving coaching.

They've involved threats of physical harm to lines persons, and accusing chair umpires of being "haters" who are "ugly inside".

Even the WTA draws the line at that.

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Blogger Kevin Drum, obviously a tennis fan though he usually deals with politics, weighs in with some context and common sense IMO:

 

After Saturday’s great Serena Williams meltdown in the final of the US Open, I geared myself for what was inevitably to come: an endless parade of woke op-eds and online articles explaining that this was just another example of how hard women have it in tennis. Especially black women. Especially strong black women. Especially Serena Williams. There’s always the double standard. Always the demand for ladylike behavior. It’s scandalous and it needs to end. Now.

  • This came from all over, much of it from people who don’t play tennis and didn’t watch the match. They just knew that this was the appropriate response to anything bad that happens to Serena Williams. And so Twitter went nuts.

    But I’m happy to see that over the past couple of days, as tempers have cooled, a few people have had the fortitude to suggest that maybe, just maybe, it was Williams herself who acted badly. Maybe the umpire did OK after all. Maybe men are treated about the same.

    For those of you who didn’t watch the match (or did!) here’s a lengthy bullet list of what happened:

    • Williams’s coach, Patrick Mouratoglou, made a clear and repeated gesture suggesting that Williams should rush the net more often. This was not a subtle movement. It was very, very obvious, and he admitted to it afterward.
    • The umpire saw it and called a warning for coaching, which is illegal.
    • Note: although the penalty goes against the player, it’s actually called against the coach. It doesn’t matter if the player saw or responded to the coaching. All that matters is that the coach did it. That’s the rule.
    • Williams got upset and told the umpire in no uncertain terms that she hadn’t seen the gesture and would never cheat. “I’d rather lose than cheat,” she said. But she held her temper at this point.
    • The warning cost Williams nothing. It’s basically meant as caution to the coach to knock it off.
    • Later in the match, Williams lost a game while she was serving. This is like striking out with the bases loaded: it’s very bad. She got mad and smashed her racket on the court, breaking it.
    • That’s an automatic infraction. The umpire has no discretion here. He called a penalty, and since it was her second, Williams was docked a point. When Naomi Osaka began serving in the next game, she started 15-0 up.
    • Williams was pissed, obviously, but a lot of people have publicly wondered whether she even knew that the coaching warning was a first infraction and that she’d therefore lose a point for the next infraction. This is insulting. Williams has been playing professional tennis for two decades. Of course she knows the rules. To suggest otherwise is to paint her as a moron.
    • Osaka won the game. But she was playing very well and probably would have won the game anyway.
    • When the game was over and the players went to their seats, Williams exploded at the umpire. She had been seething ever since the original coaching violation was called, and now she couldn’t keep it in. She yelled, she demanded an apology, she called him a thief, she swore he would never again work one of her matches, and she ranted and raved.
    • At the next changeover, after she had lost yet another service game, the rant continued. The umpire now called a third infraction for verbal abuse. This meant Williams lost a game. Osaka held serve at her next opportunity and won the match.

    As many people have pointed out, Osaka was playing well and there’s a pretty good chance she would have won regardless. Osaka was up a break, 4-3, and had to hold her serve twice to win the match. After the penalty made it 5-3, it meant she only had to hold her serve once to win. We’ll never know for sure, but there’s no question she was in command of the match both before and after the penalty.

    So what’s the conclusion from all this? First, Williams was out of line about the coaching penalty. It’s true that “everyone coaches” and it’s also true that it doesn’t get called a lot. But it does get called, and Mouratoglou’s coaching was far from subtle. The umpire did nothing wrong here.

    Ditto for smashing the racket. That was an obvious code infraction.

    And that leaves only the third code infraction. This is a judgment call. There’s no question that Williams was ranting and screaming. In one sense, calling a verbal abuse penalty was a no-brainer. On the other hand, it’s the tail end of a grand slam, and some umpires would have just let Williams run out of steam and then allow the match to play out. You could justify either approach, I think.

    As for the charge of sexism, I don’t see it. I watch a fair amount of tennis, and I’ve seen men throw temper tantrums. I’ve also seen them get called for it. But with the caveat that I haven’t seen every temper tantrum in recent history,¹ Williams really did have a pretty epic meltdown. I haven’t seen anything like it that I can remember. The penalty may have been a judgment call, but it was a perfectly justifiable judgment call.

    If you want to take Serena’s side on this, that’s fine. But please don’t do it on a knee-jerk basis. Williams’s behavior was atrocious, and the umpire, at worst, made a barely incorrect judgment call toward the end of the match. That’s it.

    ¹Please, please don’t bring up Ilie Nastase or John McEnroe. That was nearly 40 years ago, before the current code infraction system was even in place, and in fact, both of them frequently received penalties during play.

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7 hours ago, Soulstation1 said:

This newspaper is from my town. The media today full of the usual apologists defending the cartoonist and the newspaper. 

Recently a champion sportsmen over here called out racist remarks directed at him from someone in the crowd. he was booed and jeered for the remainder of his career into retirement. Supposedly that wasn't racist either, just 'the crowd' reacting to him staging for free kicks. Yeah right. 

Edited by robertoart

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10 hours ago, Soulstation1 said:

Of course it is, but that doesn't mean (see Kevin Drum's blog post above) that the original Serena-U.S. Open incident had a racist basis or a sexist one either.

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