Sinatra Preference - Balladeer or Swinger

[JSngry]

This poll is prompted by the Sinatra Recommendations thread. It's interesting to me to see most people recommend Sinatra's "swing" material at the expense of his ballad work.

Myself, I like the swinging stuff ok, but I don't think that Sinatra himself really became totally or consistently at ease with the idiom until the 1960s, when, my hunch is, the gradual erosion of his more subtle vocal skills "forced" him to concentrate more on purely rhythmic phrasing and less on the whole lyric-melody art-song type of thing. The beauty of the Capitol "swing" albums for me is often as much (or more) in the arrangements, and how Sinatra sings within them. An art unto itself, to be sure, but there's a difference between that type of singing and "pure" jazz, or even "swing", singing. Not saying that to infer superiority of one style to the other, just noting the difference.

As a balladeer, though, I find his work consistently interesting, engaging, and quite often emotionally and technically profound, to say nothing of deeply moving. For me, ONLY THE LONELY is as deep a statement as has ever been made within the realm of "American Popular Song". There's a true gravitas to Sinatra's interpretations of these songs (to say nothing of Riddle's arrangements) that makes it (again, for me) a more deeply satisfying experience than the "swinging" material. Those things are marvelously entertaining, artfully wrought, and culturally iconic, but they don't get inside my head, heart, and soul like these ballads do.

And it's not just that one album either. NICE 'N" EASY is not as dark, but it's every bit as musical and soulful, if significantly more tender, and there's any other number of ballad performances over the years that I find to be of the highest possible order. The Capitol version of "I'm A Fool To Want You" would be a prime example.

In fact, I have more than a few musician friends who consider "Sinatra", as in the Rat Pack icon, a little corny (or worse). But they, almost unanimously, are laudatory for the man's work on the best ballad material. Some of them weren't really familiar with it, but were shocked when finally exposed to it. The phrasing, the shadings, the "operatic" elements of interpretation adapted to popular ballad singing in a totally organic fashion was what struck them, as was the depth of emotion. One guy even went so far as to say that he still hated Sinatra, but that he bought ONLY THE LONELY because, "Nobody has ever sung those songs any better."

I have to agree. Although a few singers have given us ballad interpretations that have been as "good", as "meaningful", as "heartfelt" as Sinatra's best work, I don't know that anybody has done any better. Different in terms of idiom and personal perspective, yes. (But, of course, different and better are two different things.) I'd not begin to say that about his swing work. Great as much of it is, I don't think that's where, overall, he made his truest/deepest statements.

So, that's my opinion. what's yours?

Edited September 10, 2004 by JSngry

[chris olivarez]

Ballads are what made his rep and the one's that I've heard are for the most part are beautifully done although some seem twice as long as they actually are. Nevertheless Frank has few rivals in singing a ballad but I do prefer Nat Cole when it comes to a ballad.

[JohnJ]

Jim, I basically agree with you. All his ballad work on Capitol is sublime, my personal favorite is probably 'In The Wee Small Hours'. For me, nobody did loss and heartache like Frank (apart from Billie) and even on Reprise I tend to prefer the more reflective material. By the late 60's his voice wasn't what it was, but I still find a lot of his later stuff very moving. As one example, listen to 'She Shot Me Down', a collection of saloon songs sang as only Frank could sing them.

I still get a kick out of 'Songs For Swinging Lovers' though. He, and Riddle, are magnificent there.

[Harold_Z]

Good question, Jim.

I don't really think there is an absolute answer, but the real WOWS seem to come about on the ballads when the delivery, chops, and soul come into play. You sit back and say YEAAHH....the cat had it all together!

.....and then you listen to "Come Fly With Me" (the album). It's swingin' like an MF for the most part and then he hits APRIL IN PARIS - starts it on the bridge- and it's WOWWW again. I think he was into the contrast - he KNEW the effect of the change up. (Apparently he knew a hell of a lot ! He knew who the best arrangers were. How to get the best contractors or musicians. State of the art recording at that time. The Capitol shit is CADILLAC all the way!! Too much so to be an accident.)

The corn factor seemed to creep in later -moreso on the Reprise material than the Capitol - but that's natural considering the passage of time, advancing age, etc - .

He was a giant, but he wasn't infallible.

Sinatra's a special case. He's a singer, an entertainer, an actor, an icon. He's larger than life in many ways - espescially to us North Jersey guys who grew up with him as a soundtrack to our lives. I mean he was THERE all the time. Radio, Jukebox, TV and family time on the Victrola (intentional use of an antiquated term). We were innundated with him - and for awhile I was sick of him - but not for long. I'd be working a gig and during the break "Skin" or "Time After Time" or some other great tune would come on the Jukebox and I'd be drawn in...and if the band happened to be the type of group where we would play that stuff, I realized that the tunes were great. The changes were great. It was GOOD MUSIC and I was playing and swinging and having a blast.

[Larry Kart]

Ballads (if I have to choose -- because some swingers are perfect ("Get Happy," for example), though a good many others are too ring-a-ding-dingy). I think the Capitol "Willow Weep For Me" from "Only the Lonely" is my Sinatra ballad favorite. What he does with vowel sounds there, leading one into the next, shading his timbre, and god know what all -- all in the service of a really DEEP reading of the lyric and its mood. I once tried to write something about that performance as part of larger piece about Sinatra, and the task pretty much defeated me, just too many subtle, subverbal things at work (or at least "sub" my verbals). Whatever I did come up with at least one one good point I think, about how literally "cinematic" Sinatra's concept could be at times. An excerpt:

"Listen, for example, to Sinatra’s 1958 performance of Willow Weep for Me, which appears on his famous album Only the Lonely --the more studied and solemn sequel to In the Wee Small Hours of the Morning (1955). Willow Weep for Me is an astonishing performance, both from the point of view of vocal control and poetic insight. Giving each syllable he emphasizes an appropriate tone color, Sinatra sweeps through the lyric with such eerie grace that by the end he has virtually recomposed Willow Weep for Me, even though he hasn’t altered the pitch of a single note or changed any of the original rhythms. Willow Weep for Me (Ann Ronnell wrote both words and music and dedicated the song to George Gershwin ) is a striking unity in itself, a kind of white blues number, if only in the way the chorus uses a call-and-reponse structure --"Willow weep for me (repeat)/ Bend your branches green/ along the stream that runs to sea" etc. Given this musical/verbal ode to self-pity, Sinatra deepens and transforms it. The words he choses to emphasize --"willow," "bend," "listen," "me," "gone," "sad," "none"--virtually become a poem within the lyric, one that is at once more abstract and more concrete than the original , depicting the song’s emotion even as it enacts it. And this sense that the singer stands just to one side of the feelings he’s singing about is nailed down by a final, very cinematic key change --like a dissolve or a dolly shot."

[Jim R]

Ballads. More consistently great in that realm, I think. I prefer Cole over Sinatra in general, but that preference is probably more heavily influenced by Cole's strengths as a swinger as opposed to a balladeer.

[Harold_Z]

....I did come up with at least one one good point I think, about how literally "cinematic" Sinatra's concept could be at times.

I agree. That's what I was attempting to convey in my post when I said "singer, entertainer, actor, etc., but cinematic conveys the concept in a much clearer concise way. I think that's a big part of Sinatra's oeuvre.

[catesta]

I don't really think there is an absolute answer, but the real WOWS seem to come about on the ballads when the delivery, chops, and soul come into play. You sit back and say YEAAHH....the cat had it all together!

It is indeed a tough choice.

Sinatra could swing his ass off, but damn he could make you feel those ballads.

When I listen to Frank doing tunes like, "I've Got You Under My Skin", I feel it next to impossible to sit still. On the other side I am completely taken in and feel the real deal when he's doing a song like "It Was a Very Good Year".

[jazzbo]

I just couldn't make up my mind. . . I didn't vote.

[JSngry]

The Cole v. Sinatra thing is also interesting, because I sometimes try to sing along with singers' records (just because I can't sing worth a damn, and also to get a better lock on true melodic phrasing).

Now I'm not talking about Nat's small group jazz singing here, I'm talking about his "pop" singing, the stuff w/Riddle, Billy May, etc. Different animal altogether.

But anyway, on ballads, I found that it was a LOT easier to sing along wht Nat than it was w/Sinatra. NAt's phrasing and inflections on this stuff are all pretty striaghtforward - it's the purity of voice, preciseness of phrasing and enunciation that give his readings their power in this context.

Sinatra, otoh, is just too complicated for a hack like me to sing along with. Larry noted this with some keen observations, but let me tell you anyway - the cat is doing so much shifting of phrasing, articulation, timbre, inflection, everything, that to effectively sing along with him, I'd have to do a whole "transcription" session, just like I would with a horn solo.

This really freaked me out at first, because I had been feeling the vocals mopre than listening to them. But when it came time to "get inside" them musically, I realized just how deep of a singer this guy was.

Tat's not to say that Nat's stuff doesn't get to me just as much. Not at all. His reading of "When I Fall In Love" is profound on many levels, and there's plenty more where that came from. Obviously.

But "conventional wisdom" would have Cole being the singer with the "looser", difficult to emulate accurately, pop style, what with his jazz background of unimpeachable greatness and all, with Sinatra being assumed to be the more formal, perhaps "rigid" style of interpretation. My experience, though, is that it's exactly the opposite.

Go figure that!

[Big Al]

Talk about a hard choice! I’m in total agreement with catesta on this one! I voted for swingers.

That said, however, Sinatra’s version of “What’s New” from OTL is THE definitive version. That song..... man, I can’t even put into words how blue that song makes me feel. (We need a "blue" frownie!)

[catesta]

I voted for swingers.

I ended up voting "swingers" as well. B-)

[Big Al]

Hey Jim, whattya think about Rosemary Clooney’s Love album, in the context of Only the Lonely? You used Rosie’s “How Will I Remember You” on your BFT, and I remember your discussion about that song, how she just got IN to that song. I’ve tried to get that CD, but just can’t bring myself to get it, cuz I’m afraid I’ll never listen to it; music THAT intense, that deeply felt, I’m almost frightened to listen to. It just feels like I’m intruding on a moment of genuine loneliness and despair. Same goes for Only the Lonely.

This is not to say I find these albums or this music inferior in any way. I’m just too chickenshit to confront it on its own terms!

Edited September 10, 2004 by Big Al

[Guest Chaney]

I at times believe that I'm hearing Sinatra the actor / performer on the swingin' tunes and Sinatra, the man, on the ballads. (Although, much to my disappointment, Frank frequently had the tendency to act the ass while doing the ballads in a live setting. Just as I'm getting into it, Frank'll let loose with one of his lame attempts at humor.)

Preference? None. Or do I mean both?

[Dr. Rat]

The Cole v. Sinatra thing is also interesting, because I sometimes try to sing along with singers' records (just because I can't sing worth a damn, and also to get a better lock on true melodic phrasing).

Now I'm not talking about Nat's small group jazz singing here, I'm talking about his "pop" singing, the stuff w/Riddle, Billy May, etc. Different animal altogether.

But anyway, on ballads, I found that it was a LOT easier to sing along wht Nat than it was w/Sinatra. NAt's phrasing and inflections on this stuff are all pretty striaghtforward - it's the purity of voice, preciseness of phrasing and enunciation that give his readings their power in this context.

Sinatra, otoh, is just too complicated for a hack like me to sing along with. Larry noted this with some keen observations, but let me tell you anyway - the cat is doing so much shifting of phrasing, articulation, timbre, inflection, everything, that to effectively sing along with him, I'd have to do a whole "transcription" session, just like I would with a horn solo.

This really freaked me out at first, because I had been feeling the vocals mopre than listening to them. But when it came time to "get inside" them musically, I realized just how deep of a singer this guy was.

Tat's not to say that Nat's stuff doesn't get to me just as much. Not at all. His reading of "When I Fall In Love" is profound on many levels, and there's plenty more where that came from. Obviously.

But "conventional wisdom" would have Cole being the singer with the "looser", difficult to emulate accurately, pop style, what with his jazz background of unimpeachable greatness and all, with Sinatra being assumed to be the more formal, perhaps "rigid" style of interpretation. My experience, though, is that it's exactly the opposite.

Go figure that!

I voted swingers, but am beginning to see the error of my ways--I think though the orchestrations, which often bother me, both me less when the song is moving.

But as to Cole/Sinatra, Cole sings melody, while Sinatra puts over style with to my ear far less concern for what works musically and far more concern for his self-potrayal.

I'm not talking dichotomies here, there a little of both on each side, of course. Like prose has rhythm, only poetry's got more.

--eric

[RDK]

Hmmm. I'm not sure if I can answer this one since much of the impact I get from Sinatra comes from him singing both ballads and up-tempo numbers. It's like asking which hand is more important - the right or the left - when it comes to clapping.

In the other thread you reference, Jim, I recall nominating a few "swinging" sessions as my favorite, but that has nothing to do with my preference of Sinatra as a balladeer or swinger. I just really dig those swingin' albums. But I think that Sinatra's most definitive performances ("One For My Baby..." etc.) are likely ballads.

[Joe M]

I like the swing sessions best, but the ballads may be better, regardless - how can you get better than Frank in the Capitol years?

[Brad]

I'm with Catesta. The guy could swing, really swing.

[ajf67]

It's like asking which hand is more important - the right or the left - when it comes to clapping.

I voted for The Swinging Frank, but geez what a tough choice. I really like the clapping analogy; I think it's right on the money.

[BruceH]

Hmmm. I'm not sure if I can answer this one since much of the impact I get from Sinatra comes from him singing both ballads and up-tempo numbers. It's like asking which hand is more important - the right or the left - when it comes to clapping.

Right on!

[Teasing the Korean]

Just found this thread and voted for the ballads.

Still, I like both.

One of the reasons I love the "Come Fly with Me" album is that it mixes ballads and swingers, a rarity in the Sinatra catalog in that regard.

Sinatra's version of "A Cottage for Sale" on "No One Cares" is absolutely stunning. That one easily goes in my top 10 Sinatra performances list.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

In the real early sixties, my best mate was heavily into Sinatra and I got to hear quite a lot. She reckoned "Only the lonely" was his best, with "No one cares" and the 10inch with him standing under a lamppost (can't remember if that was "In the wee small hours" or another) runners-up. I really preferred "Songs for swingin' lovers"; "Come dance with me"; "Come fly with me" and "A swingin' affair". She also had some Columbia material, which I didn't like at all. But later on, in his Reprise years, "The September of my years" grabbed me, particularly "It was a very good year". But also a 45 - "That's life" - with a kind of James Brown ballad type arrangement, which was curious, but I thought he brought it off.

So, I think I'm ambivalent. Can I vote for both?

MG

[Dave James]

Can you vote for both? I'm really not sure I have a preference. I love the slow stuff, but when he really gets into a swinger, it absolutely pops. Dig out your copy of Sinatra At The Sands with the Count Basie Orchestra from 1966 and listen to I've Got You Under My Skin. He's working with a great Quincy Jones arrangement for sure, but, man, he just nails the vocal.

[JSngry]

Dig out your copy of Sinatra At The Sands with the Count Basie Orchestra from 1966 and listen to I've Got You Under My Skin. He's working with a great Quincy Jones arrangement for sure, but, man, he just nails the vocal.

Not to quibble, but that arrangement is really just an adaptation of Nelson Riddle's original chart, to accommodate a traditional big-band instrumentation. And...I think the Capitol version of Skin (as I'm told the certain of the "Mr. Sinatra" types like to refer to it) is really one of the high points of 20th Century Popular Music, especially Sinatra's vocal.

But yeah, 60s Sinatra really found that swing pocket a lot more firmly than the earlier work, imo. Most of that Strangers In The Night album just grooves in a way that vocalists of Sinatra's era & background could muster. The giuy knew where it needed to go.

[Mark Stryker]

Big topic here, and I agree with much of Jim's earlier analysis, so I'll try and keep it brief. I love the swingers, but put a gun to my head and I'd choose the ballads. And while I prefer the melancholy mood of "Wee Small Hours" to "Only the Lonely" (both are masterpieces, of course) I've decided after many years that "Close to You" is my absolute favorite for the conversational intimacy of the setting with the Hollywood String Quartet, the incredible liquid, viola quality of Sinatra's voice at its absolute peak of control and expression, and the fresh, beautifully constructed songs like "Couldn't Sleep a Wink," "Blame It On My Youth," "P.S. I Love You," "With Every Breath I Take," etc. Anybody that doesn't know this album needs to find a copy as soon as possible. Really.

As far as the swingers go, I think Jim is right that Sinatra becomes most comfortable with jazz in the '60s. Having said that, however, for me, Sinatra sounds best when he is slightly hipper than his accompaniment rather than the other way around. That's why when it comes to "rhythm" numbers, I have long preferred "Songs for Swinging Lovers," "Swinging Affair," "Ring-a-Ding-Ding," etc. to the LPs with Basie. Plus, I always thought he wasn't in the greatest vocal shape on the Sands recordings. (One digression: Bill Kirchner wrote in a discussion over at Doug Ramsey's blog a while back that he always considered "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" (late 1960) to be Sinatra's bebop album because Johnny Mandel's charts incorporated certain modern ideas that Riddle-May, who were from a slightly older generation, did not, and because the band on the album included a bunch of West Coast jazzers, among them Joe Maini, Bud Shank, Frank Rosolino, etc. In any case, that's a tremendous album. Very underrated, as is "Sinatra and Swingin' Brass" from 1962 with Neal Hefti charts.)

Here are some interesting clips. Sinatra appeared with Basie at the Hollywood Palace for a TV show in '65 and he and the band are incredible here -- far stronger than the Sands, the earlier LPs with Basie or the '65 concert in St. Louis. More of this used to be on Youtube but lots of it appears to have been removed. There was an especially interesting take on "Too Marvelous for Words" which seems to have been an unrecorded Quincy Jones chart. (He's conducting.) This clip has a Basie instrumental and then "Fly Me To the Moon." Wish the rest was available somewhere.

Two early jazz tunes: 1946 with the Metronome All-Stars (Cole, Hawkins, Carney, Hodges, Shavers and more) with one of two takes of "Sweet Loraine."

1951 or so on TV -- "I've Got My Love To Keep Me Warm." This is really intriguing to me, because it seems to capture the nascent beginnings of the grown-up tom cat approach to swinging standards that defined the upcoming Capitol era. It's almost like he's inventing it on the spot. Lots of signature moments -- in the third A section of the first chorus he connects the line "So I will weather the storm/what do I care" without a breath to create one ridiculously long phrase. He really lays back the first time he does it, and the time almost gets away from him. He does the same trick on the final A of the tune (with more secure time), and then uses the "lookey-here now" interjection as a kind of climatic tag. Nice arrangement, too, and the pianist plays some hip shit starting in the second bridge. Another interesting detail is that in that final A, Sinatra unbottons his jacket and flips open his collar as he sings, "My hearts on fire/with one desire." That's obviously a deliberate gesture; a tiny but effective piece of theater.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Mark Stryker