The joy of knowing the Chords

[Free For All]

Another argument in favor of either the straight-up maj7 dogma OR the "leave the sevenths up to the performers" attitude which I tried to make is that the D-minor substitution, in, say, the third bar, doesn't really work as a substitution if the home chord is a Bb7. 

D half-diminished would work, though. That would "validate" the Ab. Also, there's no reason one has to "commit" to one or the other- it all depends on the context of the melodic line.

Yes, if one "parks" on a chord tone like a maj. 7 while the rhythm sections "parks" on a dom. 7, it won't sound particularly good. If a soloist uses a LOT of the maj. 7 in his content, I would expect the rhythm section to comp accordingly. Same with the dom. 7th. Otherwise, the "fleeting" dissonances are to me a huge part of the attraction of jazz harmony.

The dissonance implied by using the #9/3rd is derived from the blues scale. Regarding the maj.7 vs. dom.7th, I've heard players like Woody Shaw play a major 7 on a dominant chord, but he tends to use it as a passing tone, and often resolves it to the dom. 7. IMHO, there's a fine line between a tasteful dissonance and a out-and-out CLAM, and the distinction lies mostly in the ear of the listener.

You know, John, even though you don't give your location, between using the term "interlocutor" and signing off with "cheers" I'm sensing a UK connection!

Edited September 25, 2004 by Free For All

[j lee]

Absolutely, Free for All -- I can see completely how the #9 vs. maj/min 7th thing differs in quality, when you put it like that. I also agree with your other point about the difference between really laying these two tonalities against each other versus for example, playing like Miles does sometimes, a maj 7th on top of a blues dom7th chord. Playing something for effect, a note that "needs" to be resolved a certain way, versus just pitting two competing tonalities against one another.

I think about all of my original arguments posted on organ-ized have been summed up -- by me and by you and others -- and yet I'm still somewhat convinced by the idea I originally rallied against that *really* when one plays "Oleo", one plays Bb7...even given the fact that a soloist is *free* to do whatever makes the best melodic sense, and that whoever's comping is (arguably) obliged to make the best environment for the soloist...I guess I can't really make up the argument from the other side without really understanding it....Perhaps some from organ-ized (Yahoo group) will migrate over and help give devil's advocate a bit....

UK? Nah, not me...I live in Buffalo, NY, always enjoying the Hammond history of the town, even though we're not in our glory days anymore, quite.

I liked what you said about the sharp keys, at least A and E -- funny, it used to be I dreaded the flat keys, like Db and Ab, but it's turned full circle the other way. Time to practice some more.

J.

[EDIT: Meant to say that "come grab a salad" was hysterical! That's classic humor.]

Edited September 24, 2004 by j lee

[Organfreak]

Another argument in favor of either the straight-up maj7 dogma OR the "leave the sevenths up to the performers" attitude which I tried to make is that the D-minor substitution, in, say, the third bar, doesn't really work as a substitution if the home chord is a Bb7. 

D half-diminished would work, though. That would "validate" the Ab. Also, there's no reason one has to "commit" to one or the other- it all depends on the context on the melodic line.

Hi, I'm the guy whom John was arguing with in a friendly way about this "Oleo" thing. So I came up here to finish him off <G>.

This point about the Dm7/G7 sub is where I dropped the thread. You are exactly right, though I call it a Dm7b5, same diff. What is not explained is that this common sub works even without the flatted fifth, giving some force to John's argument that the A natural is consonant with the MAJ 7th tonality. In actual practice though, it's used both ways all the time quite successfully when the tonality is Bb dominant 7th, and I honestly don't know why it works; it just does. This may be one of those (many) cases where jazz doesn't follow classic rules of harmony.

-Scott the Organfreak

[Free For All]

I live in Buffalo, NY

****OFF TOPIC WARNING****

Ahhhhh....home of the Anchor Bar!

And not far from Rochester, home of Country Sweet and Sal's. Funny how I connect each city with its local food legend. I miss my "road days"............

[Jim Alfredson]

Oh Jesus, the Organfreak has found my website!!! HA!

What's up, Scott? Your posting on the usenet are infamous. I dig your page too, with the live Groove recordings and such. I've got a boot for you if you're interested featuring Gene Ludwig, Pat Martino, and Randy Gelispie (hometown Lansing cat!) Welcome!

J Lee, nice to see another organists around here as well! Welcome to you too and to both, enjoy!

[Jim Alfredson]

Oh I should also say that I like using chords with both a major and minor seventh in them. It irks Joe G's ear, but I dig 'em!

[Free For All]

Hi, I'm the guy whom John was arguing with in a friendly way about this "Oleo" thing. So I came up here to finish him off <G>.

This point about the Dm7/G7 sub is where I dropped the thread. You are exactly right, though I call it a Dm7b5, same diff. What is not explained is that this common sub works even without the flatted fifth, giving some force to John's argument that the A natural is consonant with the MAJ 7th tonality. In actual practice though, it's used both ways all the time quite successfully when the tonality is Bb dominant 7th, and I honestly don't know why it works; it just does. This may be one of those (many) cases where jazz doesn't follow classic rules of harmony.

-Scott the Organfreak

Hi Scott! Welcome to you too! If you are an organ freak then you've come to the right place.

Yes, the A or the Ab would work fine. I think there is a lot of leeway in the interpretation of rhythm changes. Which is why they've become as standard as blues in the jazz repertoire.

As long as the other fundamental chord tones are strong in the iii-VI-ii-V cycle I think you can take some liberties with other chord tones, even one as vital as the seventh. The effectiveness of tension lies as much in the resolution of same, IMHO.

[Free For All]

Oh I should also say that I like using chords with both a major and minor seventh in them.  It irks Joe G's ear, but I dig 'em!

Maybe that's why you're here posting tonight instead of out playing a gig!

[Jim Alfredson]

DOH!

[Free For All]

[Jim Alfredson]

Hey waitaminute... what about you, muthafuc....

Reminds me of that ol' joke:

What's the difference between and dead frog in the street and a dead trombonist?

The frog was on his way to a gig!

[Free For All]

Hey waitaminute... what about you, muthafuc....

Reminds me of that ol' joke:

What's the difference between and dead frog in the street and a dead trombonist?

The frog was on his way to a gig!

Plus there are skid marks in front of the frog.

Don't mess with me regarding trombone jokes, MF!

[Alon Marcus]

A little bit off topic: in the world of jazz standards (I'm talking about the Tin Pan Alley pop songs, not tunes written by jazz musicians, that became common) there are many songs without harmonic identity. They just have strong and catchy melodies. On the contrary there are standards that are harmonically distinctive. Anyone could recognize Stella by starlight, All the things you are, Body and soul or "Rainy day" just by the chords. These songs contain surprising twists and modulations that make them unique. Generally they are thought as more challenging (both for the player and the listener).

[Organfreak]

Hi Scott! Welcome to you too! If you are an organ freak then you've come to the right place.

Yes, the A or the Ab would work fine. I think there is a lot of leeway in the interpretation of rhythm changes. Which is why they've become as standard as blues in the jazz repertoire.

As long as the other fundamental chord tones are strong in the iii-VI-ii-V cycle I think you can take some liberties with other chord tones, even one as vital as the seventh. The effectiveness of tension lies as much in the resolution of same, IMHO.

Not only am I an organ freak, I've been playing B-3 for about 35 years, playing jazz, funk and blues. I also teach. Good to meet another player who knows WTF he's talking about!

I think I figured out why the Dm7 works in Bb dominant seventh, without flatting the fifth of the Dm7. It's simply a matter of what we are used to hearing, in terms of Dm7/G7 being the iii/VI in a Bb blues (or Bb anything).

John, why have you disappeared from this thread?

-Organfreak

[Organfreak]

Oh Jesus, the Organfreak has found my website!!! HA!

What's up, Scott? Your posting on the usenet are infamous. I dig your page too, with the live Groove recordings and such. I've got a boot for you if you're interested featuring Gene Ludwig, Pat Martino, and Randy Gelispie (hometown Lansing cat!) Welcome!

J Lee, nice to see another organists around here as well! Welcome to you too and to both, enjoy!

It was John Lee who let the cat outta the bag about your site. Yeah, I'm "infamous" all right, not necessarily in a good way <G>.

Glad you like the live Groove recordings. They are priceless! Nothing like them anywhere. I hope the link appears at the bottom of this post.

Considering that a high court just threw out the law against bootlegs, YES, PLEASE! Set me up. And, pleased to meetcha.

-OF

[j lee]

Glad to see you made it over here, Scott -- I've really enjoyed reading some of the discussions here (great thread devoted to Don Patterson, for example) but only just got around to registering.

Haven't disappeared -- I've been spending the afternoon studying and admiring Jack McDuff's multi-tracked recording of Cole Porter's "Easy to Love." Really great boppish fills during the first tenor chorus, as well as total mastery of the head. (Maybe I'll start a new thread to see if anyone has any information about the particular sessions this tune was cut at -- it's a work of art, the way the engineer and/or producer gave each B3 track its own "spot" in the mix) Don Patterson has also got a fine recording of that tune using his great melodic/chordal comping underneath Sonny Stitt's statement of the tune's melody, as you know. The only two performances of that tune I think I've ever heard in instrumental jazz.

So, the consensus on "Oleo" seems to be in favor of a more fluid, context-dependent approach, which depends as much on the skill of the soloist as on any other consideration? I *think* that's the POV I was trying to make a case for over at organ-ized and, to some extent, here (although, in the latter case, not really trying to argue any particular point -- just present some different viewpoints for consideration). Is that something you'd be willing to go along with, Scott? Or would it be better to, for example, stick completely with the dominant for the head and use one's wits as an accompanist to tune in to the rest of the group for solos, etc.?

Cheers,

J.

Edited September 26, 2004 by j lee

[Organfreak]

Glad to see you made it over here, Scott -- I've really enjoyed reading some of the discussions here (great thread devoted to Don Patterson, for example) but only just got around to registering.

Two questions, John--

Why haven't you answered my private mail about this?

And, what's the name of the Patterson thread; I cannot find it.

Haven't disappeared -- I've been spending the afternoon studying and admiring Jack McDuff's multi-tracked recording of Cole Porter's "Easy to Love."

What record is that on???

So, the consensus on "Oleo" seems to be in favor of a more fluid, context-dependent approach, which depends as much on the skill of the soloist as on any other consideration? I *think* that's the POV I was trying to make a case for over at organ-ized and, to some extent, here (although, in the latter case, not really trying to argue any particular point -- just present some different viewpoints for consideration). Is that something you'd be willing to go along with, Scott? Or would it be better to, for example, stick completely with the dominant for the head and use one's wits as an accompanist to tune in to the rest of the group for solos, etc.?

John, I still wouldn't go along with that, no. Call me stubborn. I explained my reasons in detail in my private email to you. "A context-dependent approach" would be very simple: I still say that "Oleo," and many other rhthym-changes tunes are in the key of Bb dominant 7th, with no MAJ 7th expressed or even implied. The context of "Oleo" is Bb7, plain and simple.

-OF

[j lee]

Thanks, Scott -- I shall consider myself enlightened on this point from now on.

I actually didn't get an e-mail from you -- I'm guessing you must have sent to my free.fr (or online.fr -- same account) address, which I can't retrieve right now easily without setting up my other computer (just moved -- things are in a mess as of now). Is there any way you could resend to the yahoo acount (jr6670 + the usual at symbol etc.) assuming you still have a record (a big assumption, but hoping against hope the information isn't totally lost!)? Sorry about that -- I tried to give my good e-mail acct at the end of my message, but I believe yahoo must have interceded on my "behalf" somehow with this other account which, as I said, I haven't been using in a while....

Oh, the McDuff tune was originally on his "Soul Circle," but all the cuts have been released on CD (Concord, I think) on "The Last Goodun'." Patterson's version was originally on his session, "The Boss Men" (1965, on Prestige, I think), released on CD under Stitt/Patterson's names, as, also, "The Boss Men" (includes "Night Crawlers," a Stitt session using the same group as Patterson's "The Boss Men" -- Stitt, D.P., and Bill James on drums, and two cuts from "Patterson's People" -- which is now all available on CD across like three different reissue discs).

The Don Patterson thread is at http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=36&hl=

The thread's titled, "Don Patterson," subtitled "King of BeBop Organ" -- B3-er just added a link to an original tune he calls "Patterson's People" (I couldn't get the link to work, but I think others have managed just fine with it). It should also be listed under "Today's Active Topics" (or the equivalent) to reflect the new content added.

Cheers,

John

[BruceW]

yes...i have this special disk!

from a friend of a friend from his friend by the friend of his friend and from the friend of the friend of the friend of his friend friend....maybe it was his brothers friend...but i don't care about details

Hey my man,

We probably dealt with the same friend of a friend of his friend who was a friend of a friend of someone else's friend who had a friend of a friend who made these.

Yep! BUT they are nice and great references and also solve many arguments.

to the others

on a Bb meaning Bb6, Bbmaj 7, Bbdom7

i.e Bb dom 7 starting Oleo.

IMHO and after looking at all the books including some original writings by Sonny Rollins, a Bb does NOT imply a Bb dom 7. Everywhere you look when a dominant chord is desired or specified it is written Bb dom 7 or a Bb7; same for any dominant chord, A7 etc. A Bb always means a major tonality; Bb69, Bb6, Bb triad, Bb maj 7, Bb maj 7+11, Bb maj 13 +11, etc.... NOT a Bbdom7. A Bbdom 7 will be Bb7 or Bbdom7. (period) Now having said that, of course personal taste has crept into many musicians arrangements and approach. If one chooses to use a Bbdom7 and it works, so be it. BUT THAT IS NOW WHAT Bb by itself means.

IMHO and I recognize others opinions.

Keep playing jazz guys, but as Milt Jackson said once to one of his famous piano sidemen, "Play it right."

B-)

Bruce

Yeah, and I'm expecting a lot of flack from this and I'm okay with it.

[BruceW]

So earlier this year, I played it with another organist, backing up a singer. I asked her what key she sang it in, and she said C minor. I was confused by the minor, as we've been playing it in major. Sure enough, it was in Cm. Afterward, I questioned the organist about (a brother, very wonderful player, too) and he was adamant that it was a minor key song. I mean he was about to get up in my face about it - "Man, I've been playing that song for 10 years, and I ain't never heard of it in a major key!" All right, all right ...

So what gives? Are there two sets of changes to Here's That Rainy Day?

There can always be arrangements of a tune done in another key, especially when you have singers involved or big bands or even when guys just want to do it in another key. This does not change the home key or "original key" if you will. The original key will always be G.

Now this friend who claimed he never heard it in major probably didn't know he was playing it in Eb for his singer, not Cmi - (same key signature) IMHO. Even though this guy "sounded great" as a player, it could be he was slightly mislead and just played it that way eversince. No harm, no foul.

B-)

Bruce

[Organfreak]

IMHO and after looking at all the books including some original writings by Sonny Rollins, a Bb does NOT imply a Bb dom 7. Everywhere you look when a dominant chord is desired or specified it is written Bb dom 7 or a Bb7; same for any dominant chord, A7 etc. A Bb always means a major tonality; Bb69, Bb6, Bb triad, Bb maj 7, Bb maj 7+11, Bb maj 13 +11, etc.... NOT a Bbdom7. A Bbdom 7 will be Bb7 or Bbdom7. (period) Now having said that, of course personal taste has crept into many musicians arrangements and approach. If one chooses to use a Bbdom7 and it works, so be it. BUT THAT IS NOW WHAT Bb by itself means.

Theoretically speaking, this is correct. Are you saying that you have seen "Oleo" written down in Rollins' own hand? What everybody seems to be missing here is that "Oleo" is always played using Bb7. Anyone who did it any other way would be laughed off the band stand. I'm talking about professional practice, not theory. This is getting to be boring <g>.

-OF

[BruceW]

Theoretically speaking, this is correct. Are you saying that you have seen "Oleo" written down in Rollins' own hand? What everybody seems to be missing here is that "Oleo" is always played using Bb7. Anyone who did it any other way would be laughed off the band stand. I'm talking about professional practice, not theory. This is getting to be boring <g>.

-OF

Well don't get bored, remember SOMEBODY ELSE started this knit picking thread. I was merely clarifying on the theoretical side of that thread or threads. I also paid respect to those of you (including you) that if one chose to use Bbdom7 as the tonic, that was fine.

Tell me, why are so many people so sensitive on these threads?????

It is just a discussion, right??? I myself appreciate your input that professionally so many players use the dom7 instead of the Bb major theorum.

And yes, waaaay back, in Detroit at the Blue Bird Inn I was fortunate (did not know it at the time) to see some of his music. When he wrote Bbdom7 he meant it, and when he wrote Bb he meant a major tonality. FYI

B-)

Keep playing music

Bruce

Edited September 26, 2004 by BruceW

[Organfreak]

Well don't get bored, remember SOMEBODY ELSE started this knit picking thread. I was merely clarifying on the theoretical side of that thread or threads. I also paid respect to those of you (including you) that if one chose to use Bbdom7 as the tonic, that was fine.

Tell me, why are so many people so sensitive on these threads?????

It is just a discussion, right??? I myself appreciate your input that professionally so many players use the dom7 instead of the Bb major theorum.

B-)

Keep playing music

Bruce

Hi there Bruce,

Didn't you see my grin? I wasn't being very serious.

Anyway, yeah, for me, this discussion has been going on much longer, since John brought it up on another list first!

-OF

[j lee]

Well, I don't see the *thread* as a waste of time -- I don't know who initiated it, but surely the question can and should go far beyond picking apart any one particular tune.

Maybe everyone else already knew this -- in which case I can and must apologize for my naivete -- but I think it's not so bad to know that if one finds oneself in a jam-type situ playing "Oleo" it's best to play such-and-such a chord rather than risk ridicule, especially since it runs counter to the various published accounts of the tune.

Next?

[BruceW]

Hi there Bruce,

Didn't you see my grin? I wasn't being very serious.

OrganFreak

Good to hear back so soon.

I haven't seen the grin. There is a <g> appearing at the end of your threads but no pictures or anything. I'm a newbie on this bb and have to learn a lot of the abbreviations etc.

Well it is good to know that there was no feelings stepped on.

J Lee, I think this particular thread will apply to any tune that has a similar chord in a similar position. That is why I offered the theoretic info. And I think you guys are right in your appllication if the dom7 is used. To me the easy way around that for the soloist is to avoid using a 7th of any kind at that point. A pentatonic or a blues scale both fit well over either chord. The duraction of the chord is so short anyway. What do you think??

B-)

Bruce

Edited September 26, 2004 by BruceW