The joy of knowing the Chords

[Jim Alfredson]

I get accused sometimes of using "homemade" changes on standards. For instance, what is the standard bridge to "Georgia on my Mind"? Maybe not the standard, but the Ray Charles chords.

Body & Soul is another one that I've had to re-learn. I learned it off a Groove Holmes record and he's messin' with the changes big time. What's the bridge on that one according to Hoyle?

[Big Al]

Chords?!?!?! We don't need no stinkin' CHORDS!!! Of course, I'm a bass player.

[7/4]

What's the bridge on that one according to Hoyle?

It's in the cards?

[Joe G]

I'm glad you started this thread Jim, because just today I was thinking about Here's That Rainy Day. When we first learned that one about 6 years ago, we checked both the first Real Book, and the New Real Book (it is in F in the first, and G in the New). There was also a version of the tune by Melvin Rhyne (in F, IIRC) that we referenced. Also, at the time, Jim was studying with MI pianist Gary Shunk, who apparently agreed with the RB changes. We've been playing that tune ever since.

So earlier this year, I played it with another organist, backing up a singer. I asked her what key she sang it in, and she said C minor. I was confused by the minor, as we've been playing it in major. Sure enough, it was in Cm. Afterward, I questioned the organist about (a brother, very wonderful player, too) and he was adamant that it was a minor key song. I mean he was about to get up in my face about it - "Man, I've been playing that song for 10 years, and I ain't never heard of it in a major key!" All right, all right ...

So what gives? Are there two sets of changes to Here's That Rainy Day?

[Free For All]

Is this thread about Gsus?

[Joe G]

Yer a good one Paul. I'm keepin' my eye on you.

[Free For All]

So what gives? Are there two sets of changes to Here's That Rainy Day?

I think it's confusing to many because (as I learned the tune) the first chord is minor, but the tune ends on the major. Some people also play the first chord as major. I think the whole point of the tune is the minor/major back and forth, hence the "bittersweet" vibe of the lyrics.

Edited September 22, 2004 by Free For All

[Jim Alfredson]

Mel Rhyne's version is in G, which is why we play it in G. He starts on the major but to be honest, I don't think I've ever heard another version of the tune. Cm would be a neat key to play it in.

Come to think of it, at the top of the head on the second time around Mel does a chromatic movement down starting on the Gm chord, which I do sometimes. Maybe that's his reference to the original changes.

[Big Wheel]

Wait, what's the first chord if you play it in "minor"? The way the new real book has it is:

I | V7/bVI | bVI etc. (In G, G | Bb7 | Eb )

Is it just the common sub to a iii chord, ie, Bmin7? Or do you mean you change the G chord to a G minor chord?

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes. The G becomes a Gm chord. That's how the cat Joe is speaking of swears the song is played.

[Big Wheel]

Interesting. I guess it works either way, since the melody sits on a common tone between the two (the fifth).

[maren]

Is this thread about Gsus?

I thought this was a knee-slapper, FFA -- but when I googled, hoping to find the tabs, the very first site I found them was "Calvary Chapel dot com Worship Library Chord Charts" ! So I'd better not take the name of the chord in vain!

Edited September 23, 2004 by maren

[Shrdlu]

I think this thread should be moved over to the Politics section.

[casanovas347]

guys you make me laugh......

Gsus...... nice one! lolol

...."maybe i should have saved those left over dreams.......funny, but i can't find a 2nd version"...(lolol)

ok......i have everything here!

The Colorado Songbook (page 86)

The NewRealbook (page 138)

The Realbook1 (page 191)

The JazzFakeBook (page 147)

everything is in major........

ooh...that song remind me on a cool Barney kessel tune.......i guessed it was his answer!

"here's that Sunny day"......btw....its in RealBook2 (page 147..or so....)

greeetz

Paco

[Jazzmoose]

Chords? I thought you guys just made up this shit as you went along....

[BruceW]

guys you make me laugh......

The Colorado Songbook (page 86)

The NewRealbook (page 138)

The Realbook1 (page 191)

The JazzFakeBook (page 147)

everything is in major....... "here's that Sunny day"......btw....its in RealBook2 (page 147..or so....)

Hey Casanovas347

You must have that disk that is going around with all the books on it....... it is great isn't it??

However, where are these guys getting their information and keys from???? I can understand a singer changing a key to fit her voice range, but the rest of these guys......

Keep playing music

B-)

Bruce

[Jim Alfredson]

Who was it who said you don't know a tune until you can play it in all keys?

[Free For All]

However, where are these guys getting their information and keys from????  I can understand a singer changing a key to fit her voice range, but the rest of these guys......

I think learning tunes in multiple (if not all) keys is good practice as well as a practical skill.

I find the range of the melody often makes a tune prohibitive to play- why not do it in a different key? I find that tunes written for Eb instruments (like Parker tunes) lay pretty well on trombone, but tunes written for Bb instruments often are too low or too high and need to be adjusted key-wise. I wish Joy Spring was about a fourth higher- the head would be a lot easier to play. This has nothing do with the changes, just the head.

Another reason for changing keys is that I seem to know a LOT of tunes in the key of F, so I change keys when appropriate to keep things interesting.

Plus, after working on a tune in all 12 keys, I find that my understanding and fluency in the home key are significantly increased.

There are some exceptions, however- I feel that some tunes were written in a specific key for a reason. For example, I think Monk's tunes should stay in the same "sacred" keys (like Round Midnight). Or Body and Soul. Lush Life. I think they were written in the "darker" flat keys for a reason.

I think moving a tune a half-step or so to put it in an easier key is a bit of a cop-out, though. B-)

Edited September 24, 2004 by Free For All

[j lee]

I've always been sobered on the issue of playing any tune in any key by the interview with Bill Evans on "Piano Jazz" on this topic...."So, Bill, can you play any tune in...all keys?" His response was something like "Well, I'm not bothered by any key, but I'd have to really think about it before I started changing keys..." Chord progs are one thing, but when you're talking about a whole two-handed arrangement, it's not something I've ever felt was worth my while, unless as part of a specific arrangement or for reasons of sound/instrument range. But then again, I've never felt particularly bad about taking tunes in A or E and playing them in Ab or Eb -- so, cum grano salis, you know?

But here's a question -- maybe some of you followed this discussion on the organ-ized list -- where I posted a couple of choruses of my transcription of Don Patterson's "Oleo" solo. I wanted some help in trying to figure out that rhythmic pattern Don P. uses on several of the Bridge sections, so I posted some rough attempts in standard notation to make it easier for people to see what was going on...No one had any idea, and then the thread devolved into this ridiculous "discussion" between some others about the usual "aw, your just a copycat...just do your own thing" and the predictable responses. Not too interesting, and since then, I've trimmed down my posted transcriptions to just include a couple of those bridge sections -- not the whole thing.

BUT....I did post some changes above the bar, using generic rhythm changes with the Bbmaj7 on the first bar etc. It's true, I believe, that a lot of people use Bb7 to play the head and to improvise while hyping that chord, rather than Bbmaj7. (Although Don's solo, most of it, is in fact, diatonic to Bbmaj7, I believe, which is the reason I used that particular chord, in addition to the maj7 being a more generic, vanilla rhythm change thing).

However, every single printed source (Real Book, etc.) I've seen, puts "Oleo" with Bb (as such -- which implies the maj7th sound, as I understand it)....why's that? Have I got something terribly wrong here? What's going on?

Cheers,

John

Edited September 24, 2004 by j lee

[Free For All]

Hi John, and welcome!

Regarding your question, I have found the same thing to be true regarding the "home" key on rhythm changes. Frequently a one might play something from the blues scale, which then implies more of a dominant tonality. I

don't think the BbMAJ7 has to be "carved in stone" per se. To me, just writing "Bb" with no designated seventh implies that multiple interpretations are possible-

Bb MAJ7 , Bb dom.7, or Bb 6. It's all good.

[Shrdlu]

"Oleo" just uses the stock "I Got Rhythm" changes.

[Free For All]

"Oleo" just uses the stock "I Got Rhythm" changes.

Yes, I think he was wondering what type of tonic chord is appropriate.

[Free For All]

I've never felt particularly bad about taking tunes in A or E and playing them in Ab or Eb -- so, cum grano salis, you know?

Nothing wrong with that at all.

My feeling is that I play a lot in Ab and Eb, both keys I enjoy, so if I get a chance to play in A or E (which I rarely do) I want that experience. I find that some of the "undesirable" keys make me think and play differently (which is good, IMHO) and often "lay" better on the horn once you get over the initial unfamiliarity. When I started playing blues in Db (like Speedball, or the dreaded Woodchopper's Ball w/Woody) I was initially uncomfortable, but after doing it for a while, I now actually prefer that key to many others.

So come grab a salad! Sorry, don't have any Latin chops.

Edited September 24, 2004 by Free For All

[j lee]

Thanks for the responses, and for the hearty welcome, guys.

You know, Free For All, that was one of the points I raised with my interlocutor on organ-ized -- that, after all, if you think of sevenths as extensions or colors to a chord, then they should be dealt with by sensitive-to-the-soloist chordal players on the fly or, if need be, worked out ahead of time. However, I think the person who was trying to correct me made a pretty good point, namely that the dissonance between a major and minor seventh intervals is really a fundamental difference, when it comes down to maj vs. dominant "tonality" -- and that it can't be left to chance.

So, I, of course, replied that the clash between a maj and min 7th isn't inherently more crazy than a maj and min 3rd -- you know, Ray Charles's "Lonely Avenue" and the #9 chords. It was at that point that some apparently old business between some group members started up that I didn't know about, so the topic got dropped.

Another argument in favor of either the straight-up maj7 dogma OR the "leave the sevenths up to the performers" attitude which I tried to make is that the D-minor substitution, in, say, the third bar, doesn't really work as a substitution if the home chord is a Bb7. Again, this is a spot where you may know quite a bit more theory stuff than I do -- I may not be right at all about this, I realize.

Also, I was actually convinced when I went back to a few recordings of "Oleo" and really heard the dom7 quality pretty much throughout -- Miles's first recording of it (all soloists pretty much stick to this), Phineas Newborn's recording, Bill Evans first recording of "Oleo," and Miles's solo with his first quintet (on "Relaxin'") -- although on this last one, Red Garland seems to comp using Bbmaj7 VERY regularly.

So, in short, I don't know what to think about the correct way is, even though it's such a well-known tune that everyone's heard a million times. The exact words (I hope I get this right) of the well-respected (and prolific contributor to various Listservs etc.) Hammond organ teacher and performer were, "This isn't even discussable...Ask any professional musician." Mind you, I'm just a blues pianist with some organ chops trying to learn Hammond-oriented jazz playing.

Thanks for putting up with my confusion -- this one shouldn't be too hard to nail down, but I think it's clear there *are* some problems with putting anything down definitively as of now (for me, at least!)

J.

[casanovas347]

yes...i have this special disk!

from a friend of a friend from his friend by the friend of his friend and from the friend of the friend of the friend of his friend friend....maybe it was his brothers friend...but i don't care about details

Oleo.....there are a few other cool Rhythm-Changes tunes

my favs:

Seven comes eleven (i love Charlie Christian)

Dexterity

Flying Home

Wee

Good Bait (just the A-section)

the eternal triangle (bridge is a bit different)

greetz

paco