"Dave Digs Disney" question

[Shrdlu]

This is a great Brubeck album, and includes a superb version of "Some Day My Prince" will come. I have a mono LP, which has excellent sound.

On the sleeve of another Brubeck album, I see that "Dave Digs Disney" was put out as a stereo LP, CS 8090. Does anyone know whether this was a genuine stereo LP, or just another of Columbia's horrible fake stereo efforts?

The album was recorded in 1957, about a month after the "Miles Ahead" project, and we now know that Miles' album was recorded in real stereo, although never issued on LP in real stereo. It was put out as a fake stereo LP in the 60s, but its CS number was much higher than 8090, which is an early Columbia stereo number. So, it is possible that the Brubeck did come out as a real stereo LP.

There is a fairly old CD of this album, but even if that is stereo, it would not necessarily tell us anything about the LP.

Thanks for any help anyone can give.

BTW, I might ask the same of "In Europe", "At Newport" (58) and "Eurasia", all of which also appeared on "stereo" LPs. (The LPs after those are safe.)

[Michael Fitzgerald]

When did fake stereo become part of the record labels' weaponry? Not as early as 1957, right?

The Summer 1959 Sam Goody Jazz 'n Pops catalog includes Eurasia, Newport (and Reunion on Fantasy) as their entire Brubeck stereo section. Brubeck in Europe is included in the stereo new releases section. The Disney album is in the mono section. Does this last bit mean anything? Perhaps not - they might have just overlooked the stereo issue.

The Neal Umphred Goldmine book lists all Brubeck Columbia records as S for stereo and not E for Electronically Rechanneled for Stereo. The Tim Neely Goldmine book uses an R for Rechanneled. Still all Brubeck on Columbia is just S in there.

Mike

[JSngry]

The Summer 1959 Sam Goody Jazz 'n Pops catalog...

Do you collect Schwann catalogs too?

When I was at NTSU and decided to go "up a notch" when it came to collecting, finding all the old Schwanns in the college library was a godsend.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I have a few. I don't really collect anything. I just accumulate.

Mike

[JSngry]

I don't really collect anything. I just accumulate.

I can relate to that...

[MartyJazz]

Apropos of the discussion of Brubeck mono and stereo recordings, I made an interesting find a few years ago. For many years I've owned a stereo Brubeck LP titled ANGEL EYES with a gorgeous blue-eyed blonde woman's face on the cover. I've always loved the first track in particular, a swinging take of "Will You Still be Mine". A few years ago, I'm at the local library where one can find quite a few items of interest that people hand in for the library to sell for mere pennies, e.g., books and most importantly, LPs. So I cop this clean mono copy of ANGEL EYES for the outrageous sum of 25 cents. Just to make sure how clean it is in terms of sound, I put it on the turntable and DAMN, the take of will You Still be Mine" is most definitely an alternate one and also quite good. So I now have both the stereo and mono copies of Brubeck's ANGEL EYES Columbia releases in my collection. Anyone else aware of this, especially any Brubeck or Paul Desmond discographers out there?

[Shrdlu]

When did fake stereo become part of the record labels' weaponry? Not as early as 1957, right?

The Summer 1959 Sam Goody Jazz 'n Pops catalog includes Eurasia, Newport (and Reunion on Fantasy) as their entire Brubeck stereo section. Brubeck in Europe is included in the stereo new releases section. The Disney album is in the mono section. Does this last bit mean anything? Perhaps not - they might have just overlooked the stereo issue.

The Neal Umphred Goldmine book lists all Brubeck Columbia records as S for stereo and not E for Electronically Rechanneled for Stereo. The Tim Neely Goldmine book uses an R for Rechanneled. Still all Brubeck on Columbia is just S in there.

Mike

Thanks a lot, Mike. That almost settles it. Your observation about fake stereo probably not being put out as early as 1957 is pretty decisive. We all know that stereo LPs were not in great demand as early as that, and so Columbia probably would not have felt under pressure to issue a mono session in reverb fake stereo back then. The bad LPs of "Miles Ahead", "Milestones", "Jazz Track", "Armstrong Plays Handy" etc. did not blight the scene until well into the 60s, when Columbia must have thought that people would not buy an LP if it was "only mono".

The sleeve that lists the Disney album as being available in stereo is that of "Gone With The Wind". I can't date my LP copy of that. It is a six-eye, but with a silver and red label rather than black and red (which was the original color scheme) and the stamper numbers are 2F and 2AD. It's definitely not a first pressing.

As for the "In Europe" album, this was recorded in Copenhagen, and, as with the Mulligan Concert Jazz Band tour recordings (1960), it is likely to have been a mono recording. (But it was recorded in 1958.)

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That's very interesting about the alternate take, Marty. It also happened with "Autumn Leaves" on Bill Evans' "Portrait In Jazz" album. This was because Riverside's stereo tape recorder broke down during the master take; they did another take in stereo, and only used the master take for the mono LP. I think this also occurred with the "Mulligan Meets Monk" album.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I have the CD version of this album... not that old, really... copyright 1994. It is mono. I imagine that the stereo version of this LP was electronically reprocessed from the mono mix.

BTW, this CD has decent audio. It also has 2 unreleased tracks, "Very Good Advice" (5:31) and "So This Is Love" (5:56), making it doubly worth picking up if you dig the LP.

Later,

Kevin

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I disagree with Kevin's assumption and offer this:

According to the Umphred Goldmine book, "While many, if not most, of the studios recording jazz in the '50s began using two tracks as far back as 1956-57, most of them did so only for the increased latitude it allowed in mixing down to mono. When stereo became a viable commercial medium toward the end of the decade, many companies returned to the original multi-track tapes and mixed them for stereo release. Thus hundreds of titles, recorded only with mono in mind, were issued to the new stereo enthusiasts. Many of these contain the most rudimentary form of stereo, with little or noe of the stereophonic imaging that makes the enjoyment of stereo essential to most listeners. For that matter alone, aside from having the *original* mix, most jazz collectors prefer the mono over the stereo, even when the stereo is the rarer of the two."

To discographies such as Lord, Bruyninckx, and Raben, the mono versions and stereo versions of the Dave Brubeck Angel Eyes album are equivalent. Which we now learn is *incorrect*. Marty - would you mind doing some listening to the other tracks? My copy is the stereo "360 Sound" issue of CS 9148. Is it just that one track or are there more differences?

There are a number of examples of this. The Umphred book points out this case: "When Capitol decided to issue June Christy's Something Cool in stereo in 1960, they whisked together the singer and a band back into the studios and recorded the entire album from scratch. And, while almost all collectors prefer the performance of the original, it nonetheless functions as an entirely 'new' album for Christy collectors." Ellington Indigos and JJ Johnson & Stan Getz At The Opera House are other cases where the mono and stereo albums differed.

The main reason this isn't widely known, I think, is because people rarely go through the process that Marty describes. They buy the record and if indeed they are careful listeners, they still only get one version ingrained in their memory. They don't have the other version to compare - why buy two? This is how alternative takes were discovered among 78 rpm collectors. It was all just chance - then eventually people learned about matrix numbers and other clues. The two versions of Coltrane's Ascension, too.

Of course, to a discographer, this is fascinating stuff and I would definitely want to document more discoveries like the Brubeck Angel Eyes situation.

Mike

[Shrdlu]

This is all very interesting.

As I recall, the CD reissues of "Miles Ahead" were all mono until Phil Schaap spent ages with surviving tapes and was able to produce a stereo version, the first ever.

Thanks for posting the fact that the Disney CD is mono, Kevin. I have never heard that CD. How's the sound on that? There have been complaints about the sound on some of those older, purple-bordered Columbia CDs, though the ones that I have heard sound fine to me. (I am glad to have the older CD of "Armstrong Plays Handy", as it has some different takes from the later, admittedly definitive, CD reissue.)

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The Miles Ahead story is a bit more complicated. It is all detailed in the boxed set. The original CD was rechanneled stereo, but it was the "wrong" takes. The second CD had the "right" takes but was mono. Yes, I bought both and still have them. And then I bought the box.

Mike

[Shrdlu]

Mike, I just meant that the Miles CDs were not real stereo until the most recent one.

That box set is both fascinating and exhausting. There are so many snippets. They are not arranged in the order that I would prefer, so I play the set on my multi-CD player and have to do a lot of programming to get the bits and pieces in chronological order. It is time-consuming, and not something that I have time to do very often.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

My main reason for figuring that the master tapes were mono was the fact that there are these 2 extra (previously unissued) tracks. Obviously, they pulled the master tapes to make this CD. If there were both stereo & mono tapes, I would have thought they'd pull the stereo tapes if they had them.

BTW, the CD says "previously released as CL 1059". No mention of a stereo release. Maybe it never made it out?

Does anyone have the stereo LP version of this? One listen and this mystery would be solved.

Later,

Kevin

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Not claiming that stereo for this is guaranteed, but as the bit that I quoted says, early stereo recordings weren't really doing stereo right - so even if a stereo LP issue came out, it might not have been all that great a mix. So when CD time comes around, mono might be better. As I recall, this was done for the first Donald Byrd Blue Note record. The Mosaic set used mono, even though a stereo LP exists.

Mike

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Not claiming that stereo for this is guaranteed, but as the bit that I quoted says, early stereo recordings weren't really doing stereo right - so even if a stereo LP issue came out, it might not have been all that great a mix. So when CD time comes around, mono might be better. As I recall, this was done for the first Donald Byrd Blue Note record. The Mosaic set used mono, even though a stereo LP exists.

Mike

When the word got back to Michael Cuscuna at Mosaic that they grabbed the mono tapes for "Off to the Races", he told me it was mistake on his part. However, he did say that it wasn't a terrible mistake because the stereo mix of this date was typical early stereo by Rudy... rhythm in one track and horns on the other. He gave me the impression that the mono was better. Of course, having the earlier stereo TOCJ CD, I told him that the stereo mix on this date was fine to my ears.

Later,

Kevin

[jazzbo]

However this is not always a safe assumption to make, that early stereo is bad. There are beautiful examples of early stereo. . . check out any of the earliest Columbia stereo recordings for example. . . FANTASTIC. Also check out nonbiglabel work such as the live Tristano date with Konitz (in 1955!) and the recent Marsh at Dana's Point (excellent stereo recording in my opinion, a little too much audience noise but that too has its pluses).

[Shrdlu]

My BN's from the 1500 series are all CD versions, and so most are stereo where stereo exists (from about May 57 onward). I don't recall any sounding bad to me, but it is known that Rudy never liked the Hackensack stereos.

The only bad Hackensack "stereo" that I know is the individually available CD of Trane's "Settin' The Pace" album (Prestige, of course). This is taken from a rechanneled LP master, and there is some annoying phasing in the cymbals. (I had the LP with that problem - it came out in the late 60s.) The box set version of this session is real stereo. Strange. (Rudy did not start stereo for Prestige and Savoy as early as he did for Al Lion, by the way. Most, but not all, Prestige sessions were mono-only until about March 1958. An early Prestige stereo is "Wheelin' And Dealin'", again by Trane, and from 1957.)

[medjuck]

Also check out nonbiglabel work such as the live Tristano date with Konitz (in 1955!) and the recent Marsh at Dana's Point (excellent stereo recording in my opinion, a little too much audience noise but that too has its pluses).

Wow! 1955!!. That's the earliest stereo recording I know of. Was it meant to be stereo or did osmone sync up too separate recorders?

[jazzbo]

As far as I know/can tell it was meant to be stereo. It's in the Konitz/Marsh/Tristano Mosaic. Beautiful sound!

[Chuck Nessa]

Wow! 1955!!. That's the earliest stereo recording I know of. Was it meant to be stereo or did osmone sync up too separate recorders?

RCA began regularly recording their symphonic dates in stereo in the first quarter of 1954.

[MartyJazz]

To discographies such as Lord, Bruyninckx, and Raben, the mono versions and stereo versions of the Dave Brubeck Angel Eyes album are equivalent. Which we now learn is *incorrect*. Marty - would you mind doing some listening to the other tracks? My copy is the stereo "360 Sound" issue of CS 9148. Is it just that one track or are there more differences?

There are a number of examples of this. The Umphred book points out this case: "When Capitol decided to issue June Christy's Something Cool in stereo in 1960, they whisked together the singer and a band back into the studios and recorded the entire album from scratch. And, while almost all collectors prefer the performance of the original, it nonetheless functions as an entirely 'new' album for Christy collectors." Ellington Indigos and JJ Johnson & Stan Getz At The Opera House are other cases where the mono and stereo albums differed.

The main reason this isn't widely known, I think, is because people rarely go through the process that Marty describes. They buy the record and if indeed they are careful listeners, they still only get one version ingrained in their memory. They don't have the other version to compare - why buy two? This is how alternative takes were discovered among 78 rpm collectors. It was all just chance - then eventually people learned about matrix numbers and other clues. The two versions of Coltrane's Ascension, too.

Of course, to a discographer, this is fascinating stuff and I would definitely want to document more discoveries like the Brubeck Angel Eyes situation.

Mike

I would have replied sooner however a second hurricane here in southeast Florida put me out of commission until today.

I confess that I have not painstakingly compared each of the other tracks on the ANGEL EYES session as of yet but will do so to see if other alternate takes exist. BTW, I'm surprised that I have yet to see this session issued on CD, at least here in the U.S.

[jazzbo]

I have a Japanese stereo cd of Angel Eyes. . . . So glad that I do!

[medjuck]

RCA began regularly recording their symphonic dates in stereo in the first quarter of 1954.

Bones Howe once told me that when he was engineering for Verve they didn't want to pay for stereo so he paid for it himself and kept the tapes! I don't know which sessions and I keep hoping to run into him again and ask him if they've ever been released.

[Shrdlu]

RCA began regularly recording their symphonic dates in stereo in the first quarter of 1954.

That's right, Chuck. I have a stereo LP of the definitive version of Brahms' First Piano Concerto, by Artur Rubinstein with Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony. It was recorded in 1954. Only the mono LP was issued at first, of course, and Rubinstein recorded the piece again in the early 60s. As a result, the 1954 stereo version was not issued until the late 70s (vinyl, that is). A (stereo) CD was issued, too, later on.

[Shrdlu]

A near-mint LP of Brubeck's "Jazz Impressions of Eurasia" arrived recently. For various reasons, I have never heard this album before. It is genuine stereo, which agrees with Mike's post.

This is a very haunting album, by the way, quite different from all of Dave's other albums. There is quite an experimental aspect to it - the subject matter makes this inevitable, of course, but the Quartet is well up to the task. I was amazed to read that Dave's tour that year (1958) took him to places like Pakistan and Afghanistan! I can't really imagine there being much of an audience for jazz in Kabul! The opening track, "Bedouin", was inspired by a camel train that passed by Dave's Kabul hotel during the night, with a flute and camel-mounted drums. Dave says the sound made his hair stand on end!

The discography that I read claims that 4 of the 6 tracks were recorded in Warsaw, Poland, and the two others in New York. But all 6 tracks have the same studio sound (and it doesn't sound like the 30th Street studio, either), so I am skeptical about that information. I realize that with various adjustments to the sound during mastering, all tracks could perhaps be made to sound the same acoustically, but I still have my doubts. But it makes little difference, really.

I am now satisfied in my mind that the Disney album was never released on LP in real stereo. But, bearing in mind what happened with "Milestones", it is possible that stereo tapes do exist, and maybe a stereo CD will appear if and when they re-reissue this album.