The future of jazz cds

[connoisseur series500]

I was in a music shop in a college town over the weekend and noticed that their "jazz space" had shrunk since my previous visit. I asked the owner what was going on and he said that they had reduced the offerings in order to create space for other types of music.

So what happens to the cds when they retrench? Do they go into the bargain bins or are they sent back to the labels? He said that they send back whatever they can then put the others into the bargain bins.

My question for you all is what is the future for jazz cds? Is the market shrinking, and are the labels less likely to reissue old stuff? Do the sales of the reissues justify the whole exercise of reissuing out of print titles?

[Guest Mnytime]

Considering I get 99.5% of new releases through the net I don't mind. I am generally only in stores (that is when I was still healthy enough to go myself) to get used CD's.

[Matthew]

I think there will come a time when the jazz cd market will be made of 90% reissues. With music programs in Elementry & High Schools drying up, who, in the future will be able to play this music? Where will the new talent come from? Maybe Europe will become the creative nexus in the coming years, since they still teach music to kids. An added factor is, frankly, it's just too damn expensive to maintain a cd buying habit. I would be willing to take more chances on artists I don't know at $11.00 a pop, but not when list is commonly now at $18.99. It really is a bad sign when a city like San Francisco now has not one single jazz club! Being a jazz fan can be a downer at times.

[Ed S]

Not a single jazz club in SF? Wow, that is a shame.

I used to go to a local Media Play for discs. They were cheaper than Borders and always had a good selection Not any more. It's pathetic - perhaps 15% of the size it used to be - and in total disarray.

A local chain - Record Theatre has a a decent selection of the newer stuff, but considerably smaller than say - 5 years ago.

The local Borders has the best selection around. The jazz section has lost maybe 10% of their space in the past few years - but you pay the full pop over there. I rarely buy anything that's not on sale.

I guess I'd like to see retail stores have better selections, but I can see why they don't. We've heard over and over that jazz does not sell. That really does appear to be the case. It's too expensive to have all this inventory sitting around for the few guys who'll come in and dig out some older releases.

Like most here, I use the net over 95% of the time. I like the instant gratification that a store provides but not enough to spend the extra cash. Heck, you can get discs $4-5 cheaper than new releases at Borders in many cases. The lack of sales tax over the net usually offsets the shipping costs. The selection is better as well. Now when the internet stores start dropping titles then we're in trouble.

[Ed S]

Maybe Europe will become the creative nexus in the coming years, since they still teach music to kids.

Europe, and Orchard Park, NY. I feel lucky that my 3rd grader gets music lessons at school. I know many school districts have eliminated music. I pay the way for his piano. At school, he takes viola.

I'm trying to talk him into switching instruments and joining the 4th and 5th grade jazz orchestra.

Edited May 27, 2003 by Ed Swinnich

[Claude]

Maybe Europe will become the creative nexus in the coming years, since they still teach music to kids.

In jazz, the US still have a big advantage in education, as there are jazz bands at school and university, something that is almost non-existent in Europe. Music education is exclusively classical, young musicians play jazz on their own initiative.

[connoisseur series500]

I think there will come a time when the jazz cd market will be made of 90% reissues.

Is there a future for reissues as well? I would imagine that if the new artists don't sell enough then the labels won't feel compelled to sell reissues either; or perhaps they will just focus on the main ones; sort of like Blue Note focusing on RVGs only.

Doesn't matter where you buy your stuff, online or in retail stores, the main question here is whether jazz will be phased out to just issuing main titles owing to insufficient interests.

[David Ayers]

Considering I get 99.5% of new releases through the net I don't mind.  I am generally only in stores (that is when I was still healthy enough to go myself) to get used CD's.

But perhaps you should mind. Only about 4% of record sales are made online. Without stores the bulk of sales will be lost and all projects whether new or reissue, will become less viable. For most jazz collectors it is the availability of LPs which is the important issue. No-one has any real affection for the CD as a commodity or as an audio experience. CD collections (unlike record collections) are worth far less than they cost (at shop value). I think the truth is that we are at the end of the reissue cycle with no really compelling new music coming forward and it is hard to imagine jazz not slipping.

Edited May 26, 2003 by David Ayers

[connoisseur series500]

I think the truth is thought that we are at the end of the reissue cycle with no really compelling new music coming forward and it is hard to imagine jazz not slipping.

My feelings also.

BTW, I believe as the reissuing phases out that cds will develop a "collector's value," as vinyl has today. Would love to hear what others think about this.

[jlhoots]

I buy almost entirely online also.

Why would I pay $18.98 + tax at a Borders brick & mortar store when I can buy the same CD online for much less???

[A Lark Ascending]

Like the rest of you I'm more or less forced to buy most of what I want online. I have to go to the very big cities to see anything like a range beyond the standard Verves.

One straw in the wind in the UK. I overheard the owner of a jazz shop (remember those?) on Saturday explaining how HMV stores in the UK were changing their buying policy and that all stocking will be done centrally from now on with no discretion from local managers. Now most Brits will say 'Isn't this what they do anyway?' given the weak place of jazz in most of their stores. But currently there are a few HMV stores with reasonable selections - I travel to Leeds about once a month and can generally find something of interest there. That is clearly going to change.

However...

I don't feel too much gloom about jazz CDs drying up. Have you seen the release schedule on alankin's site? For a music that is supposedly dying there is an immense amount of product...much of it obscure, specialist...pouring out. Most is destined to only sell a few copies yet still it comes. This is what puzzles me. If jazz is selling so little why is there so much out there and continuing to pour out?

I've attended two very well attended jazz festivals in the last month. At the end of every gig there has been a rush of people wanting to pick up a CD by the performer. I somehow think that is what will change. We will probably see jazz marginalised in the high street. We'll see the majors get less and less interested. But we'll probably also see an increase in artists making their own CDs or small labels handling a select number of people; and a few specialist shops and on-line sites.

Which might make the music more difficult to obtain...but will actually mean the musicians will put out what they intend, not what the record companies require in the hope of a crossover hit.

The state of the majors and the high street stores might be frightful...but when I see just how much jazz is still being made I find it hard to be pessimistic.

[Rooster_Ties]

There is really only one store in Kansas City with prices decent enough to purchase from, but only because I have access to a sort of "employee discount", even though I don't work there. Yeah, it isn't "fair", but I figure they get more of my money that way, than they would if I were getting all my music on-line.

Actually, my buying habits have shrunk to almost nothing recently (since late last year), due to external circumstances. During that time, the one store in Kanas City (part of a regional chain) was bought up by another regional chain (back east). They're jazz selection is now controled out of some central office in New Jersey. Although they do get some new jazz releases in, it's hit or miss from week to week. None of the recent round of BN Rare Groove titles came in, for instance. And very few (if any) ECM's.

Sure, I could order things through them, but why bother.

I'm not buying at the moment, but I'm sure when my financial situation improves, I'll start getting most of my music on-line, since that's really the only way to go. I'll never pay Barnes & Noble or Borders prices, that's for sure!!!

[Nutty]

It's sad when music stores get rid of their jazz sections, but what's even worse is when management/employees don't take a well-stocked jazz section seriously. I'm sure

[Tjazz]

BTW, I believe as the reissuing phases out that cds will develop a "collector's value," as vinyl has today. Would love to hear what others think about this.

With CDRW making cdrs of 'rare' cds seems like the value of CDs would be reduced slightly.

But you look at ebay and you can see some OOP CDs that sell for big bucks. Even alot of the OOP CD Mosaic sets sell for $40-50/disc sometimes.

I just saw a Joan Armatrading CD sell for $140, yet you can get the LP for $1.

[Dmitry]

Maybe Europe will become the creative nexus in the coming years, since they still teach music to kids.

Europe, and Orchard Park, NY.

How's the used cd scene near Buffalo?

[David Ayers]

However...

I don't feel too much gloom about jazz CDs drying up. Have you seen the release schedule on alankin's site? For a music that is supposedly dying there is an immense amount of product...much of it obscure, specialist...pouring out. Most is destined to only sell a few copies yet still it comes. This is what puzzles me. If jazz is selling so little why is there so much out there and continuing to pour out?

I don't think you can judge the nature of interest in jazz from the number of (re)releases and the amount of vanity publishing (yes, loss-making self-issues etc) that goes on.

There are probably a few thousand collectors world wide who sustain the market in reissues. It is questionable whether such collectors constitute a viable audience base for a music that aims to be both popular and cerebral (and yet actually is not quite either).

It is quite evident that jazz does not have the massive audience base of opera and classical music, which can pack large opera houses and concert halls even when competition is stiff. It is not clear that an audience of CD collectors (as opposed to a real social audience including, as at opera and concerts, many women) can meaningfully sustain the activity. As I have argued before, it is not clearly important that people in general should have a range of Donald Byrd CDs to shoose from in their record stores. This is already a matter for collectors, who by the way are of two sorts - musicians and fans.

So yes there are masses of reissues out there, but this is no guarantee of a meaningful future for jazz, nor is it clear that any entity called 'jazz' deserves or desires such a future. Eminem makes more meaningful music than Greg Osby, like it or not.

[Simon Weil]

It is not clear that an audience of CD collectors (as opposed to a real social audience including, as at opera and concerts, many women) can meaningfully sustain the activity.

I think the question of women may be important for the future of Jazz. It is telling that so few women turn up on these internet boards/usenet discussion groups, whereas plenty seem to turn up to concerts. Evidently Jazz playing has been very much an activity for men and it remains rather difficult for women to make it to the top. To me this seems basically social , and I rather think the same obtains in these discussion groups and in Jazz collecting as well. Yet women do have an interest in Jazz, as evidenced by their appearance at concerts - and there is no real reason why, for example, a majority of leading figures in Jazz shouldn't be women. Simply in terms of numbers (there being as many women as there are men), you could look to a doubling of the Jazz CD buying audience if these social barriers were removed. And having key, central figures in Jazz who were women would doubtless also help.

And there's the burst of energy you'd get from an influx of new people.

Simon Weil

[A Lark Ascending]

David,

I wasn't thinking about the number of reissues. I was thinking about the amount of new music coming out. That strikes me as quite staggering for a music with a shrinking audience.

Jazz Services did a survey three or four years back to estimate the support for jazz in the UK. The figures they came up with had jazz as equal with opera and not far behind classical in general.

The difference is that opera and classical are widely regarded as 'culture' by the Old Etonions who run things in the UK so they get the lion's share of the subsidy. One of the reasons I loath the whole concept of 'art' (to refer back to an old argument!!!!).

I'm pretty sure that the majors (shops and record companies) will give up on jazz completely in time. The idea of improvised music is so strong, however, that it will get out somehow...probably through the likes on Enamen.

Edited May 29, 2003 by Bev Stapleton

[Rooster_Ties]

For most jazz collectors it is the availability of LPs which is the important issue. No-one has any real affection for the CD as a commodity or as an audio experience. CD collections (unlike record collections) are worth far less than they cost (at shop value).

'no-one' really like CD's?????????

I own about 3,000 CD's, and maybe 50-75 albums (LP's) at most. And I know a number of other people who have more CD's than I do. And sure, I also know a couple people who have 10,000 LP's in their basement. Maybe true "collectors" crave vinyl, but there are plenty of music lovers who love CD's as well.

This may be a generational thing, because personally I don't know any serious music fans under the age of 45 with large LP collections, but I know plenty with large CD collections. Conversely, nearly all the LP fanatics I know are over the age of 45. At least that's been my experience, with people I've met, face to face. (I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.)

(Given the option of buying something on CD or LP, I'll buy the CD nearly every time - if I think it's a recording that I'll want to listen to for years to some.)

Edited May 29, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

So yes there are masses of reissues out there, but this is no guarantee of a meaningful future for jazz, nor is it clear that any entity called 'jazz' deserves or desires such a future. Eminem makes more meaningful music than Greg Osby, like it or not.

(re: Eminem more 'meaningful' than Greg Osby)

Excuse me, but are you seriously suggesting that Greg Osby's music is lacking worth??? Have you heard any of his work since about 1996??? Sure, his earlier CD's before '96 were (I felt) somewhat lacking. But I think every disc he's released since "Art Forum" in 1996, and especially since Jason Moran joined Osby in 1998 - are some of the best recorded jazz albums of the past 5 years. Osby's "Symbols of Light" features a string quartet used in a way that I've rarely heard in jazz, and I think this album is one of the top 25 albums of the last 20 years.

I'm not saying you gotta like Osby, but at least give a little respect. Osby less 'meaningful' than Eminem???????

[connoisseur series500]

I own about 3,000 CD's, and maybe 50-75 albums (LP's)

Wow Rooster! I'm approaching 500 and I think I've got too much already (at least my wife thinks so.) Of course, I'm still buying, but addictions take time to play themselves out with me.

[Rooster_Ties]

About 40% of my CD's are classical titles (and about half of those were found used for $5-$8 each, or are cheap Naxos titles).

About 40% are jazz, and the remaining 20% are rock/alternative CD's.

My wife thinks I have way too many CD's, and in her defense - I have been thinning the heard quite a bit in recent months. Actually, I think I have more like 2,500 CD's currently, down from an all-time high of 3,000 a couple years ago.

[connoisseur series500]

I only listen to jazz.

[Simon Weil]

Jazz Services did a survey three or four years back to estimate the support for jazz in the UK. The figures they came up with had jazz as equal with opera and not far behind classical in general.

The difference is that opera and classical are widely regarded as 'culture' by the Old Etonions who run things in the UK so they get the lion's share of the subsidy. One of the reasons I loath the whole concept of 'art' (to refer back to an old argument!!!!).

So change the equation. Make them see it as art - and not just art, but some of the greatest and most substantial art of this era. Which is what it is.

Then they'll be stuck.

Simon Weil

[A Lark Ascending]

Here's how subsidy works in the UK based on 1999-2000

JAZZ

£0.25

OPERA

£12.75

CLASSICAL MUSIC

£2.26

Compare with the relative audiences.

Opera

4%

Orchestral Music

13%

Jazz

7%

[Research surveys of Great Britain Ltd prepared research for the Arts Council on Arts and Cultural Activities in Great Britain. 1 Their research produced the following figures on the percentage of the population who listen on the radio to opera, classical music and jazz.]

That strikes me as a healthy audience for jazz (I know it says nothing about record buying habits) which is not being reflected in its slice of the promotional cake. Who knows what might be achieved in increasing the audience if things were more equitable. (To be fair the Arts Council have increased spending on jazz in recent years...but the gap is still enormous).

Source of the data:

http://www.jazzservices.org.uk/ex/report/jinuk.htm