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A very telling interview--Chris A

Newsweek

Oct. 18 issue

A Trumpeter Unmuted
Wynton Marsalis gives a piece or two of
his mind to NEWSWEEK's Allison Samuels.


SAMUELS:Does New York really need yet another place to hear jazz?

MARSALIS: There are a lot of jazz clubs in New York, and we support them. But we wanted this place to embody jazz and the democratic spirit of the music. We also wanted it to help the music thrive by having an educational program. And that meant having the space to teach, to hold performances not only for seasoned artists but also for younger, upcoming artists, and a place to celebrate our elders.

Some critics say that by paying tribute to such legends as Coltrane and Monk, you hinder the growth of new artists.

You can't go forward without history, and if we can't celebrate our history and the history of the music—that's a truly sad day. I always felt like my generation never did anything in terms of great art—or if we did, I missed it. If you look around today, there are many more students of jazz than there were in my generation.

Do African-Americans truly appreciate this art form?

Well, we have a pretty uncultured leadership, by and large—and that's for all groups. But Afro-Americans don't support the arts in general, and that's sad. It's been true for a long time. It's hard to get the African-American audience out for the arts. I know, because I'm out there working with kids and trying to get them involved. I'm not in some glass tower looking down. I'm always around our people, and I see that the knowledge is not being given to make this culture ascend.

You were very hard on hip-hop early on.

I'm still hard, but not just on hip-hop. The entire country has been in decline in terms of the arts. A lot of what I said back then was exaggerated, because the media loves to make blacks seem like they're downing other blacks. But, in truth, this country is known for putting a lot of trash into the world, and that's not just hip-hop music. I hear my son's music, and it's stuff like "bitch" this and "n-----" that. That lingo was popular way back in the '70s with the pimp movies, which we lapped up. But you can't just single out hip-hop when you talk about what's wrong with the country, and you can't blame the kids. Short of being given rituals of initiation into adulthood—and art courses that demand engagement and development of your taste—there is nothing to do but descend.

You've never had a very good relationship with some white jazz critics. What do you think they'll think of your latest project?

Who knows. I'm not waiting to be validated. Maybe at 20 years old I was, but not now. It's the same ole thing with the critics. If you're black and not bowing your head to them and their vision, then you're too arrogant. If you Tom for them and play rock, or whatever, and make them feel comfortable in their authority—then you're OK and you get the head rub. But I didn't bow my head before, and I'm not going to bow now.

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Chris,

there was an equally interesting interview with Wynton on 60 Minutes II last night with Ed Bradley.

Among other things, Ed asked about why Wynton doesn't like the avant-garde and also why has slighted white jazz musicians. W's answers were pretty much what he always says but there were a few new things.

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"I always felt like my generation never did anything in terms of great art" - problem is, the fools at the Pulitzer Prize didn't believe him.

The 60 Minutes interview could have been done almost 20 years ago but for some of the talk of the new concert hall. Same tired shit. Blah blah democracy, blah blah basketball, blah blah etc.

Mike

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Jim and I caught the Ed Bradley interview. Our assesment was in line with Mike's. They didn't really talk about the scope of the performances that will be held in the new venues, and they didn't even mention his latest album for Blue Note. Not very insightful, I must say.

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You've never had a very good relationship with some white jazz critics. What do you think they'll think of your latest project?

Who knows. I'm not waiting to be validated. Maybe at 20 years old I was, but not now. It's the same ole thing with the critics. If you're black and not bowing your head to them and their vision, then you're too arrogant. If you Tom for them and play rock, or whatever, and make them feel comfortable in their authority—then you're OK and you get the head rub. But I didn't bow my head before, and I'm not going to bow now.

So, is the argument then that most criticism of Wynton is racially motivated???

I know, Wynton didn't specifically say the exact phrase "white critics" in his answer, but he does say "them" - in specific reference to the afore mentioned "some white jazz critics". And then he immediately talks about being Black, and not "Tom"-ing for "the critics" (which he implies are the "white critics" – since their the only critics specifically mentioned in the question).

So then, it sure sounds to me like Wynton thinks most criticism of his work is racially motivated.

Which is pretty damn pathetic, if you ask me.

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You've never had a very good relationship with some white jazz critics. What do you think they'll think of your latest project?

Who knows. I'm not waiting to be validated. Maybe at 20 years old I was, but not now. It's the same ole thing with the critics. If you're black and not bowing your head to them and their vision, then you're too arrogant. If you Tom for them and play rock, or whatever, and make them feel comfortable in their authority—then you're OK and you get the head rub. But I didn't bow my head before, and I'm not going to bow now.

So, is the argument then that most criticism of Wynton is racially motivated???

I know, Wynton didn't specifically say the exact phrase "white critics" in his answer, but he does say "them" - in specific reference to the afore mentioned "some white jazz critics". And then he immediately talks about being Black, and not "Tom"-ing for "the critics" (which he implies are the "white critics" – since their the only critics specifically mentioned in the question).

So then, it sure sounds to me like Wynton thinks most criticism of his work is racially motivated.

Which is pretty damn pathetic, if you ask me.

Are we truly interested in elaborately parsing an interview that no one else--not the interviewer, not Newsweek, not Marsalis, took very seriously?

I wouldn't waste a single adjective on it.

--eric

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Well, Crouch's criticism is certainly racially motivated. Crouch claims that the reason musicians like Dave Douglas and the Bad Plus get so much good press is because they are white. OTOH, I find that many novice jazz listeners accept the received notion that black musicians are more "authentic" than white musicians. I know I did, when I first started listening to jazz. It took me several years to get over this absurd, and frankly racist, notion that caused me to overlook artists like Dave Brubeck, Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, and Bill Evans (except on "Kind of Blue," of course). The idea that musicians are inherently superior or inferior by virtue of their skin color, and that critics (especially white critics) dole out their favors based on such criteria, is so offensive...arrrgh! Why can't we all just get along?!

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Well remember "New Kids On the Block" the boy group? Their joke name among the city kids I knew (both black and white) was "New Kids Who Aren't Black."

Granted, Couch and Marsalis often (cynically, I think) use race as a trump card against any and all adversity they might face, but the fact is race does still play a very important role in cultural consumption, as you yourself point out.

Pick up a copy of the Source, for instance. They fly the racialist flag pretty prominently.

It's complicated, much more complicated that Crouch's exploitation of the issue will generally allow, but I think the reactions of many people to Crouch are equally telling--they refuse even to consider for a moment that race might be an issue in the success of a band like Bad Plus.

I see no reason whatsoever to be so sure, or to be dismayed that the issue should be raised.

--eric

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Rooster Ties:"So then, it sure sounds to me like Wynton thinks most criticism of his work is racially motivated."

  • This reminds me of a time, in the early Sixties, when I took over management of a NYC radio station. I immediately set out to make the all-white staff more representative. One of the five black people I hired was our switchboard operator, and she was very good except for the fact that she listened in on conversations. After receiving a few complaints, giving her a warning, and receiving further complaints, I took her off the switchboard and had her trained as traffic director, which actually was a better job. It was her responsibility to get tapes and discs to the control room in time for broadcast and to send tapes to our other stations when they requested them. She made an absolute mess of it--tapes were put in the wrong bins and sent to the wrong places. Again, I gave her a warning, but it didn't help. So, when the BBC asked me what they should do with a huge box of tapes they had just received--a box that should have gone to our LA station--I had to let her go. "You're just firing me because I'm black," she said, threatening to report me for discrimination. She never did, but it's that same illogic we see applied to Wynton, isn't it?

    I have found that people who deeply resent any critique of Wynton often attribute that criticism to racism or jealousy. They seem to find it inconceivable that anyone could objectively find fault with his music. Wynton's supporters rarely discuss the music in any detail and I sometimes have a feeling that they really haven't given it the listen they claim it deserves. I have often been told that white people don't like Wynton because he is a successful black man--of course, those who present that theory forget that he is by no means the only successful black musician, while, at this point, he is probably the most disrespected high-visibility jazz musician.

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so why the fuck doesn't Wynton do a program devoted to the music of John Carter?

when Bobby Bradford passes, will Newsweek write one word about it?

i know some decent folks here differ but i long ago made the decision to NOT support this creep.

it was boggling to even see a discussion of his Blue Note cd-- like wow, 40th album, jerk makes an "ok" blowing session-- like i said, wow.

Wadada Leo Smith lives--

clem

I agree with all of this except "creep" & "jerk".

How do those words enhance one's opinion??

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Confession time: I've never really paid much attention to Wynton. Yeah, I know he's a big name in jazz, but jazz is such a tiny sandbox that I never noticed him until I came to the BNBB. But is this interview so outlandish? Most of what he said made sense to me. Are you guys sure you're not just filtering this interview through other sources or something?

More to the point, will I be officially banned now? :wacko:

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Confession time: I've never really paid much attention to Wynton. Yeah, I know he's a big name in jazz, but jazz is such a tiny sandbox that I never noticed him until I came to the BNBB. But is this interview so outlandish? Most of what he said made sense to me. Are you guys sure you're not just filtering this interview through other sources or something?

More to the point, will I be officially banned now? :wacko:

I agree :tup

I mean, there's so much great other stuff out there to discover and cherish, that to entirely ignore Wynton or any other prominent musician for that matter, is not really a big deal.

However, the fact that he is the one the media goes to as the point person for jazz, is troubling, to say the least. But what can you do?

And by the way, if you've been paying any attention, in practice he is really loosening up with the programming at JALC. I mean, revering the music of Cecil Taylor with concerts is not exactly ignoring it. I wasn't there so I don't know how tame they required Cecil be but ain't nobody who can tame a guy like Cecil really.

Also must people like us haven't taken the opportunity to look at the ranks of the programming staff at JALC. The leadership of JALC, where I once interviewed for an unpaid internship, has among its ranks, "educated voices of reason" to counter Wynton's "neoclassicist" viewpoints. For instance - Phil Schaap ("prominent" jazz historian and radio personality) IS on staff there as is that dude who used to run the Keystone Korner in SF - that place hosted its share of "out" acts over the years as I understand it. We all know these guys are not jazz purists. And I think it's fair to say that if one looks closely as what JALC is doing for jazz, its no longer limited to a cult of personality for Duke and Pops like it was in the 90s. They are changing with time - in my opinion for the better. There are guys "on staff" like Stanley but it is my belief that currently and in the long run JALC will present a more fair account of jazz history to the people they educate.

But at the same time they will probably never accept people who record for ECM and guys who have unfortunately been placed at opposing ends of the spectrum by the jazz press - like Dave Douglas.

Jeez. Look at all the time I've wasted talking about this nonsense. Now back to that Jan Garbarek CD I was gonna check out. ;)

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Disagree about Schaap being some kind of foil to Wynton. When he got the job he started kissing that ass right quick. Over his career, Schaap has dabbled in things outside of the swing realm, but in his heart he has always been a perfect match for the Lincoln Center company line.

The two of them together would love to rewrite history. And both have this thing about pretending they were present at events they weren't. Schaap is anything but the "educated voice of reason".

Mike

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Confession time: I've never really paid much attention to Wynton. Yeah, I know he's a big name in jazz, but jazz is such a tiny sandbox that I never noticed him until I came to the BNBB. But is this interview so outlandish? Most of what he said made sense to me. Are you guys sure you're not just filtering this interview through other sources or something?

More to the point, will I be officially banned now? :wacko:

I go along with Moose here.

I didn't see too much to complain about the excerpt, although it had its share of racial inanities.

I can't stand Wynton's music.

I have never found him particularly offensive as a person or speaker. I think we can be frightened of his stature as jazz commenter: the media treats him as a jazz god. That's scary for sure.

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You've never had a very good relationship with some white jazz critics. What do you think they'll think of your latest project?

Who knows. I'm not waiting to be validated. Maybe at 20 years old I was, but not now. It's the same ole thing with the critics. If you're black and not bowing your head to them and their vision, then you're too arrogant. If you Tom for them and play rock, or whatever, and make them feel comfortable in their authority—then you're OK and you get the head rub.

I can't get all that worked up about Wynton either, but this puzzled me. Is he saying that there are actually jazz critics out there who WANT jazz musicians to "play rock"? This is news to me, and frankly strikes me as nonsense.

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"There is no better trumpeter on the face of this earth. This guy is beyond belief, what he can do both in classical music and in jazz, technically. But in general I think that Wynton has not grown, has not developed to the extent that I thought he would, in terms of inventiveness and originality as a player and as a composer."

- Gunther Schuller (NYT 10/18/04 p.E7)

Mike

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"There is no better trumpeter on the face of this earth. This guy is beyond belief, what he can do both in classical music and in jazz, technically. But in general I think that Wynton has not grown, has not developed to the extent that I thought he would, in terms of inventiveness and originality as a player and as a composer."

- Gunther Schuller (NYT 10/18/04 p.E7)

Mike

Um, Mike, citing criticism by Gunther Schuller, a white man, seems to help cement Wynton's point a little, doesn't it?

You know, as much as we talk about this guy, it's funny to see our on-line racial profile. One of Wynton's biggest on-line critics, Chris Albertson, is white. Mike, you don't seem too fond of him and I assume you're white. Chris has mentioned some artists who have stated they don't like Wynton's playing, specifically Toshiko Akiyoshi and Lew Tabackin and they are white. On-line at least, it would seem that the whites are dissing him. Maybe Wynton's a lurker? :D

Later,

Kevin

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Oh, don't get me wrong... I know there are plenty of blacks who complain about Wynton. It's just that in our little Internet world, many of the critics seem to be white. Of course, one of his biggest defenders, Hardbop Heaney, is also white so maybe the Internet is just full of white guys who like to complain? :)

Later,

Kevin

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You know, as much as we talk about this guy, it's funny to see our on-line racial profile. One of Wynton's biggest on-line critics, Chris Albertson, is white. Mike, you don't seem too fond of him and I assume you're white. Chris has mentioned some artists who have stated they don't like Wynton's playing, specifically Toshiko Akiyoshi and Lew Tabackin and they are white. On-line at least, it would seem that the whites are dissing him. Maybe Wynton's a lurker? :D

Later,

Kevin

Are you an unemployed sociologist or statistician?

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