cannonball-addict Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) I am having a really hard time getting turned on to Liebman though my sax teacher totally worships the guy. It seems he's done like 60 tributes to Trane. I DO like his recent big band CD but mostly for the other cats on it. On the new Saxophone Summit CD, he seems to play mostly soprano. Why is this? Why not play tenor like the other guys? Can anyone share their feelings on this dude. He often plays too much like a technician; without soul. Any recommended recordings? Early stuff? New stuff? Edited November 20, 2004 by cannonball-addict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alon Marcus Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Try this album Conversations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I am having a really hard time getting turned on to Liebman though my sax teacher totally worships the guy. It seems he's done like 60 tributes to Trane. I DO like his recent big band CD but mostly for the other cats on it. On the new Saxophone Summit CD, he seems to play mostly soprano. Why is this? Why not play tenor like the other guys? Can anyone share their feelings on this dude. He often plays too much like a technician; without soul. Any recommended recordings? Early stuff? New stuff? His contributions to Miles Davis's Dark Magus at Carnegie Hall are really nice, though according to him he had much better performances with that band. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) Just curious - how old is your sax teacher? Because if he's roughly my age (48 and going fast...), he's more than typical of the cats I went to school with. Never really developed a love for the guy, but I have come to develop a whole helluva lot of respect for him, mostly from a few personal encounters (educational, social, and playing) over the years. The guy's incredibly knowledgable and is into sharing his knowledge with anybody who really wants to learn. Along those lines, there was a book called Lookout Farm from the mid-70s that included Liebman providing virtually note-by-note analysis of his own solo transcriptions. That's at once totally cool and kind of disturbing. Cool because it's as detailed and personal a breakdown of the whats & whys of anybody's playing as you'll find, but disturbing because I don't know that that much self-awareness while playing is necessarily a good thing. But who am I to say? Liebman actually quit playing tenor for about a decade because he felt that he couldn't shake the Trane thing, and that was bugging him. He chose to focus on soprano to find his true voice. I respect the hell out of that. More Clonetranes should take that lesson to heart! Another thing he did while away from the tenor was to explore both his Jewish heritage and the music of Bartok in order to find that voice. Again, I respect the hell outta that, because it shows me that he's aware that, no matter how hard you try, and no matter how badly you want to, you can't duplicate Trane, especially if you're not from that chrono/cultural milieu. Again, a lesson that needs to be learned by many! Personally, I like him much better on soprano, where I think his quest for a truly personal voice has borne fruition. If I was to give a recommendation, it would be two somewhat obscure ones under Teo Macero's name: THE SPIRIT and THE BLACK KNIGHT. Edited November 20, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Pusey Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 How about some considered view about the Select now that it has had a chance to sink in? Still not got around to getting it and so far not a whole lot of enthusiasm, push me over the edge or draw me back in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Tony, I share your point of view. Have yet to be really impressed by Liebman. He is OK in my books but I think I'll pass that Select! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 i lump him with steve grossman as two guys with jewish sounding names who i have no interest in ever listening to and i don't understand why both miles and elvin used them so much. i would much rather have heard more azar lawrence, for instance, than grossman's brutal soprano keening. i am just not interested in where liebman or grossman are coming from or what they have to say. i just listened to "drum ode" for the first time in a while, and i decided i don't like it. mostly because i do not think the ECM production (yes, i think that is a "thing") particularly lends itself to this kind of music-something grittier would have been better. some of the lookout farm stuff is almost good, but it doesn't get to me like much other music of this timeframe does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Grossman's PM stuff is pretty cool, albeit in a totally gonzo way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 i agree the PM stuff is cool, but to me, that is more about the band and instrumentation than grossman's contributions per se. liebman's PM stuff is ok too, but i don't love it. (open sky unit) someone should sample the intro to "drum ode"-i am surprised no one has yet. it is liebman giving a pseudo-hippiesh talk about "the drums". brief, but you can tell he was wearing tie-dyes (which he is in the photo for one of those miles live albums) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTMX Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I've put Dave Liebman in that group where if I saw his name in the credits of a recording, I'd take more of an interest in it and might purchase it. Oh, who am I kidding - I'll buy a CD just because it's round. But I think what pushed me over from I'll-listen-to-him-if-he's-there to I'll-make-an-effort-to-listen-to-him were his performances on Elvin Jones' Live at the Lighthouse recordings, included in the Mosiac box set. Actually, it was two performances in particular: his flutework on My Ship and his soprano sax on Fancy Free. I had a lot of stuff, like Dark Magus, that Liebman played sideman on, and I'd always liked reading any articles, reviews, or linernotes that he had written (especially for the Elvin Mosaic) but nothing really connected with me until I heard those live performances. I don't think he's ever surpassed those performances, but I'll keep an ear out in case he does. I'm still listening to the Mosaic Liebman/Beirach set, nothing's hooked me yet, but nothing's put me off either. I played My Ship and Fancy Free for my sax teacher, who is considerably younger than me (he was about 23 or so) and his reaction was "Meh". Then he told me about an IAJE convention (I think) where his friend talked him into skipping a Lovano performance to see Liebman. He said he should have gone with Lovano instead. For an interesting contrast, check out the Tribute to Coltrane DVD which has Liebman, Wayne Shorter, Richie Beirach, Eddie Gomez and Jack DeJohnnette playing some Trane tunes (Mr. PC, India, Impressions, etc) live in Japan. Shorter and Liebman both stick to soprano for all songs so it's interesting to contrast the styles of these two 'cerebral' players. Speaking of contrasts, tonight I get to contrast the saxophone stylings of Pharoah Sanders and Ravi Coltrane, both sitting in with the McCoy Tyner Trio. Hot damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I saw him live recently playing duets with Marc Copland. I found the music depressing & angst ridden. Guess I wasn't in the right mood that night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I hadn't heard any Liebman for years, and just thought of him as another Trane clone. Earlier this week, I received a copy of Greg Waits' CD, ....and into the light, on which Dave Liebman plays, and enjoyed some of his playing. From this, it sounds as if he's lost the obvious Trane influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 You can find some obscure recent Liebman on a duo recording with my former teacher, Mike Gerber: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cactus.red/cactus/cactus.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannonball-addict Posted November 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Ok this has been somewhat helpful. Jim, to answer your question he is 39, almost 40. Of course he is a North Texas grad who then inevitably went on to a "fulfill" a self-fulfilling prophesy of being the best tenor player in the Pittsburgh area (of course following a brief period on the road with a ghost band, and a string of cruise ships). I understand where Liebman is coming from with the "Trane" complex. I've heard Brecker has the same problem. He is very self-conscious; often asks the musicians around him if they think he played alright. Interestingly they are both Jewish tenor/soprano players, as am I. I've pondered to myself many a time: How can Michael Brecker not be satisfied with his own playing? He has a sound. He has his own style - even his own vocabulary. I wouldn't run to develop my sound the way he has, but at least he has one which is identifiably his. Perhaps the Miles session will help. But maybe it just wasn't meant to be. I fill like there's nothing to latch onto with Liebman. I have the Beirach duo and the Homage to Coltrane CDs but I'm still unconvinced. I like a guy who is soulful - a guy who occaisonally throws a blues lick into the mix - not just constant substitutions and reharmonizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 A Knotty (but Cordial) Debate NY Times review . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Just curious - how old is your sax teacher? Because if he's roughly my age (48 and going fast...), he's more than typical of the cats I went to school with. think david liebman is the one saxophone player my sax teacher (who is a bit younger, in his mid-thirties and who likde grossman iirc) used to say rather ugly things about (though i vaguely recall him saying about some record "in that context even dave liebman doesn't sound bad") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Playing the (Sweet, Sweet) Horn of Peace David Liebman Blows the Mind and Cools the Fray, From Miles Davis to the Middle East Read more: http://forward.com/articles/136795/#ixzz1KrPSEErZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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