Brad Posted May 31, 2003 Report Share Posted May 31, 2003 I finally received this cd, as part of my shipment of Spanish Blue Notes and I have to agree with those who criticized this session. I listened to Volume 1 and while the first cut is generally listenable, it seems like the trumpets are trying to out duel each other and because it's so long, the solos seem to meander. However, on Walkin' there seems to be little connection between the trumpet solos and James Spaulding's solo, which I found almost unlistenable and quite jarring. A 19 minute version of this song is just way too long. And this is one record where the quotes just don't add a lot. I read somewhere where a quote just shows that the musician at that point has temporarily run out of ideas. While I don't normally agree with that, here it seems to fit the bill. The one exception here is the work of the conga player, Big Black. He lays down a nice beat and background in the first cut and that saves the piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 31, 2003 Report Share Posted May 31, 2003 I bought this cd quite cheap last year and after a quick listen went racing back to the store to trade it in for something else. Didn't like it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted May 31, 2003 Report Share Posted May 31, 2003 Funny, I snagged these from the Spanish BN bonanza too. I have owned these off and on over the years, never been shy about trading them back in. This time, they seem to be a little more inviting ... franky more as background than for concentrated listening. The "historical" aspect is so compelling (i.e. Lee and Freddie) that it makes me expect so much from these ... although now I think I can finally accept them for what they are. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted May 31, 2003 Report Share Posted May 31, 2003 I think it's a fine album if you want to know what the guys would've sounded like if they'd recorded for Prestige! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicAlex Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 I was highly disappointed with this album. One of the least played Blue Notes I own. Gave it one listen...it wasn't "spirited" enough for me and the sound was terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 I think it's a fine album if you want to know what the guys would've sounded like if they'd recorded for Prestige! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 (edited) Met Big Black a coupla years ago. He said this session was one of the highlights of his career. An interesting footnote is this was one of the first sessions recorded of Lee after he had been mugged and had some teeth knocked out. On Pensitiva at the beginning of his "trumpet duel" with Freddie, you can hear Lee is having chops problems. However, by the end of the tune, he is playing heroically. I've read on both this board and the old BNBB that this is a controversial recording, with many people disaproving of it. I think some of the criticism is valid. But to say the playing wasn't "spirited", couldn't be further from the truth. From all accounts, the audience was in a frenzy. Especially during Pensitiva's trumpet duel, the audience is cheering like they are at a sporting event. If you ever have the opportunity, just ask Big Black. Edited June 2, 2003 by Cali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 It is my understanding, this was a tape given to BN to satisfy Hubbard's contract, so he could move on to Atlantic. BN bought it to keep the recording (with other valuable BN artists) out of other label's hands. BN issued it to recoup money advanced to Hubbard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 "Jordo" doesn't cook? You guys are tough. "The Night of the Cookers" is a rough recording, but it has its moments (IMO). I was at a David Murray concert a few years back when he had James Spaulding with him. He introduced him as "James Spaulding of the Night of the Cookers." Spaulding does cook pretty hard on "Walkin' too, while showing some strong Dolphy influences. Just my opinion, people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 I used to own the 2CD U.S. release, but traded in back after I had it for about a year. Didn't do much for me. Now I wish I had it again, but then if I got it again, I'm sure I'd find it sorely lacking, and want to trade it again. Chuck's explaination makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 It is my understanding, this was a tape given to BN to satisfy Hubbard's contract, so he could move on to Atlantic. BN bought it to keep the recording (with other valuable BN artists) out of other label's hands. BN issued it to recoup money advanced to Hubbard. Wow...people playing politics....and here I always thought that it was all just about the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 (edited) Does anyone actually really know when the incident occurred in which Lee Morgan was mugged and had his teeth knocked out? It was first alluded to by Duke Pearson (although listed as a swimming accident) in the liner notes to BN's shameless Memorial album that came out minutes after Lee was killed. Recently, it was stated on this board that the incident occurred shortly before the recording date for The Stroker, and that it explained Lee's weak chops on that record. The incident was also used to explain his chops on the Lighthouse date. Now, it is claimed that it occurred before Night Of The Cookers, explaining some weak chops there. The incident in question, by the way, may have occurred outside Slugs', where Lee was later killed. Burton Greene told me a few years back that it was a rough place, and that he almost got stabbed there himself. A more interesting question seems to pop up - why is it that Lee appears to have chops problems on certain recordings, and it seems to be apparent on different recordings for different listeners? Could we be holding him to a higher standard that other trumpeters (KD and Miles leap to mind)? Or could his chops have gone up and down according to his involvement with drugs? Are there any of his colleagues out there who know any more about this mugging? As a general rule (and this was pointed out to me by the Rutgers student who did his thesis on Lee), much more is known about Lee's early years than his life during the sixties. In fact, come to think of it, what do we know about these musicians' lives during the second half of the sixties? Jackie Mac actually owned a candy store near Slugs', which is not something I would immediately associate with him. Another student at Rutgers was on the old board, and was working on a thesis on Mobley. I wonder how much he found out about him in that period. There are very few known interviews (I know of only two). Bertrand. Edited June 2, 2003 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Well hopefully when the JRVG comes out we can all buy it again, and then trade it in again when we are reminded why we traded it in the last time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Could we be holding him to a higher standard that other trumpeters (KD and Miles leap to mind)? Or could his chops have gone up and down according to his involvement with drugs? Or could it have been as originally stated? Not relying on somebody's thesis, but recall from when the said incident happened around 1964. It was discussed on jazz radio programs before The Night Of The Cookers was recorded, years before The Lighthouse recordings. As a matter of fact, before the mugging incident was reported, there was a rumor that Lee was dead. The local jazz station here, KBCA, dedicated a whole day to playing only recordings by "the late, great" Lee Morgan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Cali, This is exactly the kind of first-hand info I was looking for! Since you remember hearing about the beating around 1964, and since I know that Lee had some stretches of inactivity (i.e. no recordings) in the later sixties, I'm starting to wonder if there were not several such incidents, and if the earlier one messed up his chops permanently. However, at least to my ears, his chops are fine on such later recordings as Sonic Boom, so I'm not sure how permanent the damage was. It was always my understanding that the famous anecdote about the radio tribute around 1962 was more the result of Lee's being off the NY scene than any erroneous reports of his actual demise. The dee jay had just made an assumption. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent, Paris Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 (edited) Hi Bertrand and Cali, One of the best recollection we have about Lee Morgan's troubles is the one by Bennie Maupin in his liner notes to the Lighthouse boxset. He writes that, when he joined Lee's quintet : "his chops were still healing after an unfortunate altercation that left him with a busted lip and some very looth teeth". As far as I know, Bennie Maupin went with Lee in 1970 (probably spring, even if he had recorded with him earlier for BN) and the session we refer to as "The Stroker" was recorded in september/october 1969. That's why I assumed that his troubles and his weak playing on this date are related to this incident. Lee was beaten in front of Slug's which opened round 1965-66 I believe. Now, something I'd like you to consider. I was recently browsing through the book "Blue Note Jazz Photography of Francis Wolff" (the one in color) and I was struck by a picture. On page 43 is a photography of Wayne Shorter shoot during the recording of "Night Dreamer" (april 29, 1964). This is the same picture which was used for the Connoisseur reissue of "Etcetera" designed by Patrick Roques in 1995. On the background of this picture is someone who has a bandage all around his head, as someone who has been injured. His face is cut on the "Etcetera" cover (see above) but it is NOT in the book. Unfortunately, it is much darker printed in the book than on the CD booklet, but it seems to me that this man could really be Lee Morgan. We know Lee is on 4 of the 6 tracks from "Night Dreamer", and on the picture, he sat next to Shorter. Judging by their position, it cannot be Elvin Jones (there's no drum in front), it cannot be Reggie Workman (no bass) and it doesn't seem to be McCoy Tyner sitting at the piano. So, could it be Lee ? Could you check into the book and let me know what you think about it ? Edited June 2, 2003 by Vincent, Paris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Only good thing about Wal*Mart are their large CD cover images..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent, Paris Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 (edited) Regarding the "Night of the Cookers" session, Freddie Hubbard said recently that he recorded with Lee Morgan at that particular time because he KNEW Lee had been down for a while, was not on top shape then and so he would be sure that Lee wouldn't be able to beat him ! Edited June 2, 2003 by Vincent, Paris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Freddie really was paranoid about Lee cutting him! Vincent, I remember now wondering the same thing about the headband around Lee's head, as to whether it could be a result of injuries sustained during the legendary beating. I seem to remember that the color photo in the book clearly shows that it is Lee standing there next to Wayne with the headband, or did I see a bigger version of this photo elsewhere? I will check my book tonight. If it is Lee and it is a bandage, perhaps he was laready injured in 1964, which would be consistent with Cali's recollections. I wouldn't put too much faith in Freddie's recollections - remember that he also thinks he joined the Messengers after the Sidewinder was a hit. We know of course that that was around the time he left. In fact, Lee rejoined just after Sidewinder was recorded, probably when he was still having financial trouble. Bertrand. P.S. Vincent, I sent you a package last Wednesday. You should be getting it shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Looking at the Walmart photo again, I am sure it is Lee Morgan with the headband. Why? Look at the ears. There's a reason Lee was nicknamed Howdy Doody! Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 I would generally take Hub's comments about anything with a grain of salt. Seems like every interview I've read with him there have been a number of things he's said that made me go: . Can't cite anything specifically, but it seems he does have a creative memory - not that he's got a corner on that market, to be sure!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent, Paris Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 (edited) I wouldn't put too much faith in Freddie's recollections - remember that he also thinks he joined the Messengers after the Sidewinder was a hit. We know of course that that was around the time he left. In fact, Lee rejoined just after Sidewinder was recorded, probably when he was still having financial trouble. Year, I agree with you about Freddie's comment - but I think you got an idea of the feeling on stage during those nights!!! The "night of the cookers" happened between a European tour Lee Morgan did with the Messengers (it is during that time that the BBC filmed the group in London, the one with Gilmore) and the "Rumproller" recording session, both time when Lee's playing was still very strong. But, year, Freddie was really afraid by that cat ! [ And I got your package this morning. Thanks for everything. I look forward seeing you soon ] Edited June 2, 2003 by Vincent, Paris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 On the background of this picture is someone who has a bandage all around his head, as someone who has been injured. His face is cut on the "Etcetera" cover (see above) but it is NOT in the book. Vincent, thanks for the picture. I had never noticed that before. Maybe Lee was serially mugged back in the day. Excuse me for making light of his misfortunes. I truly loved Lee. Even had the good fortune to give him, Blakey, and Jymie Merritt a ride to their motel after a Messenger gig at the ManneHole back around '63 or '64. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 (edited) Cali, If it was '63 or '64, it probably was Reggie Workman (and 1964). If you are sure it was Merrit, however, then it would have to have been 1960 or 1961. Jymie left the band in 1961 or 1962, and I don't think he came back later for a spell. I could check Mike's Fitzgerald's Blakey chronology, but it's late. You are lucky to have met these master musicians. I was born in 1963. Bertrand. Edited June 3, 2003 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 (edited) The Messengers' UK session for Jazz 625, which was recorded during March 1965, had Victor Sproles on bass ... Edited June 3, 2003 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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