brownie Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I'm with you too, Westbed. The Night of the Cookers really cooks. from the 'Pensativa' opening tune on. I stayed away from this thread so far because that ground had already been trampled in a previous discussion on the old BNBB which amounted to about the same thing with a lot of negative thinking and very few dissenters. I have enjoyed the blowing on that club date even if I did not like the sound. I have the vinyls and the sound was not much. Hope the RVGs improve on it. But Lee Morgan and Freddie Hubbard are not in to settle scores but to check how far their improvising imagination could take them! And both win! Plus Spaulding is cooking right along! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) I have to admit that in listening to the RVG I do appreciate COOKERS a lot more...the sound improvement over the old US CD is a big factor, given the importance of the club atmosphere. So you can get more of a sense of the palpable excitement. There are also a good many excellent moments - hey, you get a bunch of great improvisers to blow for 20+ minutes, they're going to come up with more than their fair share of "damn!" moments. So it's a valuable document and worth having to me, and its raised in my estimation now that I can hear and FEEL what was happening a little better. Still, I continue to feel its main value is as a document of that vibe and era, and for some good-spirited showboating by some musical masters, than as a "classic session" from a musical standpoint. For me, musically, after "Pensativa" which is grand-standy but reasonably restrained and light-hearted (plus a flat-out classic tune), it degenrates rapidly into almost self-parodic "hot playing." Many, many examples abound to illustrate what I'm saying, but perhaps none more telling than the castration of the tune "Breaking Point," eliminating the free elements that made it such an interesting piece in the first place for the sake of greater opportunities for undisciplined blowing. Jazz isn't and never was about chops alone. This is a good example for people who called Freddie Hubbard a callow technician (unfair, I think, based on the high quality of his other BN leader dates and appearances) to use as a case in point. Edited July 15, 2004 by DrJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wish you guys would quit saying such good things about this, causing me to want to get the damn thing after all! If you like jazz (I assume you do since you're posting to the Org! board). If you like jambands (such as Phish, Widespread Panic, or String Cheese Incident), you need to get 'The Cookers.' You need it, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I think that we wouldn't even discuss this session if it were not a Blue Note recording but only an obscure live set released on Fresh Sound, Storyville or any othe non-cult jazz label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I think that we wouldn't even discuss this session if it were not a Blue Note recording but only an obscure live set released on Fresh Sound, Storyville or any othe non-cult jazz label. Isn't it more about the musicians (Hubbard, Mogie, Spaulding, mainly, also LaRoca), than the label? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I think that we wouldn't even discuss this session if it were not a Blue Note recording but only an obscure live set released on Fresh Sound, Storyville or any othe non-cult jazz label. I believe, if Cookers was only an obscure live session, we wouldn't discuss it because we wouldn't be aware of it. It is a Blue Note session, however. It is known, available, and perfomed by some of the best. Obscure or not, there are some big jazz names involved with this recording. To my ears, they are playing in a most excellent, live, raw format. Gives me the tingles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I suppose I'll have to revisit this one of these days. I used to own the old US version and was underwhelmed by the whole date. But, time goes on and our perceptions change, so maybe I'll give it another shot. But...I would still have picked MANY other titles to reissue before this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) I think that we wouldn't even discuss this session if it were not a Blue Note recording but only an obscure live set released on Fresh Sound, Storyville or any othe non-cult jazz label. Isn't it more about the musicians (Hubbard, Mogie, Spaulding, mainly, also LaRoca), than the label? What I was trying to say is that this average session (despite the great names) would be passed over by most jazz fans if it weren´t a Blue Note album. I discovered the second Volume on a used LP some 15 years ago. There were noticable and audible marks on the passage where the Big Black solo ends. The previuous owner probably skipped that tedious conga solo every time he listened to the record. Blue Note should have released this CD with index points, so the Big Black solo could be skipped more easily Edited July 15, 2004 by Claude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I think that we wouldn't even discuss this session if it were not a Blue Note recording but only an obscure live set released on Fresh Sound, Storyville or any othe non-cult jazz label. I believe, if Cookers was only an obscure live session, we wouldn't discuss it because we wouldn't be aware of it. It is a Blue Note session, however. It is known, available, and perfomed by some of the best. Obscure or not, there are some big jazz names involved with this recording. To my ears, they are playing in a most excellent, live, raw format. Gives me the tingles. Claude couldn't be more right about this session. This one is a dog and not one with fleas either. Just because it's on BN doesn't make it good. They took a flier on it and it didn't work. They figured it would sell. Maybe it did but it's a bad bad session. Should have stayed in the vaults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) What I was trying to say is that this average session (despite the great names) would be passed over by most jazz fans if it weren´t a Blue Note album. I don't mean to argue with Claude. Music is a personal thing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is no right or wrong opinion. However, 'The Cookers' has created much discussion and debate for being only an average session. Edited July 15, 2004 by wesbed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 (edited) I think that we wouldn't even discuss this session if it were not a Blue Note recording but only an obscure live set released on Fresh Sound, Storyville or any othe non-cult jazz label. I believe, if Cookers was only an obscure live session, we wouldn't discuss it because we wouldn't be aware of it. It is a Blue Note session, however. It is known, available, and perfomed by some of the best. Obscure or not, there are some big jazz names involved with this recording. To my ears, they are playing in a most excellent, live, raw format. Gives me the tingles. Claude couldn't be more right about this session. This one is a dog and not one with fleas either. Just because it's on BN doesn't make it good. They took a flier on it and it didn't work. They figured it would sell. Maybe it did but it's a bad bad session. Should have stayed in the vaults. I have bought and sold this thing at least three times in the last 20+ years. RVG-treatment notwithstanding, I am through. There is way too much worthwhile music out there to listen to. Even Rudy can't polish this proverbial turd Edited July 15, 2004 by Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 What I was trying to say is that this average session (despite the great names) would be passed over by most jazz fans if it weren´t a Blue Note album. I don't mean to argue with Claude. Music is a personal thing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is no right or wrong opinion. However, The Cookers has created much discussion and debate for being only an average session. It is definitely the line-up ... one wishes for a hard-bop version of Abbey Road ... yet is left with: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 However, 'The Cookers' has created much discussion and debate for being only an average session. that happens a lot if some keep insisting that an average session is actually a great session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 However, 'The Cookers' has created much discussion and debate for being only an average session. that happens a lot if some keep insisting that an average session is actually a great session. Again, a matter of opinion. And, the same could be said for those who insist that a great session is only average. But, an opinon, especially in regard to art, is never wrong. What makes a session great or average depends solely on the interpretation of the listener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 QED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Even Rudy can't polish this proverbial turd no need to argue - I just disagree with those who think it's that bad. I would never say it's a great session. It's a live date, raw and authentic, and I do enjoy hearing what these cats sounded like when they did NOT have their best day, and did NOT have the studio pressure and atmosphere. It's just that for me, no more. ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I can acknowledge that this may not be a "great" session, but at the same time I can enjoy the hell out of it... Probably won't bother upgrading this one though. I'm not really sure why they're re-releasing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 God knows why they're releasing it but I was like Wesbed before I started this thread way back when. Since it has generated so much discussion, pick it up. Just be forewarned, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzdog Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Claude couldn't be more right about this session. This one is a dog and not one with fleas either. Just because it's on BN doesn't make it good. They took a flier on it and it didn't work. They figured it would sell. Maybe it did but it's a bad bad session. Should have stayed in the vaults. As John McLaughlin would say...and I quote... 'WRONG...Next Topic" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Met Big Black a few years back. He said more people have asked him about this session than any gig or record he ever made. Everyone asks him what it was like to be there. He said it was magic. There were many sub-plots to this session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent, Paris Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 How does it come that Mosaic or Blue Note hasn't come with more material from those jam sessions? They played La Marchal two nights, more than 4 tracks must have been recorded. Where are the out-takes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 (edited) Claude couldn't be more right about this session. This one is a dog and not one with fleas either. Just because it's on BN doesn't make it good. They took a flier on it and it didn't work. They figured it would sell. Maybe it did but it's a bad bad session. Should have stayed in the vaults. As John McLaughlin would say...and I quote... 'WRONG...Next Topic" Hold on doggy, just because it's my opinion doesn't make it wrong. And this is not a good session. Edited July 16, 2004 by Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 (edited) Don't ask me for proof, but it has been my understanding (for circa 30 years) this tape was delivered to BN to fulfill Freddie's obligations so he could sign with Atlantic. This being the case, Alfred probably issued it to recoup his investment. Edited July 16, 2004 by Chuck Nessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 This one is a big dog to me. I had it once and sold it. There is no real interest in trying it out again. Heck, we all have our personal tastes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 I had it once too, and sold it about four years ago. I'm curious to hear it again, but don't plan to buy the new RVG. A buddy of mine will have it, probably, I'll give his a spin some time, and see if I feel the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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