John Carisi

[jazztrain]

Does anyone know the story behind the title to Carisi's "Israel"? I was at the SF Contemporary Jewish Museum today and they included the tune as part ofthis exhibit, claiming that the tune was written to pay tribute to the new Jewish state. If the tune was written around 1948, obviously that would be timely....but I am dubious. As far as I know Carisi was not himself Jewish, and there are any number of Israels he could have been referring to.

There's some interesting information here where Carisi openly acknowledges the role of Wolpe with respect to the composition of Israel: Carisi about Wolpe

[mikeweil]

There's some interesting information here where Carisi openly acknowledges the role of Wolpe with respect to the composition of Israel: Carisi about Wolpe

Great - thanks a lot for posting this.

[Big Wheel]

Does anyone know the story behind the title to Carisi's "Israel"? I was at the SF Contemporary Jewish Museum today and they included the tune as part ofthis exhibit, claiming that the tune was written to pay tribute to the new Jewish state. If the tune was written around 1948, obviously that would be timely....but I am dubious. As far as I know Carisi was not himself Jewish, and there are any number of Israels he could have been referring to.

Seem quite logical to me -- why are you dubious?

For a few reasons:

-As Jim notes, not only does the tune not exactly sound like Hatikvah, it's not even really a minor blues as recorded by the nonet.

-I know that Carisi was not Bird, but in general the beboppers were not so obviously referential like this when it came to current events. It's not like there were many tunes written about Truman or Roosevelt or the partition of India. And on Birth of the Cool, especially, the reference just seems a little out of place among the tunes that were performed.

(To me it's potentially the same kind of error as assuming that "Moose the Mooche" was written as a reference to this famous drunk apple-stealing elk. Leaving aside the anachronism for a second, my point is that someone who knew nothing about Bird or bebop might think they were safe in guessing that world events had something to do with the title. But anyone who knows anything about Bird knows of course that his personal acquaintances figure in several of his titles.)

-The exhibit that this was a part of seemed to be stretching things for some of the tunes that were presented as examples of the melding of black American and Jewish culture. The Cab Calloway Yiddish jive tunes definitely fit the bill...but they also included stuff like Grant Green's version of Shadrack from Feelin' the Spirit. To me it's pretty obvious that Green's interpretation of Shadrack has only the most tenuous of connections to Judiasm. While of course the Exodus story and other parts of the Old Testament had long been used as the religious background for the Civil Rights movement, that doesn't mean that there was anything consciously Jewish about their adoption, especially on an album devoted to jazz treatments of the gospel tradition. (If "Shadrack" counts as Jewish, you pretty much have to say that a full 25% of gospel music is Jewish.) So I had reason to be skeptical about the appropriateness of other tunes included as part of the exhibit.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Big Wheel

[Larry Kart]

Does anyone know the story behind the title to Carisi's "Israel"? I was at the SF Contemporary Jewish Museum today and they included the tune as part ofthis exhibit, claiming that the tune was written to pay tribute to the new Jewish state. If the tune was written around 1948, obviously that would be timely....but I am dubious. As far as I know Carisi was not himself Jewish, and there are any number of Israels he could have been referring to.

Seem quite logical to me -- why are you dubious?

For a few reasons:

-As Jim notes, not only does the tune not exactly sound like Hatikvah, it's not even really a minor blues as recorded by the nonet.

-I know that Carisi was not Bird, but in general the beboppers were not so obviously referential like this when it came to current events. It's not like there were many tunes written about Truman or Roosevelt or the partition of India. And on Birth of the Cool, especially, the reference just seems a little out of place among the tunes that were performed.

-The exhibit that this was a part of seemed to be stretching things for some of the tunes that were presented as examples of the melding of black American and Jewish culture. The Cab Calloway Yiddish jive tunes definitely fit the bill...but they also included stuff like Grant Green's version of Shadrack from Feelin' the Spirit. To me it's pretty obvious that Green's interpretation of Shadrack has only the most tenuous of connections to Judiasm. While of course the Exodus story and other parts of the Old Testament had long been used as the religious background for the Civil Rights movement, that doesn't mean that there was anything consciously Jewish about their adoption, especially on an album devoted to jazz treatments of the gospel tradition. So I had reason to be skeptical about the appropriateness of other tunes included as part of the exhibit.

I'm not talking about the exhibit or Yiddish jive but the Middle Eastern music (Jewish and Palestinian) that Wolpe heard and responded to when he lived in Palestine and that might through him might have influenced Carisi. This music was not "Bei Meir Bist Du Schoen" or "And the Angels Sing." Track down Wolpe's stunning "Ten Songs From the Hebrew," and you'll have some idea. In lieu of that, if you have Spotify, check out Wolpe's Zemach Suite VII: Dance in the Form of a Chaconne, which has some of his Palestine-era vibe.

[Big Beat Steve]

Was Johnny Carisi somehow acquainted (privately or professionally) with Israel Crosby? Just a wild shot ...

[Larry Kart]

Also, though not directly relevant, here's my favorite Wolpe composition, his Chamber Piece No. 1 (from 1964), in a superb performance by Arthur Weisberg and the Contemporary Chamber Ensemble. It certainly has some kind of rhythmic power:

[JSngry]

When I say it's not a minor blues, it's really not. It starts off in minor, but the IV chord is major, and it resolves to a major at the end of the chorus, with some kind of teeter-tottering back and forth along the way.. I guess if you wanted to read some sort of current events/programmatic angle onto it, you could see it as an initial sadness turning into an eventual, if tentative hope/happiness/whatever. Some guys write like that, although I have no idea if Carisi was one of them.

Me, I've always been more impressed by the tune than moved by it. It's a busy son-of-a-gun, in some limbo between bebop and Tristano. And I don't thing that the nonet instrumentation (or the Bill Evans trio) were the ideal instrumentation to hit its essence "just right". Maybe an alto/guitar/bass/drums quartet, has anybody done it like that?

But the use of fourths in the closing melodic section is pretty damn forward looking in a jazz context, for sure.

[Big Wheel]

When I say it's not a minor blues, it's really not. It starts off in minor, but the IV chord is major

Not unlike "Solar".

(Which, incidentally, has me sure that Miles understood anthropogenic climate change and the need for alternative energy sources.)

[Larry Kart]

Some more remarkable/alarming Wolpe:

[Larry Kart]

When I say it's not a minor blues, it's really not. It starts off in minor, but the IV chord is major, and it resolves to a major at the end of the chorus, with some kind of teeter-tottering back and forth along the way.. I guess if you wanted to read some sort of current events/programmatic angle onto it, you could see it as an initial sadness turning into an eventual, if tentative hope/happiness/whatever. Some guys write like that, although I have no idea if Carisi was one of them.

Me, I've always been more impressed by the tune than moved by it. It's a busy son-of-a-gun, in some limbo between bebop and Tristano. And I don't thing that the nonet instrumentation (or the Bill Evans trio) were the ideal instrumentation to hit its essence "just right". Maybe an alto/guitar/bass/drums quartet, has anybody done it like that?

But the use of fourths in the closing melodic section is pretty damn forward looking in a jazz context, for sure.

You should try to find Carisi's own version of the piece from 1956, for a trumpet (Carisi himself, a very interesting player) trombone, alto, tenor, baritone, rhythm (with guitar) ensemble, recorded for RCA in 1956 and belatedly released in 1988 on the now o.o.p. "RCA Victor Jazz Workshop: The Arrangers." It has a different feel, and you can hear much more detail. If you find that album, also check out the original version of "Springsville," which is very diifferent from the Davis-Evans version, almost ballad-like.

[JSngry]

Hey, I've got that one. I forgot!

[king ubu]

When I say it's not a minor blues, it's really not. It starts off in minor, but the IV chord is major

Not unlike "Solar".

(Which, incidentally, has me sure that Miles understood anthropogenic climate change and the need for alternative energy sources.)

(which he stole from Chuck Wayne anyway, it seems - see here)

[flat5]

Some people play Solar with the first chord major.

My fakebook says the forth chord (bar 5) is minor in Israel.

Your mileage may vary.

[Big Wheel]

Some people play Solar with the first chord major.

Some people also buy mid-grade gas and put mayonnaise on a pastrami sandwich...but that don't make it right.

[JSngry]

And yeah, the iv chord is minor. Went back an relistened. My bad. It's the I chord after the iv chord that's major.

[flat5]

ok

Took me years to catch the major third in the melody of 'Stolen Moments' in bar eight of the 'A' section.

Just checked two fakebook sources and they are both wrong!

One has the lowered third and the other has a fifth instead of a third.

[thedwork]

Some people play Solar with the first chord major.

Some people also buy mid-grade gas and put mayonnaise on a pastrami sandwich...but that don't make it right.

back when i used to play more, i remember pretty regularly playing Cmin(Maj7) at the top. always liked that sound there...

[Late]

I first learned what a "minor-major" chord was (minor 3rd, major 7th) when Kenny Kirkland spelled one out on the title track of Sting's Dream of The Blue Turtles.

[Big Wheel]

Some people play Solar with the first chord major.

Some people also buy mid-grade gas and put mayonnaise on a pastrami sandwich...but that don't make it right.

back when i used to play more, i remember pretty regularly playing Cmin(Maj7) at the top. always liked that sound there...

Right. Any tonic minor is acceptable. I usually play it with the raised 7th, as well.

Playing it with a major third, though...at the very least is going to sound strange when coming back to the top after the head, because the last bar of the head outlines the D locrian scale which screams C minor. If you are going for this as a deliberate effect that's one thing, but if you are trying to sound like Miles in 1957...it's going to sound odd.

[AllenLowe]

you gotta know the secret changes - apparently John Lewis (according to Bob Neloms) used to tell people that everybody played the chord of the third and fourth measures of A Train incorrectly, and that only he knew Duke's secret.

And Barry Harris used to say that everybody played the wrong changes on 'Round Midnight.

[fasstrack]

I took one lesson w/him in '92-right before he slipped away. He did talk about Wolpe, no great stories. I won't bore you w/my lesson. One thing he did was write out intervals-like 6ths. 'OK, kid. Go bust your ass and do something w/THAT'. He showed me the gtr. pt. on Counterpoise #2. My man James Chirillo told me he sweated his part! John was a master of counterpoint, as is Bill Holman. The tunes didn't matter. He recycled-so did Haydn. Me, I'm a songwriter and my head's in a different place just now. But when you hang w/ a master like John and others it has to rub off. We won't see the likes of that generation again.

[JSngry]

Found this Carisi work quite accidentally (and on a  album that seems to have otherwise been a Mike Abene-directed record). It's in character, generally, with his work on the Marvin Stamm Verve album, which is to say that if you don't listen closely, you could be forgiven for thinking that nothing's going on but the rent.

 

[sgcim]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Found this Carisi work quite accidentally (and on a  album that seems to have otherwise been a Mike Abene-directed record). It's in character, generally, with his work on the Marvin Stamm Verve album, which is to say that if you don't listen closely, you could be forgiven for thinking that nothing's going on but the rent.

 

Thanks for mentioning the Marvin Stamm LP. I was featured at a jazz festival playing a transcription for guitar of a piece written by Carisi for Flugelhorn. I've been searching for that piece (it had a Latin title and bossa groove) for a LONG time; it's gotta be on that LP.

Anything by Carisi is fine with me, but I didn't like the legit stuff I heard on Chirillo's CD.

The only title that sounds Spanish is 'Soadades'. The title doesn't sound familiar, but I remember the beginning of the melody:

A Bb A Bb A Bb D F A Ab - I forget the rest. Bossa Nova. for big band. Somebody check it out, please! I'll be your best friend!

"Machinations" never came out on CD, 

Edited July 4, 2018 by sgcim

[Larry Kart]

I reviewed that  Collins-Shepley album for DB back in the day, liked it, and still have my copy. Terrific tuba player there, Tony Price. Rest of the band, in addition to Collins, Shepley, Price, and Abene, is pretty impressive too -- Bernie Glow, tpt., Garnett Brown (amusingly mis-labeled  "Garnett Grown"), trb., Paul Faulise, b. trb, Joe DeAngelis, Fr. Horn,  Jerry Dodgion, reeds, Bob Cranshaw, Mickey Roker.

[JSngry]

Title piece to Machinations:

https://www.discogs.com/Marvin-Stamm-Machinations/release/2736881

Hide Credits

A1	Machinations Composed By – John Carisi	5:50
A2	Soadades Composed By – John Carisi	3:08
A3	Wedding Dance Composed By – John Carisi	5:23
A4	Bleaker Street Composed By – John Carisi	3:22
B1	Eruza Composed By – John Carisi	5:09
B2	Flute Thing Composed By – Al Kooper	4:56
B3	Jes' Plain Bread Composed By – John Carisi	3:36
B4	The March Of The Siamese Children Composed By – Oscar Hammerstein II, Richard Rodgers	3:25
B5	Sunny

43 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

I reviewed that  Collins-Shepley album for DB back in the day, liked it, and still have my copy. Terrific tuba player there, Tony Price. Rest of the band, in addition to Collins, Shepley, Price, and Abene, is pretty impressive too -- Bernie Glow, tpt., Garnett Brown (amusingly mis-labeled  "Garnett Grown"), trb., Paul Faulise, b. trb, Joe DeAngelis, Fr. Horn,  Jerry Dodgion, reeds, Bob Cranshaw, Mickey Roker.

Ever heard the successor? https://www.discogs.com/CollinsShepley-Galaxy-Lennon-And-McCartney-Live/release/3547091

• Arranged By, Conductor – Mike Abene*
• Bass [Fender] – Bobby Cranshaw*
• Bass Trombone – Myron Yules (tracks: A3, B1, B3, B4), Paul Faulise (tracks: A1, A2, A4, B2)
• Design – The Forlenza Group*
• Drums – Mickey Roker
• Electric Piano [Fender Rhodes] – Herbie Hancock
• Engineer [Recording] – Frank Laico
• Engineer [Rerecording] – Paul Goodman
• French Horn – Joe DeAngelis*
• Producer – Bob Thompson
• Soprano Saxophone – Jerry Dodgion
• Trombone – Lloyd Michels (tracks: B1, B4)
• Trumpet, Piccolo Trumpet, Flugelhorn – Bernie Glow (tracks: A1-A4, B2, B3)
• Trumpet, Trumpet [Piccolo], Flugelhorn – Burt Collins, Garnett Brown, Joe Shepley
• Tuba – Tony Price*
• Written-By – J. Lennon - P. McCartney*

Notes

Myron Yules appears through the courtesy of Coral Rock Productions.
Herbie Hancock appears through the courtesy of Warner Bros. Records.