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SACD player?


mikeweil

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Why are you against having DVD capability? (Just curious, I have a universal player from Sony that has been modified by Decware to have a tubed output stage coming right off the DAC that I LOVE. It can play dvd and that is nice because sometimes I listen (don't watch) to dvds that I have from Tabla Beat Science, Mingus, Flip Phillips, etc.)

It may be more than you want to spend, but it's the best machine I've had.

DEC 685 pages

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Why are you against having DVD capability?

Basically, I'm not. My thought was that maybe there is a player focussing on these two formats giving better value at the same price as a more versatile player - and I can't see myself listening to DVDs on the stereo as I decided to move the TV and video into another room.

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I never thoutht I would be listening to dvds on the stereo either, but since I can I find I have been. . . . The new Mingus at Montreux is nice to have and be able to listen in the very best sound on my main system.

The Decware player took a long time to break in and shine, but I'm very happy to have it. . . .CDs sound as good as SACDs to me on this machine!

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Not sure about dirt cheap! Dirt cheap in comparison to highend machines, sure. And I think great bang for the buck.

It's the best machine I've ever had, but I haven't had megadollar machines. It does make cds sound wonderful though. The designer really knows his stuff, and he overbuilds power supplies which has great sonic benefits in the long run but does mean a long break in time. . . . Still, I'm very happy with this machine. I guess there's a chance that it is because it is a part of a system all built by this designer; system synergy is possibly a big factor.

In fact I view my system as a triple one: I have all Decware source, amps and speakers; I have all Mapleshade isolation components (Samson rack, Isoblocks and maple platforms and Triplepoint brass "Cones") and I have all PS Audio cables (power, interconnect and speaker) and a PS Audio Power Plant. It's really shining lately; I'm enjoying the heck out of music!

There are lots of other options I guess. . . .I just haven't heard that many SACD machines, and I really am sold on this builder after seven years of living with his products. One limiting factor is that SACD is not available in a DAC (yet?). If it were then there would be many transport and DAC combinations possible.

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My experience with affordable SACD players ($400 range) is that they don't sound good enough to show the advantage of high resolution digital over standard CD.

I used the Sony SCD-XB770 (Europe-only) and Philips DVD963SA players (which I use for DVDs). I now have the Sony SCD-XA777, which sounds better with the CD layer of hybrid SACDs than the two previous ones with the SACD layer of the same disc.

So the main advantage of cheap SACD players over CD-only players is multichannel, which is irrelevant for jazz fans as 99% of the repertoire is stereo or mono.

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My experience with affordable SACD players ($400 range) is that they don't sound good enough to show the advantage of high resolution digital over standard CD.

We'll have to disagree on this one Claude... my Pioneer DV-45A definitely sounds better with the high rez layer than the RBCD layer on my SACD hybrid discs. The only "problem" I see is that this Pioneer is a fantastic RBCD player; the best I've ever owned. It's so good at regular CD playback that I'd recommend it just for that. That may make some people think it's not a better SACD player but not me. Not only that, it plays back DVD-Audio discs as well. Some of my DVD-Audio discs sound great too. As another bonus, some artists like Neil Young have started issuing discs that utilize standard DVD audio and the results can be stunning. Neil's latest "Greatest Hits" package is really good on the DVD video disc.

I would recommend my Pioneer player highly. It goes for less than $400 right now and it's well worth it. Best transport in the industry.

I have to say, from what I've read, caveat emptor on Sony units. There are many very upset buyers who feel that they paid big bucks for a lemon. It's a long-running argument over on the High Rez Highway (Audio Asylum's High Rez Highway) about this.

Whatever you do, do not buy a Philips unit! They are almost guaranteed to die an early death and Philips closed down all their factory service centers in the US.

BTW, as much as Lon likes his Decware, it is very expensive. Personally, I don't think it's worth it, although if money were no object, I'm sure I'd consider it. I just think that an un-modded Pioneer will sound perfectly fine for you.

Later,

Kevin

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So the main advantage of cheap SACD players over CD-only players is multichannel, which is irrelevant for jazz fans as 99% of the repertoire is stereo or mono.

That exactly is the reason I hoped there is a player focussing on just that - but considering that jazz fans are a minority, manufacturers probably won't go for that. No average buyer will get machine without multi-channel features.

That Pioneer might be something to check out for me - I currently use a Pioneer stable platter CD player that I like very, very much .....

Thanks a lot for the input, folks! :tup

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And I personally think that most of the players suffer from having output stages that just don't cut it for me. My amps and speakers reveal their failings. After hearing better implemented power supplies and tubed output stages everything seems more musical to me and I'll not buy a stock machine from Pioneer or Sony unless it's their flagships that are ridiculously expensive or to have it modified by someone who really knows what they are doing. If I hadn't heard a few great machines that have fantastic output sections (where the machine in my opinion is made or broken) I would feel diffferently.

Of course I've also over the last decade moved fully into the tubed camp rather than solid state; for me there is no going back, and if there's a machine with a tube as a source compared to an IC or transistors I'm going to gravitate there. This machine, with its design that allows one to use either a 12AT7, 12AU7 or 12AX7 tube type really allows you to tailor the sound wonderfully to your room and tastes. I go back and forth between a Telefunken 12AT7 and a Mullard 12AX7 and am so glad I can.

Edited by jazzbo
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There's room for all of us on this, Lon. I bet your player sounds fantastic. I just think that my un-modded unit sounds pretty darn good too. I suppose I could send it off to one of the modders out there (there is one who seems willing to convert it to a tube output stage) but most of these modders charge around $600 to mod my already expensive player. If I didn't already like the sound I have, I'd jump all over it but right now, I just can't see the cost benefit.

I looked long and hard at Decware last year when I was in the market for a new reciever but the cost for a multi-channel set-up was just too much. Unfortunately, I'm also not a big fan of the terminology they use to sell speaker wire. I have not been convinced that wires affect music as much as they claim. If they'd just stuck to audio terms, I'd be less critical but I personally could not buy a wire from someone who uses the term "Midrange Liquidity" to rate their speaker wires. :)

BTW, I work at Analog Devices and once a year, we get offered incredible deals on Denon gear. I came sooooo close to selling my Pioneer DV-45A and buying a Denon 2900 or 3910 but after reading 1,000's of posts on the AVS forum, I decided that the slight improvement in video might have actually resulted in a degradation in my audio. Audio is of prime importance to me and most Pioneer buyers report that their units sound better than Denon in head-to-head competition. There's also quite a few reoprts of dying Denon 3910s (as it's their first DVD player made in a Chinese factory?). I'm sticking with my Pioneer for at least another year.

Later,

Kevin

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Well, I don't mean to give the impression that I was not leaving room for anyone else. I'm just recommending from my experience as you are recommending from yours. I personally DO hear differences in wire, and in isolation components and stands, and power conditioning components and the lack of thereof as well. This happened along my tube journey. It's a bit maddening, but it is also thrilling; I'm glad to have this experience and the quest. But I fully believe that anyone should find their own journey in audio.

If I were into multichannel I would probably also not go the Decware route, but multichannel just doesn't do it for me. I've never heard a setup that didn't sound processed to me outside of rare rare occurrences in a movie theater. I get an enveloping two channel set up with my speakers that has outshined home theaters I've heard so I'm only shooting for two channels. . . . I'm not one to watch many movies at home, so I don't have the need for more than two channels.

Edited by jazzbo
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On some of the latest rock & roll multi-channel SACDs, the multi-channel audio is better than the stereo audio. Elton John's stuff certainly fits this description. Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" has a very nice-sounding multi-channel mix.

The only thing to know about multi-channel audio is that you need good surround speakers, not the usual rinky-dink "surround" speakers. I put B&W 600 S3's back there. A little thin on bass but smooth. My only problem with them is that I had to mount them pretty far up the wall to avoid heads boinking into them. I am thinking about lowering them to improve the soundstage, head boinking be damned! :)

Later,

Kevin

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Sorry I'm glad you like it but I don't think it would change my mind in any way. I'm just not a surround sound fan. And if I NEVER heard Dark Side of the Moon again in my life I'd be happy! ;) Heard way too many times in the seventies and eighties . . . .

Don't listen to Elton John either.

Haven't even been curious to hear KOB in multichannel. Just doesn't interest me. I've heard some pretty impressive systems but still sounds gimmicky to ME. It's just me. I'm too much a purist for my own good.

Edited by jazzbo
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I must say that I used to think my stock Pioneer DV45A sounded fantastic - good for CDs, great for SACD - until I got rid of my workmanlike Denon home theater receiver as primary listening amp and got a really good tube amp and tube DAC/CD transport set up.

Now the Pioneer sits gathering dust.

My point is not to dis' the Pioneer, a really good buy for the money. My only point in this is to emphasize how important it is to consider your current and possible future listening set up AS A WHOLE when deciding a) whether to even bother with SACD (I no longer do), and b) which player to go for.

My hunch is that if I bought a really high-end SACD player to match the quality level of my current system, with a really quality output stage, it would probably give a SLIGHT margin of improvement over redbook CD played through my Audio Note tube DAC, but SLIGHT is the key word.

I'm not even convinced of that, honestly, and probably I could attain similar improvements by beefing up my amp a bit (going from an integrated to monoblocks, which I will do over time). That seems more reasonable to me as a future major tweak - I definitely don't feel like replacing my several 1000 standard CDs at this point, even assuming that most of the titles ever see SACD release (which most probably will not), and even though monoblocks can be pricey in the long run replacing 1000s of CDs with SACDs is MORE expensive.

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The search for audio nirvana among us audophiles will likely never end until they close the casket cover.

SACD is a very inexpensive way to get someone just starting out into audiophilia at a very high-end starting point. If someone moves from a cheapo HT receiver to a super-expensive tubed amp, they will likely perceive a lot less benefit than by simply hooking up an SACD player. If this SACD also improves their RBCD, like my Pioneer DV-45A did, than it's a double upgrade.

FWIW, I switched from Denon to Rotel and I hear very little difference, even though Rotel is considered more "tube-like". I may have passed by my ability to reach audio nirvana. My ears are still aging and as this process continues (with the help of that Foghat concert in 1975), my hearing will continue to degrade.

But I'm still enjoying the heck out of my SACDs.

Back to Mike's reasons for this thread... Mike, why not try a cheapo machine to see if you hear anything? Go to your local Best Buy and buy a Pioneer 563A. Should run you around $125. If you like the sound but want to step up, join the crowd. You'll be running alongside me and DrJ and Lon. :)

Later,

Kevin

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"Tube like" . . . . Audio descriptions are about as sensible in my opinion as wine-tasting language is. Both attempt to have a set group of words that mean something to everyone (in audio "tube-like," "liquidity," etc.) and both don't reach that goal by any means. (In my opinion; wine-tasting language just sounds like a bunch of subjective puffery to me, and I'm sure the audio does to others; in my opinion the audio doesn't serve its purpose because there is such a realm of difference between say a Marantz 8B tube amp, a Fisher tube receiver, a Cary 300B integrated and a Decware Select that the word can't mean anything!)

I've heard two Rotel amps and neither sounded "tube-like" to me either. I really don't put much faith in customer reviews of audio products unless I happen to know something of the listeners tastes and experience with other audio products I may have some familiarity with. . . .

After all the brouhaha that Greg stirred up internet wide about SACD I was expecting SACDs to sound better than they do. . . . They do sound very nice, but there's a reason they're a niche product. I would recommend purchasing a machine that gave what one personally considered excellent CD playback; a music lover is bound to have a lot more cds to listen to.

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Yeah, "tube like," great term...first off, if they're honestly going for that sound, then why even bother with solid state in the first place? That kind of defeats any of the theoretical advantages of solid state...and I am very up front about the fact that until you get into pretty high-end monblock tube set ups, the very low bass response (floor rumbling stuff in house and other types of music) of smaller integrated tube systems is never going to touch that of solid state. But the point is, for acoustic jazz, I find this matters not one bit, totally irrelevant.

Second...what Lon said.

My advice, broken-record like as I have tried to say this in every audio-based post I've made, is find your own comfort level with how obsessive you do or don't want to be about all this and feel good about it - and then LISTEN to all the stuff in your particular price/obsession category and base buying decisions on that, not on reviews.

Edited by DrJ
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Guys, I am not fond of "tube-like" either. In fact, I avoid using the term. In the case of my Rotel, these words are not mine, but rather the words of the many Internet posters that discuss these things. I spent a long time reviewing the on-line write-ups before dropping the $$ on this and the words most used by users of Rotel was "tube-like".

I just happen to think this receiver sounds very good. To heck with "tube-like". :D

BTW, you guys must go nuts when people use the terminolgy like" SACD is the closest you can come to vinyl sound". :)

Later,

Kevin

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Back to Mike's reasons for this thread... Mike, why not try a cheapo machine to see if you hear anything? Go to your local Best Buy and buy a Pioneer 563A. Should run you around $125. If you like the sound but want to step up, join the crowd. You'll be running alongside me and DrJ and Lon. :)

I think I will try something like this next year as soon as funds allow.

Of course I'd like to join the tube league, and have a great dealer in a nearby town, but .....

Edited by mikeweil
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