Rooster_Ties Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 (edited) "Law years" (from "Q&A") is a Coleman classic. Metheny follows the concepts of Ornette's groups in the end of the fifties. One of the best covers I've yet heard of this Ornette tune (or any Ornette tune, for that matter). Edited December 17, 2004 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alon Marcus Posted December 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 "Law years" (from "Q&A") is a Coleman classic. Metheny follows the concepts of Ornette's groups in the end of the fifties. One of the best covers I've yet heard of this Ornette tune (or any Ornette tune, for that matter). It's a bit off topic but if you like this tune you should also listen to Geri Allen's version with Charlie Haden and Paul Motian on her album "Segments". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 He'll wind up being an important person in the world of guitar playing. I enjoy his playing when he just plays guitar, hate the synth stuff. He's from Lee's Summit, Missouri, an eastern suburb of Kansas City, and a tad younger than me. I got to "jam" with him on several occasions when he (and I) was young, and remember resenting "that snot nosed kid" being able to play circles around me. But now I'm older, and he can play even bigger circles around me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 How come no talk of "80/81" or "As Falls Wichita"? great albums. If it wasn't for Witchita, I probably wouldn't be here. That's the LP that started me down this road all those years ago. It's one of my all time favorite albums, but obviously, my opinion is colored by a lot of emotional attachment, fond memories and gratitude. I'm glad to hear someone else refer to it as great, CJ...I agree completely, but I'm so biased on this one it hurts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I came to enjoy Metheny on 'Watercolours' in the late 70s. One of his breezy, dreamy discs but that's how I like him best. There's something bright and uncluttered about that disc that constantly brings me back. My overall favourite - a tremendous disc in every respect - is '80/81' mentioned above. I must admit to being disappointment from the early 80s onwards. Every new disc was talked up as some great breakthrough but I've generally been unaffected by them. The trio discs of a few years back I did enjoy. I prefer him playing with other people - there's a nice Dave Liebman disc called 'Water' with some marvellous Metheny. Not to forget the two Gary Burton ECMs he's on. Very enjoyable discs. I just wish he'd leave the effects at home - always makes his guitar mutate into a buzzy mouth organ to my ears. I like that bright, clean sound on his earlier discs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Bev, I respect your opinions, but if you limit yourself to the guitar choices of Pat's, you are missing a whole bunch of great music, the guitars are merely additional colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 I think Metheny has done as excellent job of balencing art and commerce. I personally dig most of the side project stuff: 80/81, Q & A, Song X, various sideman appearances (not No Tolerance for Silence). The more predictable and high-gloss PMG stuff is there for those who dig that. Not always crazy 'bout his tone/effects, but I could say the same about sco' and Frisell. Has anyone heard the boot(s) with sonny Rollins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 The "buzzy mouth organ" is the Synclavier harmonica sample. I don't see anything particularly wrong with Bev not liking that and wanting to hear a GUITAR sound from a guitarist. I don't have a problem with the guitar synthesizer and Synclavier stuff, but I can understand someone not liking it. There's a pretty radical difference between a *guitar* (whether acoustic steel string, nylon string, electric 12-string, hollowbody, solidbody, Pikasso 638-string, etc., along with all the various alternative tunings that Metheny has used, along with all the various chorus, delay, multiple amplifiers, etc. that he's used) and the *triggering* of synthesizers by a guitar-shaped object. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloriousBlues Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 I'm a big Metheny fan. My favorite disc of his might be the self-titled Pat Metheny Group. It was before he got into the Braziallian vocal thing, and focuses more on his guitar playing than other PMG recordings. One of Lyle Mays' hottest solos on record is here, on the track Lone Jack. Other Metheny reoordings that I love are Letter From Home (I could listen to the title track and 45/8 over and over without ever tiring of them), Speaking Of Now, and Trio 99. I still don't own 80/81, mostly because I'm too cheap to buy a 2CD ECM recording that's never on sale. It's on my Christmas list for at least the 5th yea in a row. If Santa doesn't come through, I may finally break down and buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 (edited) Well, count me a fan. All the criticisms that he's weathered throughout the years (about having a marshmallow soft center to some of his PMG work, for example) are hard to refute, so I won't do that. I'll simply say that for me his many attributes far outweigh the downsides to his artistry. As a guitarist - hugely influential for my generation and beyond at least...while obviously (as I dig back through jazz guitar history) influenced by others and firmly "in the tradition." But ultimately, he really has his own sound - or rather, at least 2 or 3 of his own sounds, which is no mean feat at this late date in the development of jazz guitar. Personally I love the Synclavier sound, like a trumpet played through a fuzz pedal, really unique and penetrating and arresting. True that a little goes a long way, but nice. I do find myself listening less and less to PMG stuff over time (although when the rare mood hits me sometimes I'll listen to nothing else for a couple days solid, partly nostalgia for my college days) and more to the "straighter" jazz recordings...TRIO LIVE, QUESTION AND ANSWER, SONG X, and the co-led (w/ John Scofield) I CAN SEE YOUR HOUSE FROM HERE in particular remain favorites. For PMG, for some reason STILL LIFE (TALKING) and MESSAGE FROM HOME remain my favorites - and yes, the soft-center is on display at times but what they're doing is generally so moving and beautiful I could care less. Edited December 20, 2004 by DrJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed S Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 (edited) Tony nailed it. For me, the music of the PMG can be the most beautiful and uplifting I've heard. I could not care less how it stands up to the scrutiny of hard core jazz afficionados. It's gorgeous, well crafted and executed music played by great musicians. I have to be in the mood for it - much like anything else. Brings back lots of great memories as well. I'm a big Metheny fan - all time periods, labels ,settings. I think the only Metheny records that I don't have are the Passagio whatever disc and the set with Derek Bailey. I saw Pat last year in the trio setting - what a show. I'm looking forward to his next PMG release as well as those promised remasters. Edited December 20, 2004 by Ed Swinnich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Bev, I respect your opinions, but if you limit yourself to the guitar choices of Pat's, you are missing a whole bunch of great music, the guitars are merely additional colors. Oh, I accept totally that the loss is all mine. I have a general block when it comes to synths. Something jars. A perfectly legitimate option and one I can see must bring pleasure to lots of other listeners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 How come no talk of "80/81" or "As Falls Wichita"? great albums. If it wasn't for Witchita, I probably wouldn't be here. That's the LP that started me down this road all those years ago. It's one of my all time favorite albums, but obviously, my opinion is colored by a lot of emotional attachment, fond memories and gratitude. Ditto. While "Wichita" may not be a great album by some standards, it's a very important one to me for personal reasons. It's still a favorite of mine after over 20 years. 80/81 is another fav, though I don't listen to it as often since I don't have it on CD, only LP. Metheny's recorded a couple of my favorite albums of the last decade, among them "Beyond the Missouri Sky." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 For me PAT METHENY GROUP and OFFRAMP were two of the recordings that started my inexorable movement toward jazz listening...I wore both of those out on vinyl in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Somehow Metheny never really got me. I have kept only the disc with Holland and Haynes, have it spinning as I write this, but although I can appreciate his competence, his playing leaves me a bit cold. But I can see that it is very interesting from a guitar player's view. I was anxious to hear the trio with Grenadier and Stewart, but I find the latter plays much more daringly with Goldings or others. I wish his tone would be a little more personal, like Peter Bernstein's or Jim hall's. Just me, of course - I'm not that much of a guitar freak, in spite of the fact that I often wound up playing with them, and some very good ones, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 I wish his tone would be a little more personal, like Peter Bernstein's or Jim hall's. Metheny's tone is instantly recognizable. I don't know how much more personal you can get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 That was my thought, too. Also, it's not about being a guitar freak, otherwise I'd just listen to Allan Holdsworth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Also, it's not about being a guitar freak, otherwise I'd just listen to Allan Holdsworth. Let me revise that; forget Allan. To me, saying you're not into Metheny because you're not a guitar freak is sort of like saying you're not into Wayne Shorter because you're not a sax freak, or not into Herbie because you're not a piano freak. The instrument is secondary to the actual music being made. There are people who are very focused on just what the instrument can do, to the detriment of the compositions or arrangements, but I don't think Pat is one of them. As the other Pat (Martino) likes to say, "Music is food, the guitar is just a fork." But then, I'm a guitarist, so maybe I'm just being defensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 As a matter of fact, I'm sure I'm just being defensive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Get off your high horse, Joe. Seesh. -_- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 I wish his tone would be a little more personal, like Peter Bernstein's or Jim hall's. Metheny's tone is instantly recognizable. I don't know how much more personal you can get. That being true, I think what Mike means is more in a personal way, less synthetic, less, well, kitschy... (now jump on me, ye defensive, offended, and offensive guitarists!) Not a big fan, myself, though I do like "Q&A". In the same boat as Rooster with regard to the other trio discs: I guess I'd like them, but I never came around picking them up. Oh, and back in the days we all still had tapes, I had "80/81" on a tape... though mainly I was interested in Dewey. Also, recently recorded a concert of Metheny's from Austrian radio - some mighty fine (no-nonsense, no-kitsch) playing, indeed! ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 That being true, I think what Mike means is more in a personal way, less synthetic, less, well, kitschy... (now jump on me, ye defensive, offended, and offensive guitarists!) Typical saxaphonist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 That being true, I think what Mike means is more in a personal way, less synthetic, less, well, kitschy... (now jump on me, ye defensive, offended, and offensive guitarists!) Typical saxaphonist! You know, my hero has always been Mr. Gorelick, as he's got such a nice natchural sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Not to knock anyone's opinion - but this whole "kitsch" thing is at the heart of the debate around Metheny as far as I'm concerned. I'd never in a million years call him "kitschy." Hell, his heart is about as far out on his sleeve as it could possibly be without being detached from his body! To me "kitsch" would imply a lot more detachment and a wink wink/nudge nudge sort of mentality. Not saying anyone has to like Metheny's sound, but "kitsch" isn't the right word for anyone who plays music with this degree of passion (and in his own way he's about as passionate as any musician I can think of) and commitment (and I speak from experience, as I've used the term sort of loosely myself on some threads in the past and have been duly called on it - which I actually appreciated). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted December 21, 2004 Report Share Posted December 21, 2004 Anyone who released Song X and loves Ornette as much as Pat can't be considered "kitschy" in my book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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