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Blue Note signs WM


sonnyhill

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Here's the half-serious part: Sony took a bath on Wynton, a bath I honestly think Blue Note can ill-afford.

The only interest I have in Blue Note is their back catalog, and I fear that the money they will lose on Wynton will keep them from putting out the already meager number of reissues they do come up with.

Bertrand.

But on what basis do you believe this, Bertrand?

Kevin has already told you that BN didn't break the bank to sign WM.

With the resources BN has vs the kind of contract Sony was willing to give him, plus the benefit of hindsight, what makes you think that BN committed so much to WM that they will inevitably take a bath on it? For all we know this might be a single album with an option for more based on sales. Either way, in the current circumstances for jazz, I don't see how BN would sign Marsalis to a contract that will in any way severely impact the company if its not a success.

I think your fears are utterly unfounded.

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I think--given Wynton's less-than-spectacular musical history--that this, from an artistic point of view, is an ill-advised decision. I also think--again, given Wynton's miserable sales record at Columbia--that Bruce has made a disastrous business decision. During the past twenty years, Wynton has had more opportunities to demonstrate his worth as a performer and composer than most artists get in a lifetime--well, he has churned out CD after CD (you'll find them in your local "used" bins), composition after laborious composition, but not a single one has a fraction of the artistic merit found in any number of works by a long list of lesser-known artists.

Bruce will have to perform a miracle with this guy, I'm afraid. Indeed, this is the label of Norah Jones, and it would seem that the dilution of Lion and Wolf's wonderful brew continues.

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Face it: the "Blue Note" label we all talk about is D E A D. It died back in 1968 when Francis Wolff left. It isn't going to be and hasn't been the same since.

I don't quite agree with this statement.

I like a lot of the Rare Groove stuff which came out later.

I do think that jazz itself went downhill after 1968 in general terms and not just BN. Jazz has since picked back up but post- 1968 were dark years as Rock and Roll dominated the air waves.

I also agree that BN is far from being an important label for new artists these days. Like many others, I am mainly interested in their reissues.

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No wonder 'hardbop' from the old BNBB (and he's on AAJ now) and Wynton are like two peas in a pod. (And for the record, I like 'hardbop', though he and I certainly disagree, musically speaking, on quite a number of things.)

WM Interview

TP: I'd like to take up your previous comments on the misunderstanding about the ritualistic aspect of Jazz amongst many observers of the music. Do the words "classic" or "classicism" have a different meaning when applied to the Jazz aesthetic as opposed to, say, European Music?

WM: Well, you know, I never really know what they're talking about. Some people say "Classic Jazz," and they mean the 1930's. Some say New Orleans music. Some call Coltrane's group the classic quartet.

TP: What do you mean by it, though?

WM: Well, personally, a term like "Classic Jazz" really has never meant anything to me. You know, that's the title that was used for the Lincoln Center series that we do in the summertime. Jazz in Lincoln Center is what I believe in.

My feeling is to call it "Real Jazz." Because Real Jazz means that you are trying to swing. And when I say "swing," that means that you are dealing with the rhythmic environment that allows for the thematic development, consistent thematic development, in the context of a Jazz groove. Which means that you don't have to be going TING-TINKADING-TINKADING-TINKADING... A Jazz musician will take this same groove, DOOMP-DUM-DUM, DOOMP-DUM-DUM... That will be repeated, but all of the instruments will be improvising and the soloists will be constructing solos that develop thematically.

So it's a matter of development, whenever you want to distinguish whether something is Jazz or not, and the range that is played on the groove. A Jazz drummer like Elvin Jones will take a groove like that, and he'll play many different things on it. Whereas people who are not playing in the style of Jazz might take that same groove, and they will still be improvising, but what they will be playing will be more proscribed. They can improvise, too, but it will be off of the clav? or off of a certain thing that's set, whereas a Jazz drummer also includes that into his vocabulary. Which is not to say that Jazz is more sophisticated. It's just different. Because the other way is very, very sophisticated.

But when the horn players play and the soloists play, we deal with interaction. The key to Jazz music is the interaction of the voices. And the way you can tell whether a piece of Jazz is being played is if it's being rendered with some Blues feeling, Blues melodies, rhythms and harmonies, in the context of some type of form. That means that you're always addressing syncopation, some rhythms are being set up and they're being resolved. If it has the Blues in it and also if it's swinging, then it has that sound that we identify with Jazz.

It also becomes then a matter of percentage. For instance, if I would take a gallon of water and squeeze one lemon in it, technically you could say it's lemonade. But it's not. It would be like some water with some lemon in it. And we're always concerned with the range and the precision and the degree of control of the idiomatic nuances. That really determines whether something is Jazz or not.

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Face it: the "Blue Note" label we all talk about is D E A D. It died back in 1968 when Francis Wolff left. It isn't going to be and hasn't been the same since.

Don't forget that there have been many fine non-mainstream albums on Blue Note during the 80's and 90's. Unfortunately most of them are OOP today.

James Newton, George Russell, Joe Lovano, Don Pullen, Jason Moran, Greg Osby, George Adams, Kevin Hays, and many more ...

They cannot be qualified as Smooth Jazz, Hip Hop, Trance, Lounge and Grammy-Award-winning-Pop.

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Rooster, maybe it's me, but I don't see any "smoking gun" in this snippet that seems relevent to this discussion.

Wynton feels Jazz has to "swing". That is not an uncommon belief among a lot of Jazz fans. Supposedly, one of Alfred Lion's favorite exclamations during recording sessions was, "It must sving! Sving!" There is a Hank Mobley quote somewhere talking about it. Alfred Lion liked his Jazz to sving & sving it usually did. More than anything, this little piece if chat with Wynton further cements that Blue Note did the right thing, if they want to sign artists in the "Alfred Lion mold".

BTW, I have not verified it, but I got the feeling from what little info I got that Wynton's deal is in fact a "one-off" with options. It sounds like they're gonna have Wynton cut a record and see if it sells. If it does, they'll probably cut another. I don't see how the heck Blue Note could be financially "killed" with this deal. Heck, they have all that "Norah money". :D

Later,

Kevin

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Face it: the "Blue Note" label we all talk about is D E A D. It died back in 1968 when Francis Wolff left. It isn't going to be and hasn't been the same since.

Don't forget that there have been many fine non-mainstream albums on Blue Note during the 80's and 90's. Unfortunately most of them are OOP today.

James Newton, George Russell, Joe Lovano, Don Pullen, Jason Moran, Greg Osby, George Adams, Kevin Hays, and many more ...

They cannot be qualified as Smooth Jazz, Hip Hop, Trance, Lounge and Grammy-Award-winning-Pop.

Guys, please don't take my comment wrong. I am not saying that what Blue Note has made since 1968 is bad! No, no! Far from it. All I am saying is that this is not Alfred Lion's Blue Note. This is a different animal. Several people have mentioned "classic" Blue Note titles and I am just saying that Blue Note today and "classic" Blue Note are not apples & apples. More like apples and oranges.

FWIW, some of my favorite Blue Notes from the "modern era" are those Adams/Pullen dates.

Later,

Kevin

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Until we know the terms of the deal that Marsalis signed, we won't know if Blue Note stands to take a bath or not. But I agree with Kevin that in many ways, Marsalis is a perfect fit for the label as it is currently operating.

I do take exception to some of the statements made above regarding the merits of modern day Blue Note. True they're not pushing the boundaries as Hill, Rivers, Taylor and Coleman did in the 60s. There are smaller labels doing that today. I enjoy music that excites, invigorates and challenges - pushes the boundaries, so to speak. But jazz, to me isn't just or always about pushing the boundaries. That's why I also enjoy modern mainstream jazz. In that realm, I think Blue Note has a very strong presence in the form of artists like Osby, Moran, Harris, Lovano, Blanchard and now Marsalis. Bill Charlap and Jacky Terrasson, IMO are two very good, if safe, pianists.

I dig the hell out of Eric Truffaz and he's one artist on their roster that is playing stuff that's definitely not in the mainstream realm. I've also enjoyed albums that I've picked up by Jane Bunnet, Rodney Jones, Ronny Jordan, MMW and though he's recently departed the label - Charlie Hunter.

I know where to find more adventurous music. I also know that at Blue Note, I can find some excellent mainstream players. The Blue Note of today is far different than the Lion/Wolf days. They're a mainstream jazz label, heavy on vocalists with some stuff that's trying to capitalize on the fusion of jazz with more popular forms like hip-hop etc. I don't think that makes them bad or irrelevant in today's jazz scene.

Another point that Kevin made is a valid one as well. That being the lack ouf outcry over the Blue Note logo being placed on releases by the likes of Richard Elliot, Greg Adams, Everette Harp. These smooth jazz releases are about as blatantly commercial in their intent as can be. Yet there's nary a word about the impact on the future of the label or on the integrity of the label. Yet the label hires probably the most well known name in jazz today and we're ready to write the label off - both artistically and financially.

I'm going to wait and see. And yes, I will buy the first Blue Note release of Marsalis. While I wait, I also hope that the folks at Blue Note did the right thing financially on structuring the Marsalis deal.

Edited by Ed Swinnich
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With a few exceptions (Kevin, Lon), you guys are hilarious. :wacko:

I wouldn't worry about BN breaking the bank on Wynton. They're a successful record company; they know what they are doing. I'm sure they're well aware of the "bath" that Sony took on Marsallis (if they even did) and won't pay him "too much" money for a record. Get real!

Also, who the hell said that Wynton was gonna be their new Artistic Director? Why worry about what he might do to the label if that ever comes about? Pure speculation bullshit! Besides, I can't imagine he could do any worse than whoever was the Artistic Director back in the mid-70s - Wynton wouldn't be hiring no Mizells, that's for sure.

And why would getting "dumped by a label" (especially a jazz label) classify someone as a "joke" anyway? Artists change labels all the time, for a variety of reasons, both willingly and unwillingly. Was Miles a "joke" when he went from Columbia to Warners? All artists have their ups and downs. Put this same Marsallis discussion in the context of the late 1960s - how many jazz artists were losing their deals at that time only to have to "compromise" by playing in more commercial styles. Were they all "jokes" as well?

It's really amazing to see how many of you are so blinded by a) your rabid love of Blue Note and b ) your obvious hatred for Wynton Marsallis. You don't even want to believe that such a marriage just might work out to the benefit of both parties.

I'm no great fan of Marsallis' work, but I'm real curious to hear what his new BN album sounds like. I'm optimistically hoping for the best...

Ray

Edited by RDK
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Re.The W.M. deal ,could that be the reason they haven't reactivated the boards yet? Plenty of scope for closing them down again if they had...

No, I was talking to someone at BN this morning about the board. It's supposed to be re-opening in June, remember? I have my doubts. Anyway, it still sounds like it's work-in-progress.

Back to "current Blue Note"... has anyone gone over there are played some of their sound samples? They have full sample tracks on some albums. Go play Paul Jackson Jr.'s "Still Small Voice" and then come back to this thread and tell me again what's so "wrong" with Wynton Marsalis signing with Blue Note! :D

Blue Note's smooth Jazz discs really warp the hell out of the Blue Note "image". I remember on the BN board when Chris Albertson said that "Alfred Lion was spinning in his grave" over Wynton's signing with Blue Note. Lion must be spinning out of control with this shit being put out as "Blue Note - The Finest In Jazz Since 1939". This stuff is an atrocity. It does not belong on the Blue Note label, period.

Later,

Kevin

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Wait a second. Where the hell did this artistic director talk come from?!!! I think Bruce Lundvall is very happy with his position right now and with the people working for him in A&R, they're doing well financially, and why in the hell would Blue Note suddenly drop MMW to sign Marcus Roberts? Wynton has sales potential, but not the way it was being done at Sony. Talk about flooding the market! That, and given a Blue Note approach, I think his Blue Note debut could be pretty good, if not excellent. Have any of you heard Ted Nash's new cd w/ Wynton? Oh my! Now that's what we should hope to hear, and on Blue Note, it just might happen. And Kevin is right, Blue Note today is not the label of Lion and Wolff, so the talk of profaning the legacy is a bunch of BS.

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Guest Mnytime

Well one thing is for sure. With the signing of WM to Blue Note it means the end of any negative comments of any kind on any future BBS Blue Note puts up. If they thought the Norah Jones threads where bade they haven't seen anything. It also means our friends Chris and Hardbop will have to limit their WM argument to the 2-3 other boards they post on and not on Blue Notes future BBS. If there ever is one.

Kevin

I didn't think Blue Note would be stupid enough to pay Sony type money to someone who is a washout from another label. I just find the announcement to be funny with it's praise of WM. No other label would come near him with a 50ft pole to sign him but they are still going with the usual "Savior of Jazz"

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Back to "current Blue Note"... has anyone gone over there are played some of their sound samples? They have full sample tracks on some albums. Go play Paul Jackson Jr.'s "Still Small Voice" and then come back to this thread and tell me again what's so "wrong" with Wynton Marsalis signing with Blue Note! :D

I just listened to a couple of those "Paul Jackson Jr." tracks, Kevin, and they are clearly worthless, something I think that we can all agree on.

But then again, I don't think any of us pay any attention to the smooth crap on BN. I'm hardly even aware of it at all - since these guys never hit my radar in the first place. (I think it's only years later, when I stumble on BN titles used in the bins, that I'm even ever aware of any of them.)

I think what people are reacting to is the notion of "what if" Wynton suddenly became the arbiter of what would be on the label. Now I know that there's no chance of that happening, and at worst - he might bring along some of his neo-conservative buddies to do a few Blue Note albums (which I also don't think is all that likely, by the way). And in the end, so what? Probably no real repercussions of any significance.

But, I think what we're reacting to is the fact that Wynton has (or at least had at one time) a much greater influence on the discussions about Jazz in this country - or at least influence on what those who don't really know what jazz is, think jazz is. Paul Jackson Jr. has no influence whatsoever, in any way, on setting the agenda for what the public thinks of as being Jazz. People who like smooth jazz will either buy his stuff, or they won't.

Unfortunately Wynton has much more influence. No, of course no one person can stifle an entire musical genre, but he certainly has taught a whole bunch of admittedly "uneducated-about-jazz" suburbanites what his limited definition of jazz is, and he's done a similar thing in his educational outreach programs. I think that this has done a disservice to the music, but it's been great for Wynton Inc. - to put it mildly. (Yeah, I know – business is down for Wynton Inc. these days, but ain't that the truth all around.)

I'm not saying everything the man's ever done is evil, certainly not, but there are a number of very strong opinions that he holds, which I think are counterproductive - opinions which he seems to preach whenever he gets a soapbox to preach from (like in seemingly every Jazz documentary I've ever seen on PBS). And for that, I will always have a tough time stomaching Wynton, no matter what label he’s on.

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#1, mnytime, its a press release. Did you expect brutal honesty or the usual puffery?

Secondly, you really don't know if "no other label would go near him with a fifty foot pole". Obviously, in the current climate, no one was going to come close to his old Sony contract, but at the same time, it was inevitable that WM would sign with a new label.

Here's an idea that is sure to offend WM's legion of detractors:

He should take his faux-Ellington arrangements and apply them to the greatest tunes from Blue Note history, like Moanin' or Sidewinder, No Room For Squares, Footprints ... believe it or not, I'd want to hear it.

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Guest Mnytime

#1, mnytime, its a press release. Did you expect brutal honesty or the usual puffery?

Secondly, you really don't know if "no other label would go near him with a fifty foot pole". Obviously, in the current climate, no one was going to come close to his old Sony contract, but at the same time, it was inevitable that WM would sign with a new label.

Here's an idea that is sure to offend WM's legion of detractors:

He should take his faux-Ellington arrangements and apply them to the greatest tunes from Blue Note history, like Moanin' or Sidewinder, No Room For Squares, Footprints ... believe it or not, I'd want to hear it.

Ummm yes I know it is a press release but it's still funny as hell and yes I do know actually when I say no other major would come near him and I am not talking about Sony money. You should not assume to know what I might or might not know.

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He should take his faux-Ellington arrangements and apply them to the greatest tunes from Blue Note history, like Moanin' or Sidewinder, No Room For Squares, Footprints ... believe it or not, I'd want to hear it.

Just reading that sounds like fingernails on a blackboard to me.

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Kevin

I didn't think Blue Note would be stupid enough to pay Sony type money to someone who is a washout from another label. I just find the announcement to be funny with it's praise of WM. No other label would come near him with a 50ft pole to sign him but they are still going with the usual "Savior of Jazz"

Mnytime,

I knew what you meant by your post. No harm meant.

Savior is a strange word to use. Savior? I didn't know Jazz needed "saving". :)

Just so we're clear on this announcement, I think it's pretty stupid myself. However, Blue Note's web team seems filled with masters of hyperbole. Check out some of their write-ups over there! They make Dusty Groove copyright team look like pros. All hype, hype and more hype. Blue Note seems to be spending money on one thing, that's for sure: Stupid advertising bozos.

BTW, I remember during my visit to Blue Note a few years back that there was this big plaque on the wall proclaiming Blue Note the "Smooth Jazz Label of the Year" for 2001. It nearly brought a tear to my eye. I saw that plaque and asked Tom why they stopped putting their smoothies on the Manhattan Records label and he said something about consolidating the labels or some such hooey. It's sad that the Blue Note label has been so twisted to be what it never was. And people thought US-3's hip-hop stuff was sacreligeous? :lol:

Later,

Kevin

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#1, mnytime, its a press release.  Did you expect brutal honesty or the usual puffery?

Secondly, you really don't know if "no other label would go near him with a fifty foot pole".  Obviously, in the current climate, no one was going to come close to his old Sony contract, but at the same time, it was inevitable that WM would sign with a new label.

Here's an idea that is sure to offend WM's legion of detractors:

He should take his faux-Ellington arrangements and apply them to the greatest tunes from Blue Note history, like Moanin' or Sidewinder, No Room For Squares, Footprints ... believe it or not, I'd want to hear it.

Ummm yes I know it is a press release but it's still funny as hell and yes I do know actually when I say no other major would come near him and I am not talking about Sony money. You should not assume to know what I might or might not know.

Edit: I made a flip comment here about musicboy, owing mostly to my faulty memory.

Edited by Dan Gould
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