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Blue Note signs WM


sonnyhill

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Locally, most Wynton Marsalis detractors that I query gave up listening to him after "J Mood." They've heard about ten minutes total of the other works and decide they don't like it, period. Mainly because of the position they perceive WM to hold in the public eye, the fawning and frothing writing of Crouch, and the fact that he writes for big ensembles, which they aren't at all in to. . . they want to see endless serpentine twistings of the Shorter and second Miles Quintet variety.

I've pondered actually playing some of Marsalis' work of the last decade which I think are quite good and getting an honest reaction, but I think from their jealousy and their stubborness I'll never get an honest reaction. They already know it is tired crap. Although my own listening tells me it isn't.

They already don't like the Blue Note, one of them told me that it is going to suck when I mentioned that I finally saw notice from the label that he had been signed!

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I've got to ask: What's the "good water" being referred to? Am I reading this right? Is "good water" Everette Harp, Najee & Norah Jones or are they the "bad wine"? Considering other statements expressed in this thread, I would almost think that "bad wine" is Wynton Marsalis' unrecorded Blue Note date. However, that would imply that you would prefer Everette Harp, Najee or Norah Jones to Wynton's unrecorded Blue Note date. That can't be what I'm seeing.

No, Kevin, as you have done before, you deliberately misconstue. It goes without saying that no one here is comparing something that does not exist with something that does--IMO, that's just a bit of nonsense that you inject for the sake of argument.

It is no secret that Wynton has a history of releasing less than stellar performances. As with all other performers, any assessment of his musical ability must be based on his previous work--what anyone does in the future may be predictable, but it is never etched in stone. So when you pretend not to understand my analogy, you are, I think, being disingenuous.

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I've got to ask: What's the "good water" being referred to? Am I reading this right? Is "good water" Everette Harp, Najee & Norah Jones or are they the "bad wine"? Considering other statements expressed in this thread, I would almost think that "bad wine" is Wynton Marsalis' unrecorded Blue Note date. However, that would imply that you would prefer Everette Harp, Najee or Norah Jones to Wynton's unrecorded Blue Note date. That can't be what I'm seeing.

Well, maybe from me it is...

Harp I've got little use for, what I've heard of him sounds rather hack-like, but Najee can play with subtlty and nuance (relative to his context), and his output is amongst the better of the "smooth" genre (although neither gets the groove that George Howard did, and BN should put his THERE'S A RIOT GOIN' ON CD back in print, but very, VERY quietly, if you get my drift...), which means that for those special times when "smooth jazz" is called for (ie, crusing the mall, riding an elevator, prolonged dental work with heavy anesthesia, making out with the wife behind some bigass armoire in the deserted furniture section of your favorite department store, you know, stuff like that), I'd MUCH rather hear Najee than that big hairy blubbergut (not that I'm one to talk, alas...) tanktop wearin' Richard Elliot, or the demon who shall remain nameless, or so much other of the crap in the genre that has absolutely NO inherent musicality, no matter HOW deeply you excavate into the fecal facade. So yeah, everything's relative, but if forced to choose I'll take quality smooth over so-so "real" jazz more often than not. Ideally, I'll be able to avoid both, but if I'm ever THAT lucky, I'm heading to Vegas before it wears off... ;)

Norah I've gone on record as liking very much, and as having an interest to see what direction she takes musically. She COULD turn into quite a significant performer or she could crap out into PrettyKittyLand and never return. But her being on Blue Note, and having Lundvall's guidance, gives me more hope for the former than if she had been signed by ANY other label. The lady has potential. Potential is mostly all it is right now, but how many artists in ANY genre can you say that about these days? "Jazz" or not, I'm interested in hearing where she goes from here.

Besides, there's enough high-quality NON-jazz music out there (more than enough, actually) that "settling" for some "ok" jazz just ain't a habit I've really gotten into. Now that's not to say that Wynton's BN album WILL be "just ok". It MIGHT be better than that. The guy doesn't SUCK, ya'know. But I just do not care for him as a player or a composer. My feelings about him in this regard could best be described as "indifferent" at best, "blase" at worst. I've heard selections from most of his output (KNTU played each new release, seemingly, for a few weeks after street date), and honestly, it just kinda went in one ear and out the other, ESPECIALLY when the stuff wasn't announced in advance, which I think is revealing. If I heard in advance that it was Wynton, I'd pay closer attention because he's supposed to be, you know, "important" and all that, and I figured that maybe THIS time I'd get it. But no...Although I've heard most of his later output, none of it has stuck with me at all. In the recent "Best/Worst Wynton Album" polls, I said that I was "unfamiliar" with any of the albums listed, and that's true, even after having heard selections from most of them on the radio with some minimal regularity. It's very rare that music leaves me SO indifferent that I can't remember anything about it other than that I can't remember anything about it. But such is the effect that Wynton's music has had on me.

I give the guy credit for making a personal evolution beyond his early "Miles Clone" days, and, in fairness, those who still pigeonhole him as such really haven't been listening. I also admire him for exploring his New Orleans roots, as well as those of Gospel & Ellington. I DO believe that he has his own "voice", musically, but I just don't dig it - it seems hollow or something to me, a voice, sure, but one that just doesn't say anything to get your attention. I've never, EVER, heard Wynton play ANYTHING that makes me spontaneously shout out "mother FUCKER!!!!" in sheer delight, and those who have spent enough time hanging out with me will attest that that's something I'm not at all averse to doing. ;) No, Wynton has just never reached me in that place that all the musicians I LOVE do, or even the place that those I'm merely fond of tickle when the mood is right. I don't begrudge those who enjoy him more than I, Of such differences are the world made, no?

Now, Wynton as a "figure" in the music is somebody I have VERY strong feelings about, but I've elaborated on those here and elsewhere often (and vehemently) enough that I think my feeling on the matter are known by all who care (and probably by some who don't!). But I CAN seperate my feelings about Wynton Marsalis the musician from those about WYNTON MARSALIS the man who sold jazz back to Massa's plantation in exchange for 30 pieces of silver (or any other hyperbolic mixed metaphor of derision you care to come up with...), just as I can rant rather violently about the evil that was STAN KENTON the Great White Hope of Jazz from the mid-40s to the early 60s but STILL enjoy some of his albums, and even consider a couple (CITY OF GLASS & ADVENTURES IN JAZZ come readily to mind), not quite essential but still "recommended". There's a few Wynton albums I could recommend (the first one, BLACK CODES, and especially HOT HOUSE FLOWERS - LOVE the string writing on that one!), so it's not like I think the guy is a joke as a musician. I don't. As a "spokesman" for jazz, yes, but NOT as a musician.

OTOH, like I said, the guy just leaves me going "Yeah? And?" way more often than not, so I'm not REAL optimistic that just signing a deal with Blue Note is going to change all that. But who knows? Truthfully, who the hell among us REALLY knows? None of us, if we're honest. But if I were a betting man (who, ME? :D ), I'd look for some kind of sign, some kind of historical precedent, and for me, that might be the recording of Wynton playing A LOVE SUPREME live in Japan with Elvin on drums. Now, them's pretty high stakes as far as I'm concerned, and although I've heard another recording of another Elvin group doing it that was pretty mediocre, it was Pat LaBarbera on tenor - pleasant competency was all that was expected, and pleasant competency was all that was delivered. I actually went into the Wynton/Elvin recording with high hopes - I mean, if you're as serious about the spiritual and cultural heritage of jazz as Wynton seems to be, this is, you know, some SERIOUS shit to be getting into. But dammit, the guy just fell flat. Not that he played BADLY, mind you. His execution was flawless, and his ideas his own. But there was just no "there" there, no "mother FUCKER" moment (or moments) where the cat grabbed the music by the cojones and said, "I'M WYNTON MARSALIS!!! I'M PLAYING A LOVE SUPREME WITH ELVIN-FUCKING-JONES!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!! DIG THIS SHIT DAMMIT!!!" It was all just rather tepid, especially considering everything involved. In fact, Elvin actually kicked it up a notch AFTER Wynton finished his solo - for the PIANO solo, for crissakes!

Besides, I think that Wynton's "reign" has probably plateaued and he's done all the harm (or good, if you see it that way) he's going to do. The culture has shifted enough that newer, younger audiences are more interested in seeing/hearing something with a visceral punch AND some musical "substance" (ie - jambands & avant garde) than they are in checking out some dude in a 3-piece delivering lectures before he plays each piece of music. That time has passed, or more accurately, is in the act of passing (don't worrry though, it WILL be back - these things inevitably come - and go - in cycles). Wynton's consolodated his audience, and a fixed audience it's likely to remain from here on out, more or less. I'd not bet my house on that just yet, but I could probably put one of our cars on the line, if you like... He was in sync with a certain era of American culture and now, having established his "persona" so firmly in line with that era (the ever beloved "traditional values" days :rolleyes: ), will probably remain there. Most folks do, so no biggie. Smart career move, and far be it from me to knock somebody for that.

So in summary:

  • Good "smooth jazz" over "just ok" straight-ahead? Yes, if I just absolutely, positively MUST, I suppose so. At least there's the potential for sex.
  • Wynton's new one for BN? Not optimistic, but will wait and see. Why not?
  • Wynton taking over BN or some such? No way - the cat ain't got the juice. Besides, Bruce Lundvall, thank God, ain't George Butler.

Thanks for tuning in, and see you next week.

Edited by JSngry
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I've pondered actually playing some of Marsalis' work of the last decade which I think are quite good and getting an honest reaction, but I think from their jealousy and their stubborness I'll never get an honest reaction.  They already know it is tired crap.  Although my own listening tells me it isn't.

Well, to counter this I can give my own personal experience. I used to listen to Jazz FM (UK station) a lot - and every so often there would come on this bit of music and I'd think I quite like that, what does it remind me of? And I wouldn't be able to quite place it. And then, after a bit, I'd realize my attention was wandering - and I'd think when is he going to start doing something. And by the end (maybe 6 minutes) my attention had gone somewhere else. And then the announcer would come on and say that's Wynton Marsalis's XYZ. And I'd think, oh yes, of course. And that happened to me 3 or 4 times.

Always the same.

As blindfold tests go....

Simon Weil

Edited by Simon Weil
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Comparing your musical taste, expectations and experiences with another’s is sometimes a quizzical thing. It can be downright awkward if you happen to like and respect the other as an individual and his value his opinions —especially if that someone else has superior working knowledge. Having said that…

I’m mystified when someone says they can’t find anything of interest in Wynton’s music. Several tunes leap to mind (and from a guy not given to remembering titles) starting with the Second Davis Quintet informed “Twilight” and its vicious single-note bass line. There’s “Premature Autopsies” whose closest relative might be Mingus’ “Scenes In the City,” “Cityscape” with its joy of textural arrangement and then there’s the sheer fun of “The Cat In the Hat Is Back.”

Perhaps Wynton’s influences are too obvious for some? Maybe, but I’m not sure that I hear the music of a conservative revisionist either. What I do hear is someone tapping elements of the past to see what can be done with them today, and in a very personal individual/ensemble voice. Financially successful or not, I think Wynton has an excellent opportunity with Blue Note to move in yet another direction.

Oh well, just another 2¢.

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Guest Mnytime

Will Wynton produce something meatier than Everette Harp, Najee, or Norah Jones? Very likely, but I think good water is preferable to bad wine.

I'm with you on that one, Chris.

Me too.

I have to admit to liking that analogy as well. Count me in too.

Since I don't drink I can only say I understand what you're saying. ;)

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Personally, I can't get worked up one way or another about Wynton signing with Blue Note. Some may find his music boring, but it's a lot more interesting than all of the digital ink people waste on talking about him! On the other hand, I guess considering the fact that HE is the cause of all of problems "creative" jazz musicians face today, maybe we all SHOULD be mad that Blue Note would dare sign him! I just can't get worked up about it, that's all. I mean, yes, I know David S. Ware's new recording of the Freedom Suite would be on top of the Billboard Jazz sales charts if it wasn't for Wynton telling people not to like that kind of thing. After all, the American public sits glued to their radios and tv's waiting to hear what Wynton has to say about jazz.

Face it, most people have NO CLUE about jazz. None. Not at all. They don't give an f*@% about innovation or improvisation or swing or avant garde or what is or isn't jazz. And they especially don't care about J@LC. The argument that Wynton has deluded the masses about what "is" jazz doesn't fly. We in the jazz world think everyone knows who Wynton is, but believe me, most people I know have no clue who he is, and no clue about anything about jazz. If I tell someone I'm a jazz fan, there's two stock reactions. 1) blank stare, 2) oh, I LOVE Kenny G! Wynton isn't a factor. Jazz started down the road to elitism decades before Wynton was born, and to 96 percent of the population it is totally irrelvant and that has NOTHING to do with Wynton, they don't even know who he is! Do you really think an auto mechanic in Oklahoma City who has to work all day and then gets home and worries about how he's going to pay the next month's rent is going to give a damn about pretentious improvised art music (with no lyrics)? - Wynton or not? Either way, jazz is not a factor in his life, or the lives of most people, this is NOT Wynton's fault, and he has NOTHING to do with it. Yes, it may be a big topic of debate in the uppity Lincoln Center scene or oh so hip downtown music circles, (or on jazz BBS's) but to most people jazz, no matter what - Ken Burns, Pulitzer Prize, Columbia Records, three piece suit, gumbo - jazz, be it swing, bebop, fusion, avant garde or retro, simply isn't an issue, and it's not even close to being one! Only crazy jazz people like us who live in our own little worlds can't figure out why more people would rather buy the new Beyonce record rather than a new Joe Lovano cd. To quote a famous scholar - "duh!" Wynton didn't kill jazz, because most people don't know it EVER existed! This is one of those crazy arcane topics that insiders in a particular biz or scene go crazy about, and one which outsiders say, "what's all the fuss about - WHO CARES!" Wynton threads remind me of Star Trek conventions where people get into arguments about why Spock said "blank" in episode 31. It may seem like a big life and death issue of passion for those who are so into it, but in reality it's all a bunch of BS that doesn't really matter. All these Wynton lovers and haters need to go out and get into the real world and get a life! So what if he's on Blue Note. Aside from freaks like us WHO CARES and WHY SHOULD THEY?

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I see Wynton and the LJO a lot on BET Jazz. That's my real exposure to his current playing.

That said, and taken from a real "don't hold me to it" point of view.... Seems like I just don't hear a lot of cohesion in his trumpet playing. Some modern sounds/thoughts followed by some Pops-style licks and phrasing...it just seems disjointed. I'm not sure where he's coming from. If his attempt is to assimilate all eras of jazz trumpet into a singular style, I don't think it's successful at this point...although perhaps in the future he will find a way to do it in a singular voice.

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Also, what earthly fucking reason is there for anyone to give Marsalis ANY more chances? Has everyone really decided that Dave Ballou and Rob Blakeslee (who?) couldn't use a little love as well?

Does anyone think a CD by Dave Ballou or Ron Blakesee (who? indeed) will sell better than Wynton's upcoming disc? I don't think so. I imagine that is the reason that Blue Note signed Wynton: to sell CDs. Even if, as the naysayers predict, Wynton's effort is an artistic flop, it will most likely sell just fine in "Jazz numbers". I bet it will rank right up there in sales for Jazz... not "Norah numbers", not "Krall numbers" but definitely "Lovano numbers".

FWIW, Blue Note has recently put out several unhearalded Jazzers efforts and they haven't been selling very well. Just recently, Stefano Di Battista's second album was released. Has anyone here ever bought it? I've never heard it mentioned. I've never bought it. I don't know anyone who has. Does this make it a bad CD? No. But it isn't selling. That is due to the name "Stefano Di Battista" more than the music contained. Unknowns rarely bust into the Jazz market and sell well. It usually takes time to build up a reputation. Wynton Marsalis (for good or bad) has a reputation and with that comes name recognition.

Later,

Kevin

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ROB Blakeslee is a great player. Wynton could only dream of improvising at the level of this man. I am taking into consideration the PBS show that Wynton and clan were on. Man did Branford tear Wynton a new one on that track where they took the spotlite.

CAN Wynton improvise?

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CAN Wynton improvise?

If Wynton CAN'T improvise, than please tell me what it is he is doing.

You may not LIKE Wynton's improvisations, but lets not pretend that he CAN'T improvise.

The comments about these other people being more "deserving" just shows what it all boils down to: resentment and jealousy. Resentment that, for whatever reason, hype, self-promotion, or talent, Wynton's name is as well-recognized as any in jazz, and all these presumably fantastic musicians labor in obscurity.

Next we'll hear that for the money spent on Wynton, a good half dozen of these artists could have been signed, and rescued from obscurity.

Give me a break.

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"But he has nothing on!" a little child cried out at last.

"Just hear what the innocent says!" said the father; and one whispered to another what the child had said.

"But he has nothing on!" said the whole people at length. That touched the Emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought within himself, "I must go through with the procession." And the chamberlains held on tighter than ever, and carried the train which did not exist at all. --Hans Christian Andersen

It's all about promotion. Without the promotion (hype, if you will) accorded Wynton, he would today be regarded as just another player, possibly relegated to perennial sideman status. Conversely, given even a fraction of the promotion Wynton has enjoyed, many musicians who remain relatively unknown would be booked by those who base their hiring on name recognition rather than talent.

As I have said before, this is not Wynton's fault--we cannot blame him for taking advantage of a system that pitches musicians in much the same manner as they might pitch a new gadget. The music industry used to be fueled by talent and headed by people who recognized and nurtured talent. It is no longer so. Now the lawyers, accountants, and other hucksters are in charge, singing has been reduced to monotonous melisma, and a performer who--after almost thirty years of inflated attention and performance opportunities--has yet to produce anything of enduring artistic worth, has been morphed, via media and PR, into the personification of jazz.

To be frank, stripping off the hype leaves little that might justify the attention given Wynton.

Edited by Christiern
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"But he has nothing on!" a little child cried out at last.

"Just hear what the innocent says!" said the father; and one whispered to another what the child had said.

"But he has nothing on!" said the whole people at length. That touched the Emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought within himself, "I must go through with the procession." And the chamberlains held on tighter than ever, and carried the train which did not exist at all. --Hans Christian Andersen

It's all about promotion. Without the promotion (hype, if you will) accorded Wynton, he would today be regarded as just another player, possibly relegated to perennial sideman status. Conversely, given even a fraction of the promotion Wynton has enjoyed, many musicians who remain relatively unknown would be booked by those who base their hiring on name recognition rather than talent.

As I have said before, this is not Wynton's fault--we cannot blame him for taking advantage of a system that pitches musicians in much the same manner as they might pitch a new gadget. The music industry used to be fueled by talent and headed by people who recognized and nurtured talent. It is no longer so. Now the lawyers, accountants, and other hucksters are in charge, singing has been reduced to monotonous melisma, and a performer who--after almost thirty years of inflated attention and performance opportunities--has yet to produce anything of enduring artistic worth, has been morphed, via media and PR, into the personification of jazz.

To be frank, stripping off the hype leaves little that might justify the attention given Wynton.

Chris, this is the kind of shit you pull that really gets my goat. It's OK for you to post quotes from "The Emporer Has No Clothes" but if I interject a nonsensical interpretation to one of these quotes, as I did with your "water & wine" quote, I somehow "deliberately misconstue (sic). It goes without saying that no one here is comparing something that does not exist with something that does--IMO, that's just a bit of nonsense that you inject for the sake of argument."

So it's OK for you to post a FAIRY TALE story in a discussion about Wynton Marsalis?? And now if I poke holes in it, which would be simple given that IT'S A FAIRY TALE, of course, you would immediately take some stand that I'm injecting nonsense??

You are pitiful.

Later,

Kevin

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Also, I think Blue Note did well to having a roster of players in the 50's and 60's (playing on each other's albums), and they kind of returned to that (slightly) in the various colaborations between Osby, Moran, Harris, and Shim. I would think Moran's and Harris' sales could only have been helped by their being on various relatively successful Osby albums. (Or is it not fair to call any of Osby's albums "relatively successful"??? :unsure: )

From what I heard, most of Osby's CDs are selling fine with the exception of "Symbols of Light (A Solution)" which supposedly tanked. Also, don't assume that because a CD is currently out of print that it "didn't sell". I bet quite a few of Osby's and Renee Rosnes' and even Mark Shim's CDs sold fine but just dropped off over their years in print to the point where it wasn't financially viable to keep the title in print.

BTW, I've still yet to understand why Blue Note has to pay so much money to keep a title in print. Thank god I am not in the music business. In my efforts to keep everything in print, I'd bankrupt the company in no time flat.:)

Later,

Kevin

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Also, don't assume that because a CD is currently out of print that it "didn't sell". I bet quite a few of Osby's and Renee Rosnes' and even Mark Shim's CDs sold fine but just dropped off over their years in print to the point where it wasn't financially viable to keep the title in print.

I think even some of Scofield's BN albums are out of print, and I'm sure those sold more than Osby.

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Kevin Breshnahan said:

Chris, this is the kind of shit you pull that really gets my goat. It's OK for you to post quotes from "The Emporer Has No Clothes" but if I interject a nonsensical interpretation to one of these quotes, as I did with your "water & wine" quote, I somehow "deliberately misconstrue. It goes without saying that no one here is comparing something that does not exist with something that does--IMO, that's just a bit of nonsense that you inject for the sake of argument."

I don't know what your problem is, Kevin (although I have an idea), but--as we saw--nobody else had difficulty understanding my wine/water analogy. I also think other posters will easily grasp the Andersen analogy, but you obviously either don't get it, or you have slipped back into the argumentative mode I had come to associate with you.

The Wynton Marsalis Blue Note album does not exist--H.C. Andersen's story does. Get it now?

How "pitiful" is that?

BTW For future reference, you might wish to know that the title of Andersen's story is not "The Emporer (sic) Has No Clothes," but rather "The Emperor's New Clothes."

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I don't know what your problem is, Kevin (although I have an idea), but--as we saw--nobody else had difficulty understanding my wine/water analogy. I also think other posters will easily grasp the Andersen analogy, but you obviously either don't get it, or you have slipped back into the argumentative mode I had come to associate with you.

The Wynton Marsalis Blue Note album does not exist--H.C. Andersen's story does. Get it now?

How "pitiful" is that?

BTW For future reference, you might wish to know that the title of Andersen's story is not "The Emporer (sic) Has No Clothes," but rather "The Emperor's New Clothes."

Yeah, I'm in "argumentative mode" because you are in "fucking asshole mode".

Clarify your "water & wine" analogy if it's so godamned clear! Were you trying to say that Wynton Marsalis' unrecorded Blue Note date is "bad wine" or "good water"? That's a plain and simple question that you won't answer! Is it because it would expose your pre-prejudice to put down anything associated with Wynton Marsalis?

You write all this stuff with all the puffery of a professional writer (no suprise there) and when anyone writes something you don't like, suddenly they become "childish" (one of your favorite terms), "argumentative" whatever... all kinds of well written prose. Well, I've got no puffery for you: You're an asshole, albeit a well-written one. I wish you would just go away.

Later,

Kevin

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Guest Chaney

Boys! Boys!

Let's settle down, shall we?

We're all just pognosticating here. Time will tell who came closest to guessing the outcome of this saga.

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Sorry Kevin, I guess I overestimated your intelligence, but I was right about your, shall we say, less than mature attitude.

Calm down, send Michael Cuscuna a greeting card (give him my regards), and try to find Dale Carnegie's celebrated "How to" book--you know the one I mean. :g

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Boys! Boys!

Let's settle down, shall we?

We're all just pognosticating here. Time will tell who came closest to guessing the outcome of this saga.

You know Chaney, I looked at my previous post for about 5 minutes before hitting "post". I do not like posting all that negative crap about any person I interact with but you know, I am just sick & tired of Chris Albertson's "same ol' same ol'" when it comes to Wynton. fed up with it. I am most upset because of the fact that over on Jazz Corner's Speakeasy, where there is another thread about Wynton's signing, Chris has toned down his schtick because there's another well-written poster, Another Steve, who is able to say clearly, in a way that even Chris can't refute, that he is just going to watch & see. Over here on Organissimo, where Chris has less resistance because most people here have given up trying to convince him that his negativity toward Wynton, he takes a much more antagonistic approach.

If Chris wants to take a bit less antagonistic attitude here, I am all for it! Let's see him start by stopping his usual practice of refuting every single positive that is posted about Wynton!!

"Bad wine"? "The Emperor's New Suit"? These things are all written to put down a session that Wynton Marsalis has not even recorded yet. I think that is a sucky attitude.

Later,

Kevin

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