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Blue Note signs WM


sonnyhill

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Dear me, Kevin, as I said, you really need to calm down. Worry about you own opinions not mine. I am truly sorry to learn that you are "sick" of me soiling this board by "sprinkling" my "lousy attitude" re Wynton. Well, Mr. I-wanna-get-in-with-Blue-Note (yes, I'm afraid that's quite apparent), I don't think any of us post here to please or displease you (I'll have to re-read the rules), so I really don't think it's up to you to sanction or not who may post or what they may post. That's a bit presumptuous, don't you think?

And here's the pomposity that we all have come to expect from Chris A. Who are you Chris, Fraser Crane?

If you honestly think for a minute that "I-wanna-get-in-with-Blue-Note", you're even sadder than I thought. I am a computer geek working in an engineering department of a high tech company. The last thing I would do is trade this in for a job in the music industry.

What I do is simply call Michael Cuscuna and, ocassionally Tom Evered (who's impossible to get hold of) and ask them what's up. They know I browse the Internet. Michael knows I can get what he's up to out to the general public. It alleviates him from having to do it. I've been "getting Michael's words" out onto the Internet since 1994, back when Jazz discussion was limited to the rec.music.bluenote newsgroup. They also know I tell them when something's up that needs their attention, like a screwed up CD of a mistake on some artwork... sort of an on-line quality control department.

What I don't do is ask them for special favors or try to get some kind of "job". I have probably received a handful of promos, all received from Tom during a visit to BN a few years back. I have never received a promo Mosaic box or even a discounted Mosaic box. I do not do what I do here on these boards for me, I do it for us. I know people here on this board as well as others want this information I can get from Michael. If that makes me a loser, so be it. I happen to feel that I'm doing something positive for the people here.

Can you say the same, Chris?

Later,

Kevin

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Get over it, Breshnahan! You twist the truth to suit your own biases. Take a good look at yourself--read your tantrum posts and think about what you are saying--more importantly, think about why you are getting all worked up about things that are a figment of your own imagination. It speaks volumes that, with all the criticism that continues to be leveled at Wynton and--since you brought him up--Ken Burns, you have a hissy fit reading my posts. I'm sure you know that there truly are people out there who have nothing positive to say about Wynton--you also know that I am not one of them. So, what's your problem? If you think all this is going to endear you to the Blue Note people, I think you may be underestimating Michael's intelligence--your foul language and hateful attitude is not the kind of representation any label embraces.

To sum up, I don't know how others feel about your little conjecture-based tantrums, but--given how off-the-wall and personal your rants against me are--I think they are juvenile.

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To sum up, I don't know how others feel about your little conjecture-based tantrums, but--given how off-the-wall and personal your rants against me are--I think they are juvenile.

Ah, juvenile... that's a new one. I guess you got tired of "infantile". You act as if I am the one engaging in a "personal" attack on you and yet these words of yours, "juvenile", hissy fit", "conjecture", "hysterical" and "paranoid". The word that comes to mind for you is "senile". You seem to forget a lot of things you say. I remember a lot of them... and all of them are negative... and nearly all of them are personal affronts. You are one of the most negative people I have ever encountered on the Internet.

If you was to get personal, personally, you are not someone I like to engage with. I had hoped that, given your experiences in the Jazz world, I could get along with you. Hear some stories. Learn what it was like to live with Lil Armstrong. Instead, I've seen you go on & on with Greg about politics, get into pissing contests with hardbop and now (with no hardbop around) attack me with all these derogatory terms and even accuse me of somehow trying to get brownie points with Blue Note. Your negativity has reached a new low... and my opinion of you has reached a nadir.

As for me engaging in conjecture... what?? That's baloney. It's a fact that you have something against Wynton Marsalis. This fact is supported by your incessant negative posts about the guy. The fact that you are upping the venom with this last post of yours shows how much the mention of "Ken Burns' Jazz" burns you up.

I suggest you look in the mirror. You are the one having "hissy fits" here. You are the one who can't stop yourself from making disparaging remarks whenever anyone has anything to say about Wynton Marsalis. You are the one who won't bring this disagreement out of the place it is. YOU.

Later,

Kevin

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couw is right, this meaningless exchange is a bore.

Breshnahan, your last post underlines what many of your previous rants suggested: "juvenile" is an apt term. You obviously have a problem and I recognize it as your problem, so I will leave you with it. Just bear in mind that I have never started a thread on Wynton nor launched an attack on you. It is all in your head. I respond to posts and (as you have seen) occasionally to baits; if you don't like what I have to say...well, that's tough. You're on your own, so grow up and get a life! :rolleyes:

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couw is right, this meaningless exchange is a bore.

Breshnahan, your last post underlines what many of your previous rants suggested: "juvenile" is an apt term. You obviously have a problem and I recognize it as your problem, so I will leave you with it. Just bear in mind that I have never started a thread on Wynton nor launched an attack on you. It is all in your head. I respond to posts and (as you have seen) occasionally to baits; if you don't like what I have to say...well, that's tough. You're on your own, so grow up and get a life! :rolleyes:

You know, Chris, the last time I decided I had enough of your negativity and started this pointless debate with you, I mentioned then how much it bothered me that you always mis-spell my name. You came back with some flippant comment about how you "barely knew me" at which point I pointed out that we had met and I had even taken your picture. Now, here you are again, with the "Breshnahan" stuff. You might even be doing it on purpose, as a disguised put-down.

You should also notice that I have never called you "Albertson". Calling someone by their last name is a sort of all-purpose tool many people use to distance themselves.... keep it formal, right? Once again you misunderstand why I come on-line and join in conversations with people here. I do it for the comraderie. I do it because I find people like myself who are Jazz fans and they truly enjoy talking about it. I see no need for formality on these boards. I only post with my last name because there have been (and always will be) more than one "Kevin".

Later,

Kevin

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I know that nothing's been directed at me, either explicitly or implicitly, but I'm wondering why those who have feelings that Wynton's music is mediocre (or at best, "good", which given the reservoir of true greatness this music has produced, is hardly cause for celebration - you're SUPPOSED to be "good"!) and at the same time feel that, for lack of a better word, "preeminence" that the purveyor of this music has attained in certain business circles of the music is essentially a matter of hype, a triumph of style over substance, are automatically assumed to have made our musical judgements based entirely on jealousy, bitterness, or some other personal factor that is seemingly assumed to cloud our ability to objectively judge the music.

I say this in all honesty and MUSICAL objectivity - Wynton's musical output just doesn't do it for me, and I'd have EXACTLY the same opinion in THIS regard if the guy were as low on the totem pole of public/industry awareness as Rob Blakeslee (who BTW is an EXCELLENT player of both "in" & "out" types of jazz - check him out!). Now, granted, I'd might be less VOCAL about my feelings about Wynton's music if he were just another cat on the scene, but those feelings would still be the same - I just don't find his playing or composing, taken as a whole, to have the flavor or substance that I enjoy in ANY kind of music. I began to lose interest after BLACK CODES, and actually applauded some of his earlier pronouncements (and still do - his comments on the degree of irresponsible exploitation of adolescent sexuality and rebellion in the current pop world ring very true to me, and always have. His opinions of electric Miles, otoh, I found totally full of shit even when I was enthusiastic about his potential).

Again, the rancor that I feel about Wynton is based ENTIRELY on the effect that I see as him having on the music's BUSINESS developement from the early-80s up until about 5 years ago. But that is ENTIRELY another matter, ENTIRELY seperate from how I feel about his music. There's players who I find equally "good" or "mediocre" if you like) who I feel are having (or have had) a positive overall effect on the music, and I applaud them for that effect/influence while remaining less than enthusiastic about their actual music (ie - Ken Vandermark, to use a current example). Similarly, there are artists who have created what I feel is a significant, perhaps even profound, body of work for themselves who I feel have had a deliterious overall effect on their idiom, and perhaps even society as a whole (Sinatra come immediately to mind).

So please - do not assume (ANYBODY) that my, or anybody else's for that matter, feelings about Wynton Marsalis's MUSIC are inextricably linked to my/our feelings about Wynton Marsalis the FIGURE. 'T'aint NECESSARILY so!

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  • Well said, Jim. Those are exactly my feelings, but some pwoplw--as you suggest--feel that they have to rationalize opinions that are contrary to their own. So critique is automatically labeled as jealousy, bitterness, or what-have-you. That kind of thinking (or lack thereof) is so immature. For one thing, it pre-supposes that your assessment is right and everyone else's is wrong, that someone who happens not to care for your that which pleases you must have a hidden agenda. If someone does not share my enthusiasm for something, curiosity makes me want to know why--am I missing something? Are they? Could either one of us perhaps point out a factor that might make a difference?

    Political arguments easily become heated, but that's the nature of the beast--most of us, if we are into politics at all, plant our feet firmly where our viewpoints lie. Still, even political differences can, when they get out of hand, be patched up. Getting all wrought up over music is, I think, another matter--when that happens, I am inclined to believe that something else is seething under the surface. Do I like it when people share my musical taste? Of course. Do I pull the lid off a basket of asps when they don't? Of course not!

    Do Dan Gould and I get along now? Indeed we do. Has either one of us come over to the other's side of the political fence? Absolutely not. Dan and I just acted maturely and recognized that it had not always been so.

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If someone does not share my enthusiasm for something, curiosity makes me want to know why--am I missing something? Are they? Could either one of us perhaps point out a factor that might make a difference?

Other than political issues, where have you shown "enthusiasm"? You certainly don't show any enthusiasm on this thread. You never show enthusiasm on any thread about music that I've seen lately.

The other aspect of your statement, where you claim to "want to know why--am I missing something" is entirely laughable. Despite several people pointing out to you that everything Wynton has put out isn't bad and that Wynton puts on a great performance in person, you refuse to look into it and dismiss it out of hand. Now you have stooped to posting 20 year old reviews to show that you can say good things about Wynton. That does not excuse the fact that you dissed Wynton's signing with Blue Note with the implication that he will make a bad record for them.

I also happen to think that you went overboard on this thread which is about a record that has yet to be recorded.

As for Jim's comments, all I can say, Jim, is that I hope you don't somehow begin to think that I am a big fan of Wynton Marsalis. I am not and may never be a big fan of Wynton Marsalis. However, I would never do what Chris Albertson does on-line. If I can't say anything good about something, I always try to "bite my tongue" and keep it to myself. There are many, many conversations going on about artists that I happen to think suck. What good does it do for me to come into a thread and say, "I think he sucks"? It does nothing but turn that thread into a big argument. If the people in that thread were having a fun conversation about this artist and they truly enjoy him/her, why the hell should I screw it all up for them? Sometimes, it is better to shut your mouth for the good of the "vibe" of the place. Just look at what Chris has done to this place in the past few days because he can't stay away from "anything Wynton".

Later,

Kevin

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Well, for the record, Kevin, although postings on this matter motivated my last post, it was not directed directly at you specifically, nor even to this Board generally. The Wynton thing has been a fact of life for nearly every professional jazz musician for several decades now, and the assumptions I dealt with are in no way unique to you (and as you've stated, they are probably not your GENERAL perceptions).

It has seemed to me over the years that Wynton is more of "dividing line" or a "factor" in jazz for what he "stands for" rather than for what he plays, and also that there are almost always "extra-musical" factors that enter into any disagreement over him, factors that have always been a part of the jazz musician's life (things like race, "ownership" of the music, public image of the music, etc.). When his profile was at it's peak, it seemed for a while as if it was impossible to express reservations about his music without being immediately labeled as some kind of "enemy" of "real jazz". Usually, and perhaps tellingly, though, these blanket assaults and assumptions were hurled by "civilians", very often those in the promotional wing of the buisiness with a distinct socio-political agenda of their own, and far, FAR less offten by musicians, especially older ones who dug Wynton's rhetoric about their music MUCH more than they dug how he played it. When you're hungry, you don't really care who feeds you until AFTER you're full AND you have a way to get some food for yourself the next time you're hungry. We've all been there in some form or fashion, right?

So Kevin, nothing at all personal in this or the previous post. This is just what I've been through myself, personally and professionally, nothing more and nothing less. I have no axe to grind with Wynton's music - I just don't care for hardly any of it, period. Honestly.

Wynyon's MOUTH on the other hand... :D :D :D

Edited by JSngry
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If I can't say anything good about something, I always try to "bite my tongue" and keep it to myself.

"Ssssssssssssssoooooooooooooooo......", hissed the serpent, a wicked glint in his narrowing eyes, "would you care to join me in a discussion of RON CARTER PLAYS BACH?"

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I agree with you, Jim. These observation have nothing to do with Wynton or Breshnahan, per se; they just happen to be in focus on the present thread--one by choice, one not. As I see it, like most strained arguments, what we had here was about atitudes and a lack of tolerance.

BTW, What you said about the older musicians is something that I, too, have observed.

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I wasn't going to drag this thing out, but I just saw the latest tirade and I'm curious about the following:

Breshnahan:

Just look at what Chris has done to this place in the past few days because he can't stay away from "anything Wynton".

And what, if I may ask, has Albertson "done to this place?"

Aren't we really getting a bit carried away with our venom wiggles? Do we perhaps slightly inflate our importance to this board?

:g:g:g

Sorry, people, I'm through with his games, but I just wish to find out what I have done that so displeases (disgusts?) a self-appointed thread-policer. :rolleyes:

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Sorry, people, I'm through with his games, but I just wish to find out what I have done that so displeases (disgusts?) a self-appointed thread-policer. :rolleyes:

First off, it's "Bresnahan". Get it right. Like I thought, your continuing to get it wrong proves my point that you are belittling me by getting it wrong.

So, what have you done that so displeases me? Let's see...

Your entry into this thread:

"given Wynton's less-than-spectacular musical history"

"Bruce has made a disastrous business decision"

"composition after laborious composition, but not a single one has a fraction of the artistic merit"

number 2 had something to do with musicboy

Entry number 3:

"It was a double-wobble, guess old Wolf is spinning, too." (in response to a question about Alfred Lion spinning in his grave)

Entry number 4:

"we are talking about a rigid, stuck-in-a-bad-groove guy who would not recognize an original musical thought if it splashed against his ears"

"A guy whose "good" performances are few and far between, and have to be qualified"

Entry number 5:

"He has written some horrendous extended stuff"

"his playing is, at best, acceptable"

"He is, after all, so heavily hyped that whatever he lacks in musical value is compensated for by his name recognition"

"Norah Jones and Wynton are musical lightweights on a jazz scene"

"Signing Wynton indicates that Bruce--or whoever made that decision--shares his myopia"

"Will Wynton produce something meatier than Everette Harp, Najee, or Norah Jones? Very likely, but I think good water is preferable to bad wine." (which we've since clarified implies Wynton's music is "bad wine")

Entry number 6:

"no secret that Wynton has a history of releasing less than stellar performances"

Entry number 7:

The quote from "The Emperor's New Suit"

"has yet to produce anything of enduring artistic worth"

Entry number 8 is the (expected) refutation of my previous post

Entry number 9 starts the personal attack on me:

"I guess I overestimated your intelligence"

"I was right about your, shall we say, less than mature attitude"

"try to find Dale Carnegie's celebrated "How to" book--you know the one I mean"

Entry number 10 continues with this attack:

"Kevin's fertile mind is clearly in overdrive"

"Is there a cure for paranoia of this kind"

Entry number 11 is a plea for me to be civil (the above negativity deserves civility??)

Entry number 12 and 13 are Chris cranking up the "positive image" machine. Which I might add is "blowing one's own horn a lot more than anyone else in this thread has done.

Entry 14 is about how the screen was shrunk... I even think it may have been devoid of sarcasm and negativity!

Entry number 15 starts the name game with a continued personal attack on me:

"Get over it, Breshnahan (sic)! You twist the truth to suit your own biases"

"think about why you are getting all worked up about things that are a figment of your own imagination" (Wow, I missed this... I guess all of these quotes are a "figment of my imagination"??)

"If you think all this is going to endear you to the Blue Note people, I think you may be underestimating Michael's intelligence"

"given how off-the-wall and personal your rants against me are--I think they are juvenile. "

Entry number 16:

"Breshnahan (sic), your last post underlines what many of your previous rants suggested: "juvenile" is an apt term"

"I have never started a thread on Wynton nor launched an attack on you"

"grow up and get a life!"

Entry number 17 is a pat on the back to Jim (kind of a "Good boy, Jim, you see my way" post)

Entry number 18 continues with the slight to me by changing my name even after I pointed out the error:

"These observation have nothing to do with Wynton or Breshnahan"

"a lack of tolerance"

Which brings us back to here. 19 posts. 4 which could be called non-negative in nature... most using derogatory adjectives to describe Wynton as well as Blue Note's decision to sign Wynton.

But of course, Chris will come back with some grandiose explanation for all these obvious smears. In fact, by the time he's done, he'll have everyone thinking he's a pure as the virgin snow... yeah, right.

Later,

Kevin

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As for Jim's comments, all I can say, Jim, is that I hope you don't somehow begin to think that I am a big fan of Wynton Marsalis. I am not and may never be a big fan of Wynton Marsalis. However, I would never do what Chris Albertson does on-line. If I can't say anything good about something, I always try to "bite my tongue" and keep it to myself. There are many, many conversations going on about artists that I happen to think suck. What good does it do for me to come into a thread and say, "I think he sucks"? It does nothing but turn that thread into a big argument. If the people in that thread were having a fun conversation about this artist and they truly enjoy him/her, why the hell should I screw it all up for them? Sometimes, it is better to shut your mouth for the good of the "vibe" of the place. Just look at what Chris has done to this place in the past few days because he can't stay away from "anything Wynton".

Kevin,

Speaking for myself, I would love to hear more negativity about some of these jazz people we discuss here. Everyone (especially me) acts all gushy when discussing a BN artist or whatever. I would love to hear your negative comments regarding any artist that I like. Deep did that on AAJ. He hammered at Booker Ervin mercilessly, and Booker had always been one of my favorites. I am willing to listen and learn and I now have been made aware of some of Booker's stylistic inadequacies. I still like Booker, but now I have a more educated opinion. Deep is good at that: being honest and objective.

I happen to appreciate hearing Chris' negative (and positive) comments about Wynton. To me, it is important to hear all sides. If someone dissed my main guys, it wouldn't lead me to view the criticizer as some kind of asshole. Not at all. I would actually appreciate the courage and independent spirit involved in going against the grain.

I started a thread once about naming five favorite Conns as well as some that people may not like. Everyone was quick to jump on the favorites, but were amazingly reluctant to express the ones they didn't care for. Was it because they feared that they would appear ignorant if they found themselves unable to dig a well known jazz musician? I really don't know; but the thread suffered a bit as a consequence.

I try to be fairly open about the aritists I don't particularly care for, and I have mentioned several times that Don Wilkerson is one of them. I know that Jim says we should give him a chance and all that, but I find Wilkerson to be devoid of ideas on his solos.

Please, please, please mention any reservations about any of my favorite artists. I won't be offended and I want to learn too. This exhortation goes out to all the other Org. board members as well.

I will start a thread about this when I get more time.

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Speaking for myself, I would love to hear more negativity about some of these jazz people we discuss here. Everyone (especially me) acts all gushy when discussing a BN artist or whatever. I would love to hear your negative comments regarding any artist that I like. Deep did that on AAJ. He hammered at Booker Ervin mercilessly, and Booker had always been one of my favorites. I am willing to listen and learn and I now have been made aware of some of Booker's stylistic inadequacies. I still like Booker, but now I have a more educated opinion. Deep is good at that: being honest and objective.

There is a problem with what you ask for: You may actually get it! :D

Would you enjoy coming here if we all acted like Deep? Sure, that's taking it to the extreme; but I don't think it would be a better place if we all emulated his Deepness. Him and I have similar musical tastes but even I don't get his on-line persona. I can tell you, he ain't like that over the phone!

I would rather leave the negativity out if I can help it.

Later,

Kevin

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Speaking for myself, I would love to hear more negativity about some of these jazz people we discuss here.

I think a lot has to do with how the negative comments are voiced. Generally, we all come here to enjoy discussing jazz and not really getting into negative feelings, battles, flame wars, etc - I think.

So if I post that I think the new Stefano di Battista is fabulous - which I do, I don't mind negative comments about the record so long as they're not something like - What, are you insane. Do you have functioning ears? Do you even know what jazz is? You know that sort of post that belittles as it expresses disagreement with my stated opinion.

Not sure that Deep is the answer, though

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There is a problem with what you ask for: You may actually get it! :D

Would you enjoy coming here if we all acted like Deep?

No, I wouldn't. I want us all to act as we are.

I would love it if Deep posted over here as well. I want him to act as he does.

you'll have the chance to express negativity about an artist on an upcoming thread here, once I get it established. Of course, Kevin, if you don't want to express negativity you don't have to; but the door is open nevertheless.

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So if I post that I think the new Stefano di Battista is fabulous - which I do, I don't mind negative comments about the record so long as they're not something like - What, are you insane. Do you have functioning ears? Do you even know what jazz is? You know that sort of post that belittles as it expresses disagreement with my stated opinion.

Right. Of course.

I guess I assume that most of us would not act in such a manner.

We all want constructive criticism.

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Ok, still not digging Wilkerson? Fair enough. BUT...

Before you TOTALLY write him off, check THIS baby out:

f00337w0nxs.jpg

None of the R&B "trappings" of the BN stuff. Just good solid soulful straightahead blowing.

If you don't dig THIS one, then you can safely be said to have no use for Don Wilkerson, period.

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