connoisseur series500 Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 Ok, still not digging Wilkerson? Fair enough. BUT... Before you TOTALLY write him off, check THIS baby out: None of the R&B "trappings" of the BN stuff. Just good solid soulful straightahead blowing. If you don't dig THIS one, then you can safely be said to have no use for Don Wilkerson, period. Hmm, do I dare make the investment? Cool cover. Tempting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 (edited) Ok, still not digging Wilkerson? Fair enough. BUT... Before you TOTALLY write him off, check THIS baby out: None of the R&B "trappings" of the BN stuff. Just good solid soulful straightahead blowing. If you don't dig THIS one, then you can safely be said to have no use for Don Wilkerson, period. Jim, I've been digging this CD for years. It does smoke... and I mean really smoke! Of course, I also happen to like the Blue Note material too. I happen to dig the "R&B trappings". Give me "Dem Tambourines"! Now, if you start talking about George Braith..... nah, I just can't do it. Later, Kevin Edited June 6, 2003 by Kevin Bresnahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 (edited) So if I post that I think the new Stefano di Battista is fabulous - which I do, I don't mind negative comments about the record so long as they're not something like - What, are you insane. Do you have functioning ears? Do you even know what jazz is? You know that sort of post that belittles as it expresses disagreement with my stated opinion. Stefano di Battista!!!!!! I don't think you mean that.... DO YOU?????!!!!!!!!! THAT MAKES ME MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited June 6, 2003 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 Now, if you start talking about George Braith..... nah, I just can't do it. Later, Kevin Why, because his instrument sounds like the horn of a car? Come on, that's no reason to dislike his music? I've got "Extensions" and its okay. I wouldn't sell it, but I'm not encouraged to buy any others. It's got Grant Green on there; can't remember if Big John P. is on there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pryan Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 (edited) Wow, ya go away for a few days and things go a bit nutty. That's OK, though, there's always room for a bit of nuttiness in the world, as long as no one REALLY gets hurt. But seriously, here's my take on the argument between Kevin and Chris (even though I should really shutup to avoid exacerbating the situation): Kevin has a personal connection to some "higher ups" at Blue Note and respects both Michael Cuscuna and Tom Evered. These people at BN were, most likely, involved in some shape or form in bringing Marsalis to the label and thus Kevin believes such a decision was intelligent, both on a financial and artistic basis (please Kevin, tell me if any of this is false in any way) for the company and the artist. Chris enters the fray posting his honest opinions on Wynton and his upcoming album. Kevin disagrees and things sail out of control. I think, more than anything, this has to do with BN, the record label. If Wynton had signed with Verve (now that's opening another can of worms, I know), I seriously doubt Kevin would be so defensive in his (hypothetical) response(s) to Chris. Kevin, like probably many posters here, has an emotional attachment to BN of the "good ol' days" (assuming that's the 50s and 60s, when hardbop was in its "heyday"). Wynton, in his mind, is a good player, trumpeter, etc. who plays, in his (Kevin's) own words, "good Jazz". So, to sum up, a good player like Wynton, signing a contract to a GREAT label is cause for (at the very least) cautious optimism, in Kevin's mind (again, Kevin, if I'm wrong, please correct me). This signing, coupled with the fact that Kevin personally knows those in charge at BN, caused a most defensive, albeit somewhat childish and rude response, toward Chris' comments. Edited June 9, 2003 by pryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 Wow, ya go away for a few days and things go a bit nutty. That's OK, though, there's always room for a bit of nuttiness in the world, as long as no one REALLY gets hurt. But seriously, here's my take on the argument between Kevin and Chris (even though I should really shutup to avoid exacerbating the situation): Kevin has a personal connection to some "higher ups" at Blue Note and respects both Michael Cuscuna and Tom Evered. These people at BN were, most likely, involved in some shape or form in bringing Marsalis to the label and thus Kevin believes such a decision was intelligent, both on a financial and artistic basis (please Kevin, tell me if any of this is false in any way) for the company and the artist. Chris enters the fray posting his honest opinions on Wynton and his upcoming album. Kevin disagrees and things sail out of control. I think, more than anything, this has to do with BN, the record label. If Wynton had signed with Verve (now that's opening another can of worms, I know), I seriously doubt Kevin would be so defensive in his (hypothetical) response(s) to Chris. Kevin, like probably many posters here, has an emotional attachment to BN of the "good ol' days" (assuming that's the 50s and 60s, when hardbop was in its "heyday"). Wynton, in his mind, is a good player, trumpeter, etc. who plays, in his (Kevin's) own words, "good Jazz". So, to sum up, a good player like Wynton, signing a contract to a GREAT label is cause for (at the very least) cautious optimism, in Kevin's mind (again, Kevin, if I'm wrong, please correct me). This signing, coupled with the fact that Kevin personally knows those in charge at BN, caused a most defensive, albeit somewhat childish and rude response, toward Chris' comments. Well, if that's how it reads, I guess I should have slowed down and posted my thoughts more clearly. Several things didn't come across right. First, my "connection" to Blue Note is Michael Cuscuna, who, as most of you know, works with Blue Note on a contractural basis as a producer of reissues and (on ocassion) new releases. Michael is not a full-timer. Michael has had nothing to do with Wynton Marsalis' signing with Blue Note and is not involved (that he's told me) with the upcoming recording date. I have also, by way of the Blue Note bulletin board, been able to talk on ocassion with Tom Evered. I even visited their offices two years ago at Tom's invitation. This is as far as my "connection" goes on that end. In fact, during the demise of the Blue Note board, I was reminded how tenuous my relationship was with Tom when I was unable to get any information as to why the board was "killed". Also, in case I didn't make it clear, Michael Cuscuna told me that the decision to sign Wynton Marsalis was Bruce Lundval's. Bruce was with Columbia Records when they first signed Wynton and apparently is very aware of both Wynton's "philosophies" as well as his ability to sell CDs. He was the ultimate arbiter on the signing of Wynton. I have never met Bruce Lundval. Your next statement is one I have to take issue with: "Chris enters the fray posting his honest opinions on Wynton and his upcoming album." Is this how you see Chris' attitude toward Wynton Marsalis? "Honest opinions"? As I pointed out with snippets of Chris' posts, Chris only has negative opinions about WYnton Marsalis. Negative opinions not based on listening to any of Wynton's latest recordings or going to see the man live, but because Chris has an obvious hatred for Wynton Marsalis the man. I believe "honesty" went out the window for Chris and "all things Wynton" after Burns' Jazz. Of course, Chris denies and denies and denies the hatred, all the while continuing to post negative comments and little "mud-slinging" posts whenever and wherever he can. As for other parts of your hypothesis linking all this to Blue Note, I can only say that I buy and listen to Jazz regardless of the label. I do not worship Blue Note Records. Given that many of my favorite recordings say "Blue Note" on the label, I do wish to see them continue to do well. I hope the signing of Wynton Marsalis is financially beneficial to them. I would not like to see them pay him big bucks and then flop on his artistic face. BTW, I would wish the same thing for Verve Records, Columbia Records, Milestone Records or any of today's Jazz record labels. Jazz seems to be dying off the scene (especially at the major labels) and I would not wish to see any of them fail. I would rather see more releases from all. My comments to Chris is this thread, which you now label "childish" were a long time coming. I have tried in several other threads, many which people here may not have seen because they have been other Jazz discussion boards, to ask Chris if he could "tone down" his negativity toward Wynton Marsalis and several times, I asked him why he can't just leave threads about Wynton alone. He refuses to do any such thing, which is his right. I can't stop him. I am simply exercising my right to tell him his obsession with posting negative stuff about Wynton Marsalis sucks, plain & simple. If you can come up with a way to state what I just stated in a way that's less "childish" that Chris might actually understand, go for it. In closing, I have to say that my attitude on Internet boards throughout the years has been one of fostering good will and keeping a positive focus on "all things Jazz". Back when Chris Albertson first showed up on my screen, I was pleased that someone who had first-hand knowledge of some of Jazz's greats might actually post some of this. That hope has never really panned out. Chris has become the name of a poster whom I dread to see on my screen now as I know it will likely be a negative thread. That is truly the saddest thing about this whole affair. I have always hoped for him to stop being such a naysayer but he simply appears incapable of being a positive person. I wonder what happened in his life that he comes across so bitter today... strike that... he does seem to enjoy talking about Macs! Later, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 (edited) If anyone has wondered why Bresnahan goes into frothing-at-the-mouth attack mode at the sight of one of my posts, I think the above tirade says it all. Edited June 9, 2003 by Christiern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 If anyone has wondered why Bresnahan goes into frothing-at-the-mouth attack mode at the sight of one of my posts, I think the above tirade says it all. Thank you, Chris, for getting my name right. And as for my last poast... a "tirade"?? This post is far too tame to be labeled a tirade. After all, there wasn't one expletive in the whole thing. Are you sure you're not just looking at it from a negative point of view? I find I can sometimes get the gist of a post differently if I smile a little when I read them. Think "happy thoughts" and re-read my post and then see how much of it is really a "tirade". BTW, for anyone wondering: tirade - A protracted speech usually marked by intemperate, vituperative, or harshly censorious language. A further check into this definition shows that it should include "verbal abuse" (the definition of vituperative). There is no verbal abuse in my post. There may be things in there that some don't want to believe, but it is not verbal abuse. Later, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pryan Posted June 9, 2003 Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 (edited) Your next statement is one I have to take issue with: "Chris enters the fray posting his honest opinions on Wynton and his upcoming album." Is this how you see Chris' attitude toward Wynton Marsalis? "Honest opinions"? As I pointed out with snippets of Chris' posts, Chris only has negative opinions about WYnton Marsalis. Negative opinions not based on listening to any of Wynton's latest recordings or going to see the man live, but because Chris has an obvious hatred for Wynton Marsalis the man. I believe "honesty" went out the window for Chris and "all things Wynton" after Burns' Jazz. Of course, Chris denies and denies and denies the hatred, all the while continuing to post negative comments and little "mud-slinging" posts whenever and wherever he can. As for other parts of your hypothesis linking all this to Blue Note, I can only say that I buy and listen to Jazz regardless of the label. I do not worship Blue Note Records. Given that many of my favorite recordings say "Blue Note" on the label, I do wish to see them continue to do well. I hope the signing of Wynton Marsalis is financially beneficial to them. I would not like to see them pay him big bucks and then flop on his artistic face. BTW, I would wish the same thing for Verve Records, Columbia Records, Milestone Records or any of today's Jazz record labels. Jazz seems to be dying off the scene (especially at the major labels) and I would not wish to see any of them fail. I would rather see more releases from all. My comments to Chris is this thread, which you now label "childish" were a long time coming. I have tried in several other threads, many which people here may not have seen because they have been other Jazz discussion boards, to ask Chris if he could "tone down" his negativity toward Wynton Marsalis and several times, I asked him why he can't just leave threads about Wynton alone. He refuses to do any such thing, which is his right. I can't stop him. I am simply exercising my right to tell him his obsession with posting negative stuff about Wynton Marsalis sucks, plain & simple. If you can come up with a way to state what I just stated in a way that's less "childish" that Chris might actually understand, go for it. In closing, I have to say that my attitude on Internet boards throughout the years has been one of fostering good will and keeping a positive focus on "all things Jazz". Back when Chris Albertson first showed up on my screen, I was pleased that someone who had first-hand knowledge of some of Jazz's greats might actually post some of this. That hope has never really panned out. Chris has become the name of a poster whom I dread to see on my screen now as I know it will likely be a negative thread. That is truly the saddest thing about this whole affair. I have always hoped for him to stop being such a naysayer but he simply appears incapable of being a positive person. I wonder what happened in his life that he comes across so bitter today... strike that... he does seem to enjoy talking about Macs! Later, Kevin Thanks for clearing up some of the misconceptions that I had, Kevin. That said, I think Chris has every right to post whatever opinions he may have on any subject, Wynton included. If another member went on and on about subject "x", all the time, would you react in such a manner as you have in the above postings? I seriously doubt it. Also, I don't really think Chris is "obsessed with posting negative stuff about WM", as you say. Nowhere do I recall seeing Chris starting a topic denouncing Marsalis or his philosophies or his musical output. He merely responds to certain topics, started by others on the board. Enough speaking for Chris, he's more than capable of doing that for himself. I stand by my statement that your responses were childish, or at the very least immature. I could take the time of pointing certain passages out that highlight my point, but I really would rather spend more time discussing the music. Edited June 9, 2003 by pryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 (edited) All this talk about Wynton sparked my curiosity about his music. I pulled out my copy of Hot House Flowers, which I haven't listened to in years and gave side two a spin. I have to admit that it sounded pretty good. The arrangements are interesting and the strings do seem to work, at least for me. It's a fairly impressive album for a 23 year old. Sure his playing isn't pushing up againist any boundaries or breaking new ground, however it fits very nicely within the context of the music. I'll never be a big Wynton fan (for obvious reasons) but I will listen to his next album without any preconceived notions or prejudice. Ya' just never know! Ya' know? Edited June 12, 2003 by Sundog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsound Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Maybe its like a guy that gets traded to a new team. All of a sudden he lights it up. I would think A&R work would be collaborative. Working with a new team may make a difference. I would think Blue Note would be aware of a lot of the thinking in the serious jazz community and may push him into a less overserious setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Re: Hot House Flowers - It must be noted that Marsalis is NOT responsible for the string arrangements, which are by the marvelous Bob Freedman, a veteran writer who goes back to the 1950s (not a young lion at all). And Marsalis has only ONE original tune on this album (the title track - and it's certainly not the highlight). Everything else is by the masters - Hoagy Carmichael, John Lewis, Duke Ellington, Ned Washington, et al. Not a "Pulitzer Prize winner" in the bunch. Somewhere along the line, it was decided that WM was a brilliant genius composer/arranger and we have had to endure a stream of what I consider to be third-rate derivative rehashes presented as commissioned masterpieces by the Great Composer of Our Time. (When one's contract *guarantees* and requires a commission every year or two, it doesn't seem that rare or prestigious an honor, just another excuse to have a world premiere concert - btw, never mind the fact that the Glorious Pulitzer Piece was written and performed some two years before the date of the prize timeframe.) Anyway, HHF is a nice record. But give credit where credit is due. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 I didn't mean to imply that Wynton was resonsible for the string arrangements. It just seems to me that taking the album at face value, makes for an enjoyable listen. I still do hold out a bit of hope that Wynton can surround himself with a group of musicians that can make another equally enjoyable album. That's all. That can't be a bad thing for Blue Note or jazz in general right? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonnyhill Posted June 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Maybe it was not Norah who led to the demise of the BNBB. Maybe the executives at BN thought that the negative comments about WM on the BNBB were not something that they wanted in existence during their contract negotiations with him. WM has been talking a bit about Ornette lately, who is an artist who is the antithesis of what WM stands for. I hope this signals a new direction for the WM and that he spends less time pontificating and more time playing his horn! P.S. On the radio this weekend, they played a Chico Freeman record from the early '80s with a young WM on trumpet--Smoking!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Maybe the executives at BN thought that the negative comments about WM on the BNBB were not something that they wanted in existence during their contract negotiations with him. That, IMO, is very far fetched. I think they are sufficiently intelligent to know that a jazz bulletin board without critique of WM has yet to be seen. Besides, I think Tom went bunkers before there was a negotiation with the guy. The demise is probably doe to a number of factors, including out-of-hand posting, illegal disc offerings, and some very unfortunate name-calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mnytime Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 (edited) Maybe it was not Norah who led to the demise of the BNBB. Maybe the executives at BN thought that the negative comments about WM on the BNBB were not something that they wanted in existence during their contract negotiations with him. WM has been talking a bit about Ornette lately, who is an artist who is the antithesis of what WM stands for. I hope this signals a new direction for the WM and that he spends less time pontificating and more time playing his horn! P.S. On the radio this weekend, they played a Chico Freeman record from the early '80s with a young WM on trumpet--Smoking!!!! This implies 1. That there was any competition for WM. 2. That Blue Note needed WM more than he needed Blue Note. 3. That Blue Note is the one paying him instead of WM paying them. Ok just through this one in but you get the picture on the choices WM had. It's Blue Note or starting his own indie label with his own money. This also explains WM bringing up Ornette. I will believe WM joining the 1960's never mind this century when I hear it, which I am not holding my breath on. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Blue Note record is WM does Blakey. Edited June 15, 2003 by Mnytime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 WM has been talking a bit about Ornette lately, who is an artist who is the antithesis of what WM stands for. from Down Beat, 01-2001: Gimme 5 asks a simple but difficult-to-answer question: What are your five favorite records, albums you'd need if stranded on the proverbial desert island? Wynton Marsalis: "... and, of course, Ornette Coleman's The Shape Of Jazz To Come. So much conviction and freedom." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted June 15, 2003 Report Share Posted June 15, 2003 Two cents from me are that the deciding factor the BN Board was taken down was the discussion of burning and the attitude expressed by some (Marvin prominently) about it. . . when this was conveyed bact to BN areas of the board disappeared and then the board went down. Not to my mind a coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Ok, still not digging Wilkerson? Fair enough. BUT... Before you TOTALLY write him off, check THIS baby out: None of the R&B "trappings" of the BN stuff. Just good solid soulful straightahead blowing. If you don't dig THIS one, then you can safely be said to have no use for Don Wilkerson, period. I just found "Texas Twister" on CD today, for only $6 (used), and have just spun through most of it one time. It's a DAMN good date, IMHO, and I like it quite a bit better than any of Wilkerson's own BN material. Not that his BN stuff is really all that bad, just that it doesn't keep me guessing. If anybody's on the fence about "Texas Twister", I'd say 'get it', especially if you see it used and/or at a good sale price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ariceffron Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 well i mean if wynton made "blue note worthy" releases i dont see why he shouldnt be on the label. i mean hell that would be prety cool--- we all have heard wynton play like that im sure- but if he does all that bs wyntonjazz like blood on the tracks or whathaveyou and all that that would be absoutely horrible. I'm sorry but blue note is stupid. With all the great talent they could be recording, they are doing nothing. BUt you know i really dont think its their fault. Its cause of all the corporate takeovers. If it was still a true indie it could do stuff like that. i dont know. dont get me wrong i like blue note records but i just dont know about modern day blue note. i mean, what the hell. if i was running that label we would be releasing the shit. oh my god. babyface willette reissues for everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 i mean, what the hell. if i was running that label we would be releasing the shit. oh my god. babyface willette reissues for everyone Works for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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