Blue Note signs WM

[sonnyhill]

http://www.bluenote.com/news.asp?NewsID=168

[Soul Stream]

Is that Hardbop trying to still sell us old BNBBers on Wynton? The old "sonnyhill" trick.

Edited June 3, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Guest Mnytime]

Blue Note would be stupid as hell if they gave him even a 1/25th of what he was getting from Sony. Even at a 25th, I don't see them breaking even. His record sales have been on a major downward spiral that would make Trent Reznor proud.

I can't remember the last WM release that sold more than it's previous release.

A question but would anyone outside of Hardbop call WM "One of the Great Musical artists of our time" as the announcement calls him? Especially considering his sales are non-existent and he was dumped by Sony, who don't go around dumping "One of The Great Musical Artists of our Time" if they where selling. Can anyone that is dumped by his label, that no longer sells and is considered a joke by a great many people still be considered "One Of The Great Musical Artists of Our Time" today?

It reminds me of another former Sony prima donna who still calls himself “The King of Pop” even though all his solo recordings combined are selling less than 150 CDs a week in the U.S. the last I heard.

Edited June 3, 2003 by Mnytime

[Rooster_Ties]

The only thing I cringe at the thought of more than Wynton on Blue Note, is Shrub Bush in the oval office.

Edited June 3, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Ed S]

Well, the inevitable announcement has been made. Like I said in other threads, I'll give the album a chance. I have not enjoyed any Marsalis recordings since his first few but, you never know.

I'm kind of curious about a couple of things related to the BN deal and Marsalis. Wynton was dumped by Sony ages ago and has been without a label for some time. You'd think that he'd get the drift that his sales have plummeted, that folks are enjoying his music less than ever, and that he needs to do something about it. So along comes Blue Note. You have to know that they are aware of the problems that Wynton brings with him. They know his sales have been dismal and that he is a very controversial individual. Does Blue Note give him carte blanche or do they say "Hey Wynton - here's the type of recording we're looking for."

[Guest Mnytime]

Maybe Blue Note says enough with the poor Duke imitation's, we want something completely WM. Something that sounds like it is from 2003 and not another poor mans 1930-35. Maybe there is something to the last 40+ years of jazz that you have completely avoided.

Not that I am holding my breath that Blue Note will be able to get WM out of the time warp he is stuck in.

Edited June 3, 2003 by Mnytime

[Claude]

Marsalis will drag Blue Note into bankruptcy, just wait and see.

Or worse, he will become A&R director

[John L]

It's the death knell for the label we all loved.

Marsalis will drag Blue Note into bankruptcy, just wait and see.

It's a very dark day for jazz.

Bertrand.

Are you serious, Bertrand, or at least half joking?

It this really that big a deal?

If Marsalis even did become artistic director for Blue Note, what would be the major negative changes?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

It's the death knell for the label we all loved.

Marsalis will drag Blue Note into bankruptcy, just wait and see.

It's a very dark day for jazz.

Bertrand.

Bertrand, I posted on the Blue Note board many times that I have been told that Blue Note did not "bust open the bank" for this signing. At one point, people were mentioning "a million dollars". I called up Michael & Tom and they both choked they laughed so hard. Be cool, don't worry, Blue Note isn't stupid.

And everyone, just give the disc a chance. Wait 'til it comes out and then judge. There is no need to think anything about it until it gets cut.

BTW, as I have said before, Wynton plays his ass off when you see him live. People can say he's not playing anything "original" but I can tell you, he's playing like a mofo. If he can get that down on a CD for Blue Note, like he did on the "Live at the Village Vanguard" CD set, everything will be fine. If he trys some kind of "Blood on the Fields Part II"...

Later,

Kevin

[Guest Chaney]

Does anyone seriously think that the future of jazz lies in the hands of Blue Note?

Look to the small labels and international interest in this great art form to carry the music forward.

Marsalis belongs in a museum encased in a glass display case.

[David Ayers]

Well, Blue Note managed to sell 100s of Greg Osby albums. Maybe they can bring the same flair to their promotion of Marsalis?

[jazzbo]

Count me as someone who has enjoyed a number of Marsalis albums, and not the first ones only (or even) who will wait and see what Marsalis makes for the label. Bertrand's sky is falling shtick is hilarious!

[Claude]

The interest in Wynton seems to be rather low in recent times. Check the activity in this fansite forum:

http://wyntonmarsalis.org/forum/list.php?f=2

Edited June 3, 2003 by Claude

[Dan Gould]

Right on, Lon.

Companies that sign huge pop star deals find themselves in bankrupcy or desperately selling and merging.

Some people may think so poorly of Wynton as a musician that they think this is some dark day for the label; that's equally as ludicrous as Bertrand's the-end-is-near hysteria.

[montg]

The curiosity factor alone will make this a big seller (by jazz standards). I'll preorder it.

It'll be interesting to see how Blue Note approaches this. Will WM record with his sextet? Big Band? Or will there be a lot of guest appearances by Osby, Lovano etc.

[Simon Weil]

Here's a couple of paragraphs from Lundvall:

“This marks the beginning of a vital new creative relationship between one of the great musical artists of our time and the world’s premier jazz label,” says Blue Note President Bruce Lundvall. “I believe that Wynton is on the cusp of an innovative new creative period musically. Blue Note will share a pivotal contributing role in the next phase of his already astounding career.”

...“Wynton wanted a creative home where people live for this music,” says Lundvall. “He recognized that we aspire to a high standard of excellence and that despite difficult business conditions have continued to support serious artists. Our roster today is diverse, contemporary and definitive. Our artists are defining the very future of jazz.”

Reading between the lines, it seems that WM's "innovative new creative period" is going to be part of what "defin[es] the very future of jazz.” This has been part of Wynton's sales pitch - that he's the future of Jazz - for the past 20 years and it's nice to see that he can still spin the same old line. But really, where's the evidence. 20 years and where's the evidence that his creativity even appraoches that of the great masters of the past?

None. And I wouldn't say the jury is even still out on that one.

He will probably put out some good records (for those who enjoy him). He has a lot to prove after the Sony debacle - and after Burns. But the future of Jazz, give me a break. Enough already with this waiting for Godot.

Bluenote goes backwards if it really believes in this.

Simon Weil

[Rooster_Ties]

If Marsalis even did become artistic director for Blue Note, what would be the major negative changes?

If Wynton signed all his neo-revisionists to the label, it sure would be a negative from my perspective. The character of the label would change significantly, and not in any way that I would consider to be positive. This is just my own personal opinion, but I think even just signing Wynton to Blue Note is bad news for the label, from a historical perspective...

Throughout it’s history, Blue Note, for the most part, has always been about great jazz, both medium-brow, and high-brow -- from The Three Sounds to Andrew Hill, and from Blue Mitchell to Sam Rivers --- and the label has far, far less frequently been about looking to the past to try to recreate it. And certainly Blue Note has never been about saying what is and what isn’t jazz.

Throughout his career (or at least the last 20 years of it), Wynton’s personal agenda has been all about Wynton, and all about defining what is exclusively jazz, with nary of hint of inclusiveness from the progressive or experimental side. He’s done some variously curious and/or occasionally interesting “classical”-like jazz things, and that’s fine. And his true “classical” recordings are usually quite good. But his refusal to even acknowledge the value of Ornette, or Miles after he went electric, or almost any kind of jazz/whatever synthesis, or any electric jazz, to the point of saying not only that those things aren’t jazz, but that they aren’t good music (and that they almost, by definition, can’t be good music) – is to me beyond forgiveness.

It would be one thing for him to have modeled himself after some of the earlier masters, trying to make himself into a sort of Ellington (which is what I think he’s tried to do). But to publicly only present the earlier music in a way that effectively "canonizes" it, and to specifically dis every progressive artist who’s name he’s ever mentioned – does a great disservice to the music, and to the continued development of the music. It might be one thing for him to have done that on some small level, but he's managed to crown himself "king of jazz" in the minds of some people (quite a lot of people, unfortunately) - and actions and words carry a greater responsibility when one is on that kind of playing field. Being the music director of a prestigious jazz series like the Lincoln Center thing, should require one to program great jazz from all decades and styles. But in my mind, his “world-view” of jazz, and programming has been about trying to put the music in a museum, “for future generations to know what jazz really is” in effect.

Difficult as it is to say, I do think Wynton has done some very good things for some kinds of jazz, specifically in his work in education, especially in the pre-college grade levels. But the damage he has done for some other kinds of jazz is disgusting (or at least it is to me). Worse yet, he has done harm to the music by educating the public (from his bully pulpit) more in service to his own limited view of jazz, and let’s not forget - just as much in service to his own ego and reputation as some sort of “official spokesman for jazz”.

I'll sample the man’s BN releases, and if they’re any good - I'll buy 'em (maybe he’ll surprise me). But I'm not holding my breath, and I think his potential to change the label in ways many of us don’t like, is far worse than any threat Norah's success might have for changing the label. (And I’m no huge Norah fan – she’s a good singer with a good CD, and I'm glad for her success, on Blue Note - or on any label. OK, well, maybe not on Narada )

Not sure how to wrap this up, other than to say that Wynton on Blue Note feels like heresy to me.

Edited June 3, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Claude]

Great post, Rooster. I fully agree.

[John L]

Maybe I am missing something, but who are the top creative jazz artists on Blue Note today who would get the axe if Marsalis had his way?

You say that Blue Note is about Andrew Hill and Sam Rivers. But I don't see either of them making too many records on Blue Note lately, bar the exceptional guest appearances with Osby and Moran.

As far as I am concerned, they days of Blue Note's prime significance for new jazz have been over for a while.

[Joe G]

You made some good points Rooster, but I'd like to mention that there are some fine musicians asociated with Wynton's LCO. Ryan Kiser, Wycliffe Gordon, Herlin Reily, Walter Blanding, Rodney Whitaker, Peter Martin, and more, have all made interesting and pretty far reaching albums in recent years, mixing it up with players not "in the stable". Any one of these cats would be a fine addition to the BN roster, Rooster.

[Dave James]

Count me among those who find WM to be an interesting player. I've often wondered if you could separate the politician from the musician, would people feel differently about him and about his music.

My collection is very light on Wynton. I have one of the Standard Time albums and the Village Vanguard set. Have never felt like I needed more. The V.V. set is most likely as definitive a look at him and his art as will ever be put on record.

Was wondering if anyone saw the PBS program over the weekend that featured Wynton's band and daddy Ellis playing the music of James Black. I must say if you like jazz, you have to have enjoyed that set. I'd buy a CD of that music in a heartbeat. I'd never heard of Black and a search on the internet turns up nothing. Would like to hear more. This was some serious s**t!

Up over and out.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Blue Note is not "leading-edge Jazz" today.

Blue Note's current roster is filled with mostly "straight-down-the-middle" artists.

Blue Note would never sign any of the players "on the fringe" playing truly free Jazz.

Blue Note is the label of Norah Jones.

All of these statements add up to Wynton Marsalis being a perfect fit for this label. They seem to like the style of Jazz he's known for.

BTW, I am far, far more upset that they've used the "Blue Note" label for smooth Jazz shit. Say what you want about Wynton's "retro-playing". It'll never be compared to Everette Harp or Richard Eliot or (gak, gak, gak, gak) Najee.

Why all this uproar over Blue Note signing a true straight-ahead player like Marsalis and ignoring the true bastardization of the trademark: Smooth Jazz, Hip Hop, Trance, Lounge and Grammy-Award-winning-Pop... all showing up with "Blue Note" stuck on them.

Face it: the "Blue Note" label we all talk about is D E A D. It died back in 1968 when Francis Wolff left. It isn't going to be and hasn't been the same since.

Later,

Kevin

[Rooster_Ties]

Maybe I am missing something, but who are the top creative jazz artists on Blue Note today who would get the axe if Marsalis had his way?

Well, Osby and Moran are the prime examples I see. Also MMW. Or how about Erik Truffaz?? Or Tim Hagans?? There’s also probably a couple others I’m forgetting.

Also, let’s remember how Osby started on Blue Note. It's not that Osby's current music is quite as offensive to Wynton (at least as compared with Osby's CD's in the early 90's), but it's that the next Osby will never be given a chance on the label. And really, it’s not like Osby’s or Moran’s current music is particularly “good” in Wynton’s eyes, at least based on Wynton’s expressed opinions over the last 10 and 20 years.

There aren't a lot of examples right now, because there aren't as many progressive artists on Blue Note now, but really - there aren't a ton of Blue Note artists now, in general, times being what they are (economically speaking).

But think of all the classic Blue Note albums that don't get the Wynton stamp of approval. Based on everything I've ever heard the man say (or play), there are easily 30-40 Blue Note albums from the mid-to-late 60's that just aren't jazz to him. Maybe not if you pinned him down, one on one, and talked to him without a video-camera or tape-recorder . But Wynton's public persona is all about making anything progressive persona non grata.

“Mother Ship”

“The Complete ‘IS’ Sessions”

almost anything Andrew Hill recorded

ditto Sam Rivers

most of the rest of Larry Young’s output

Grachan Moncur

Ornette

Anything even slightly electronic, or vaguely “electronica”-like

[John L]

OK, I understand you a bit better now. But I don't really agree.

The records that you list below are reissues. Like Kevin says, Blue Note no longer seems interested in recording that kind of music.

I am not aware of all of Wynton's opinions, but some of your interpretations strike me as suspicious. For example, I have always thought that Wynton had great admiration for Ornette Coleman. Where did you see a negative comment from Wynton about Ornette?

How do you know Wynton's opinion of what Osby and Moran are doing now? Did you see him quoted?

Edited June 3, 2003 by John L

[Rooster_Ties]

For example, I have always thought that Wynton had great admiration for Ornette Coleman. Where did you see a negative comment from Wynton about Ornette?

Ok, I stand totally corrected when it comes to Wynton and Ornette. I just did a search and found this...

Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra with Wynton Marsalis

The Music of Ornette Coleman

with Special Guest Dewey Redman

Thursday & Saturday, February 19 & 21, 2004, 8pm

Alice Tully Hall

The Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra with Wynton Marsalis celebrates avant-garde forefather Ornette Coleman, exploring seminal works of this downhome, groundbreaking composer and instrumentalist. Coleman sideman, the masterful Dewey Redman makes a special appearance at this highly anticipated event.

And admitedly, some of what I'm saying is based (probably in great part) on what I've read others say about Wynton. Not just any "others", but people who's opinions I generally respect. And I'm sure I don't have quite all my facts straight, as I normally don't follow Wynton at all - cuz he's not at all my cup of tea.

I don't specifically know what WM's opinions of Osby and Moran are, and I am making some assumptions based on what exposure I have seen to Wynton (which is unfortunately (it seems like to me anyway) on nearly every jazz documentary made in the U.S. in the last 10 years).

Also, I might add that perhaps (and this is pure speculation here, full disclosure on my part), but is it possible that Ornette is only now getting any due from Wynton, now that Ornette's music is old enough to finally be "canonized"?? (And I'm at least pretty sure I heard or read somthing about Wynton dissing Don Cherry at one point, several years ago.)