Big Al

BFT #21, disc one - Discussion

171 posts in this topic

You should hear the names my computer yells at me when I tell it, "Come on, just one more S.A.S. BFT!" :g

:lol:

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TRACK TWELVE - Might be one of those Riddle MPS sides, I dunno. No matter. "Easy Listening" music of a very high calliber. Plenty attention to detail in the scoring, and lots of little nuances that tell me that the writer was really approaching it as music and not just a paycheck. Really sweet lead trumpet playing, too. This cut is just plain good. I'll take it, thanks.

Nowhere in the album does it say who the trumpet player is. Maybe Jim R knows?

I don't, and I can't find any specifics anywhere (only partial personnel is given... guitars, basses, percussion). I tried a few Googs™, and did find some related info that might provide clues. Freddie Hubbard's Columbia LP, "The Love Connection" (circa 1979) was arranged and conducted by Claus Ogerman (the Jobim session in question was released in 1980, and was also recorded in NYC).

Personnel included: Al Jarreau--Vocals; Buddy Collette--Flute, Saxophone, Sax (Tenor); Tom Scott--Flute, Saxophone, Sax (Tenor); Chester Thompson--Drums; Rubens Bassini--Percussion; Oscar Brashear--Trumpet; Stanley Clarke--Bass; Chick Corea--Keyboards; Chuck Domanico--Bass; Joe Farrell--Flute, Saxophone, Sax (Tenor); Chuck Findley--Trumpet; Richard Hyde--Trombone; Guy Lumia--Concert Master; Steve Madaio--Trumpet; Phillip Ranelin--Trombone; Jumma Santos--Percussion; Phil Teele--Trombone; Ernie Watts--Flute, Saxophone, Sax (Tenor); Snooky Young--Trumpet; Dick Hyde--Trombone; Chuck Damonico--Bass; Phil Renelin--Trombone.

I dunno... just some raw data. B-)

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So this is Ogerman? Definitely in the Riddle lineage, and a great writer his own damn self. This sounds more like Riddle than Ogerman, but I could see it being the younger man. Great writing "in the genre" whoever it is.

The 3 of those 4 trumpeters that I know (Steve Madaio is a big ? to me) are superb lead players. Brashear, btw, played the trumpet breaks on Van McCoy's "The Hustle", which, if you're into that kind of thing, are marvels of cheese geing beautiful in spite, or becaus of, itse;g.

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So this is Ogerman? Definitely in the Riddle lineage, and a great writer his own damn self. This sounds more like Riddle than Ogerman, but I could see it being the younger man. Great writing "in the genre" whoever it is.

'Tis Claus. There's some beautiful variety on this album, BTW. I'm pretty sure you would dig a lot of it, perhaps even more than the tune Al selected (although that's got to be somewhat of a classic in it's own right- having been used as a theme on Brazilian TV).

Brashear, btw, played the trumpet breaks on Van McCoy's "The Hustle"...

I just read somewhere that the rhythm on this track was considered "a hustle" in some corners (which seems to seriously conflict with Mike's earlier statement that this is a Brazilian "marcha" (I think at least one person referred to it as bossa, which was a little weird!). I'm not going to claim to know the truth... I tend to not be crazy about certain rhythms from the past... some just don't stand the test of time for me, personally. I never got into disco (although I certainly heard the hit "the hustle" too many times for my own good), so I'm not familiar with the nomenclature. Mike knows his rhythms, though, so I tend to think he was right. At any rate, the rhythm on this track is one of the few things on the album that I'm not crazy about. Track 17 is another, but I don't want to upset Al, so we won't go there, yet.

...which, if you're into that kind of thing, are marvels of cheese geing beautiful in spite, or becaus of, itse;g.

So, I'm not the only one who sometimes shifts their fingers to the right while typimh. :g;)

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(I think at least one person referred to it as bossa, which was a little weird!).

guilty as charged! :g

Okay, pal, time for the sentencing phase! :rsly:

:P

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So, I'm not the only one who sometimes shifts their fingers to the right while typimh. :g;)

You use your fingers?

Maybe that's my problem...

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At any rate, the rhythm on this track is one of the few things on the album that I'm not crazy about. Track 17 is another, but I don't want to upset Al, so we won't go there, yet.

Now now, be nice!!! ;):g:P

It's almost as if Jobim & Ogerman are saying, "We dare you to like this!"

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(I think at least one person referred to it as bossa, which was a little weird!).

guilty as charged! :g

Okay, pal, time for the sentencing phase! :rsly:

:P

... not a visit from this oger-man!!!

05_1.jpg

so why is bossa so weird if it's a Jobim session? any link to this cut yet??

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so why is bossa so weird if it's a Jobim session? any link to this cut yet??

Jobim wasn't just a bossa nova composer / bossa nova artist. He studied classical music, and various forms of samba were part of his vocabulary. He was a successful composer before bossa nova was born. This recording was made more than a decade after the popularity of bossa nova had waned in Brazil, and there were other musical elements being employed by Jobim, especially by the time Jobim and Ogerman made this album. It's made up largely of his classic compositions (some of which were bossa nova tunes), but they're updated in various ways ("wave" is almost unrecognizeable, but spectacular in its new form, IMO).

This particular composition began life as part of the score of "Orfeu da Conceiçao" (Black Orpheus) from 1956- the first song that resulted from Jobim's partnership with Vinicius de Moraes. It was very popular, and seen as a very "modern" samba-cançao, but bossa nova hadn't been invented yet. Joao Gilberto hadn't arrived yet.

Track 12

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Well, fuck me naked and take a picture for your momma!

I also have that album. "Borrowed" it from a cat I was on the road with. The guy left abruptly, left no forwarding address and didn't ask for it back before he left, so it's mine until further notice, right? Yeah, that's the ticket...

Problem was, it was in somewhat, uh, "distressed" condition, so I've never really listened to it other than a few times over the last 20 years. Definitely not enough to "know" anything off of it. But now...

Just in case, btw, what's the statute of limitations for somebody finding you and asking for thier stuff back?

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Sorry I'm so late to the party.

Had to have an emergency root canal done and it's still giving me problems, so my attention span has been shorter than normal.

Al, thanks man, this disc was fun stuff, I enjoyed it very much.

1. It Had to Be You - Definitely some Warner Brothers Looney Tunes stuff. B-)

2. Don't know the tune or the band, but a real nice sound going on here.

3. A real sweet arrangement and performed beautifully. Not sure who all is playing here though. Adams or Mulligan? Byrd? A toned down Sonny Red? Strozier?

Great sound quality. I look forward to the answer.

4. I should shoot myself for no idea on this. It sounds so familiar, but I've got no clue. Something by Charlie Barnet maybe?????

5. :tup

This one I got!

Kind Dukish/Rockin' In Rhythm

Duke abnd his bad ass band doing a magnificent job. This one if from "Piano in the Background"

6. Sure seems like Count Basie to me, take a wild guess and say this is with Prez.

7. Also sounds like Basie. Maybe something by Wess or Paul Quinichette??

8. A foot mover for sure. Don't know it. Costa? Castro? Guaraldi?

9. When first hearing this track, I was instantly reminded of track 1 from BFT#4.

Not the same tune of course, but some similar lines, at least for my ears.

This be track #4 from this one!

10. Like it very much, can't place it, but I'd say that is Kenny Dorham on trumpet.

11. Don't know. Flute could be Spaulding, Moody, Richardson, oh hell I just don't know.

12. Nice piece of easy listening. Like it very much.

13. I never can get these organ lead groups down.

14. ????

15. This one I've heard maybe six or seven times on the XM radio real jazz channel, sadly I can't remember who the hell it is.

16. Very Greeeezy, but no idea.

17. Very familiar sounds to it. I'd say McLean and Morgan are on,I'm not so sure from there. I was thinking Sonny Clark, but don't think so. My guess this is a BN date that everyone has or should have. Unfortunately, I do not. Hopefully I can change that if it can still be found.

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I just read somewhere that the rhythm on this track was considered "a hustle" in some corners (which seems to seriously conflict with Mike's earlier statement that this is a Brazilian "marcha" (I think at least one person referred to it as bossa, which was a little weird!). I'm not going to claim to know the truth... I tend to not be crazy about certain rhythms from the past... some just don't stand the test of time for me, personally. I never got into disco (although I certainly heard the hit "the hustle" too many times for my own good), so I'm not familiar with the nomenclature. Mike knows his rhythms, though, so I tend to think he was right. At any rate, the rhythm on this track is one of the few things on the album that I'm not crazy about.

Too bad you're not crazy about a marcha - which it definitely is, take any textbook on Brazilian rhythm and compare.

It is unfair to limit Brazilian music only to bossa nova, samba, samba cancao and the like - although I noticed jazz lovers and players alike often have problems to relate to more defined rhythms like the baiao, xaxado, frevo, marcha, partido alto, you name it ... same goes for many Cuban rhythms. It takes a different concept to improvise on them, which you have to study.

Whoever described that rhythm as a "hustle" certainly was into one to survive!

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I also have that album. "Borrowed" it from a cat I was on the road with. The guy left abruptly, left no forwarding address and didn't ask for it back before he left, so it's mine until further notice, right? Yeah, that's the ticket...

Problem was, it was in somewhat, uh, "distressed" condition, so I've never really listened to it other than a few times over the last 20 years. Definitely not enough to "know" anything off of it. But now...

Just in case, btw, what's the statute of limitations for somebody finding you and asking for thier stuff back?

:g

Hey, his name wasn't "J.J.", was it? "J.J. Johnson"? ;) I'm recalling a post on the old JCS board by the well-known Brazilian jazz critic Jose Domingos Raffaelli. He pointed out that at a press conference while on a tour of Brazil, J.J. made a point of asking if anyone could supply him with a copy of that album, because he had literally worn his copy out.

I don't know about the statute of limitations, but you also just reminded me of the time I did a "temporary" trade with a guy... he loaned me his vintage King Super 20 tenor, :wub: ... and I loaned him a Guild M-65 "freshman" (a 3/4 scale hollowbody electric guitar), which was basically a "student" instrument. I didn't see him again for about 10 years... at which point he asked for his axe back. :rmad::rolleyes: Oh well, I didn't use it that much anyway... I had that '34 Conn at the time. :wub: ... which I sold too cheap. :(

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Thanks for all the BFTs Big Al! Better late than never with responses, I hope!

1. A fun 44 seconds. Looney Toons?

2. Hamp? Milt?

3. Laid back, smooth the positive way smooth was intended as an adjective for jazz. No guess.

4. Reminds me of McShann or Basie tracks I have on a compilation in terms of era, but I can't identify anyone and wouldn't guess either of those names here. Love the hand claps.

5. At the outset Gene Harris or Junior Mance or even Les McCann were popping up in my head, and by the middle I was totally lost. Cool!

6. Earl Hines?

7. Coleman Hawkins or Lester Young, with Diz or Fats Navarro--those are the names I'm starting to associate with this sound--but I couldn't make a sure call at this point.

8. Almost too happy for my tastes...yo no se.

9. Horace Silver - Pursuit Of The 27th Man

10. Coltrane?

11. Yusef?

12. Jobim?

13. JB

14. Howard Roberts?

15. Brother Jack McDuff - Down Home Style

16. Grant Green? I'm pretty sure I have this but I just can't spot it.

17. Is this from the Moncur Select? This is on something I just got, I love the melody and recognize it immediately. Damn, I'm stuck.

Now, on to read the responses! Thanks again Big Al!

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4. ZZ Top? :g I dunno...

:g

At least I didn't guess Joe Sample for number 12! :w;)

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4. ZZ Top?  :g  I dunno...

:g

At least I didn't guess Joe Sample for number 12! :w;)

:lol::lol::lol:

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So finally it's time for the royal poster's uninformed mumblings... First just let me say thank you to Big Al! I enjoyed the disc quite some!

#2 - This band has a latin feel going on all throughout. Nice doorbells, very nice alto. Vibist the leader here? Wild guess (I haven't heard any of his discs yet except for the Verve LPR): Terry Gibbs?

#3 - Very nice arrangement here! The melody sounds familiar but I can't pin it. Nicehow the trumpetand also go in and out of the ensemble. Love the smooth trombone sound a lot. Alto is ok, too, but at this point the rhythm section starts to bother me, with that old-school Freddie Green-styled guitar strumming, and mostly bothering: the drummer doing these generic fills, repetitive & boring, way too traditional to fit in with the alto. Trumpet is nice, but the rhythm section doesn't stop bothering me till it's over...

#4 - More relaxed ensemble, big band this time. Like the trombone writing following the opening. Very nice preaching tenor, sounds like he could do the screaming and shouting of an Illinois Jacquet if he wasn't having a lazy day... really nice!

Very nice drummer here (sigh of relief!). SOme nice writing touches, good piano bit. Like this one!

#5 - Duke? Terrific piano player he was. This is "Kinda Dukish/Rockin' in Rhythm" from PIANO IN THE BACKGROUND. A great album, one of my favourite Ellingtons, in fact! Sam Woodyard makes the difference! What a great big band drummer he was!

#6 - Basie territory here... is this from Paul Quinichette's Emarcy/VEE disc? Don't have it here to check, but could be. Know the tune, but again can't name it. Freddie Green here, right in place...

#7 - Another one that sounds familiar from the outset... Still Basie-like stuff, another Prez-influenced tenor, playing an awesome solo, very quick. Harry Edison on trumpet?

Now what about the piano? Is that a bad Basie-imitator? Sounds like Basie on a Tom Waits "piano has been drinking"-trip... Somehow this whole track irritates me... guess if I wasn't too lazy and the weekend almost over, I'd have to search through all my Basie discs...

#8 - This isn't Don Rubén, is it? Nice line up that is, piano, bass, and latin rhythm section!

#9 - This goes down a bit too easy for me, though I do like the doorbellist and the drummer. The tune again sounds slightly familiar...

#10 - Great tenor. Out of Rollins a bit? Nice writing too. This is the most laid-back BFT so far, love this cut!

#11 - Nice one! Nice arrangement with flute on top and barisax on the low end!

#12 - Not my favorite cut... There's a touch of that song from "Un homme et une femme" in there somewhere.

#13 - Again, not a favorite. Don't like this organist too much, and the guitar sounds a bit, well, non-descript? Don't like his sound, somehow.

Maybe that's just the mood I'm in, though, and the fact that I had quite some Lou Donaldson (with Lonnie Smith and Idris Muhammad, the late sixties stuff) this weekend.

#14 - Like this one better, nice tenor!

#15 - This one's a bit more on teh easy side, sounds slightly familiar...

#16 - Now this one definitely sounds familiar. Like it a lot. Guess that is one I should have known? Too lazy to find out..

#17 - A very nice closer! Sounds like some early sixties BN recording. Billy Higgins on drums? A Duke Pearson arranged affair? I suppose I have this on some BN disc or in some Mosaic...

Enjoyed this disc a lot, Al, many thanks again!

ubu

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#15 - This one's a bit more on teh easy side, sounds slightly familiar...

it should, you bought the disk last month if I remember correctly... :P;)

(okay, it was in november...)

Edited by couw

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#15 - This one's a bit more on teh easy side, sounds slightly familiar...

it should, you bought the disk last month if I remember correctly... :P;)

(okay, it was in november...)

Well, I did badly anyway... I have the Fantasy twofer with that Cliff Jordan/KD track, and I have Along Came John... and I suppose some more, but I'm offline again in a few minutes if I can't get the f###ing dial-up working rigth, had to re-start my computer to even post my guesses... holy crap! Not my day, not at all.

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hey, at least you got to listen to some decent music!

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hey, at least you got to listen to some decent music!

Awwww shucks...... :wub:

And since he had such a bad day, I'll forgive ubu his comments about Freddie Green & Philly Joe on track 3! :P:g

But his comments about the piano player on track 7, well....... no accounting for taste! :P:g:P:g

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Hey Al, of course that Bethlehem session is on one of my discs, too, and while I love the horns, I have never really warmed to the whole thing, thus never got to know it too well anyway. (I've got it on the strangely titled complete Bethlehem Coltrane release, which mostly consists of the Art Blakey's Bethlehem sessions.)

Now Philly Joe... what was his problem? Was he stoned too much to play on, or why is Ed Thigpen on the rest of the date? Also who did the arranging there, because that IS nice! At least I saw that I'm not alone, with Sangrey finding Philly Joe boring, too...

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Re track 3: The arrangements were by one Harry Tubbs and are very well done throughout - anyone here knows some more about him?

The original liner says the A sections of the theme are thought of as "latin" - and the bass line indeed sounds like it was written out and is unlike anything I heard Pettiford play in similar contexts. Imagine a typical latin cymbal pattern - it would be much too busy and obscure the very interesting bass pattern. Maybe they tried different things and decided to have Philly Joe play it straight instead. On the whole it is okay to these ears but a little stiff, maybe because he felt restricted by the arrangement. And note this is the only track Freddie Green plays on - what can a drummer play underneath his 4-to-the-bar rhythm guitar? (Is there any other recording of Freddie Greene and Philly Joe Jones in the rhythm section?) Any latin pattern would clash. The drum part as heard is not perfect, but probably the best solution.

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