Who you used to NOT get, but now do

[slide_advantage_redoux]

Okay, I start.

When I was in college in the 70s, I thought Roswell Rudd was a poser of a trombonist. I actually enjoyed watching a copy of his "Flexible Flyer" get smashed against the wall by another trombonist who as well thought he was lame.

That other trombone player friend of mine is one of the busiest cats in the NY Scene today, and he still doesn't get RR, but I came around. Now I have nearly everything he has recorded, including ONE of his "Eli's Chosen 6" dixeiland sides from his Yale days. My favorite? Impossible to say, but School Days and the NYAQ discs are at the top of my list.

Go Roswell. You da man.

[jazzbo]

Lee Wiley. I just didn't hear what was "great" about her. Dr. J tried to enlighten me. . . and eventually did. Thanks Tony!

Andrew Hill. I kept trying to like "Point of Departure." Never happened. Branched out to the other dates; "Black Fire" and "Smoke Stack" hooked me, made me get his work. STILL don't like POD. . . .

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Andrew Hill. I kept trying to like "Point of Departure." Never happened. Branched out to the other dates; "Black Fire" and "Smoke Stack" hooked me, made me get his work. STILL don't like POD. . . .

Exactly!! I could have written this word for word.

[Shawn]

Sonny Rollins & Wayne Shorter. Took me a while to warm up to these guys. I never dis-liked them, but in the early days of my listening, both of them came off as being rather cold. It took ALOT of listening, but finally, inch by inch, I began to "get" what they were doing and now I find it hard to believe that I ever had difficulty with them.

I also have to give a big THANKS to Jim Sangrey for helping my understanding along...through our conversations I was able to find the fresh ears that I needed to start grasping what I was hearing. I could sit around and listen to Jim talk about Sonny Rollins all night....and I have on numerous occasions!

[Morganized]

This may sound a little strange but I would say for me it has been Dexter Gordon. I never really understood why some considered him the master that he is. I have been listening to a lot of his Steeplechase recordings lately and finally appreciate his unbelievabe talent and energy. Up until recently it was like, Dexter, oh yea, some nice ballads, yada, yada, yada.

Not anymore..... what a player. He has trememdous control of his horn, he works quotes in almost effortlessly.... great style and presence.

I finally get it. A true giant!

[MartyJazz]

Andrew Hill.  I kept trying to like "Point of Departure."  Never happened.  Branched out to the other dates; "Black Fire" and "Smoke Stack" hooked me, made me get his work.  STILL don't like POD. . . .      

Exactly!! I could have written this word for word.

Couldn't disagree with the two of you more. POINT OF DEPARTURE is a great, great album, easily Andrew Hill's best of which I too very much like BLACK FIRE, JUDGMENT, ANDREW!!!! (when will that ever get released on single CD?).

The Hill Blue Note that still strikes me as the furthest out he did and one that I've never been able to get into is COMPULSION.

Now, for years I couldn't get into Coltrane's OM album on Impulse. And then one day recently, I put on the headsets and listened and discovered that I still can't get into it.

[gdogus]

Andrew Hill.  I kept trying to like "Point of Departure."  Never happened.  Branched out to the other dates; "Black Fire" and "Smoke Stack" hooked me, made me get his work.  STILL don't like POD. . . .      

Exactly!! I could have written this word for word.

Couldn't disagree with the two of you more. POINT OF DEPARTURE is a great, great album, easily Andrew Hill's best of which I too very much like BLACK FIRE, JUDGMENT, ANDREW!!!!

You disagree with their assertions that they don't get it? So...what does that mean? They do get it, and just don't know it...?

It's a personal-subjective-reaction thread, my man...nothing to agree or disagree with here.

Edited December 24, 2004 by gdogus

[Spontooneous]

Rooster Tom's gonna hurt me for this...

Joe Henderson. His solos on the Blue Note classics struck me as abrupt, abrasive and short-breathed when I first heard them. Only later did I come to the heart and the humor.

(P.S.: "Point of Departure" isn't a very good way to sell Andrew Hill. "Black Fire" and "Shades" are the ones that got me.)

Edited December 24, 2004 by Spontooneous

[Jazzmoose]

Jazz.

Okay; I'll come up with a few more detailed things after Christmas, okay? The family beckons...

[pryan]

Art Farmer. He's a mofo, but I didn't realize it a few years back. Not as "dazzling" as Clifford or Lee, but a very lyrical, pensive musician.

[John L]

Art Pepper. I had so many chances to see him with great bands in the 70s and early 80s, but I never did. I would look at who is playing at the Keystone Korner. Art Pepper? Well, I guess that I will go to some other club tonight or just stay home...

What an idiot I was!!!!

[AllenLowe]

Bobby Short - and, after seeing the film Festival Express, Janis Joplin (used to hate her singing) -

[RDK]

Braxton. Found access through his "standards" and "piano quartet" discs, but am now branching out to his more typical quartet stuff.

[JSngry]

Bobby Short

Still working on that one myself. I think I get it but just don't like it, but maybe not..

Any help?

[kh1958]

Louis Armstrong. Growing up and seeing him on TV in the 1960s, he seemed a mere entertainer. It wasn't until much later when I heard Tight Like That that I understood why the jazz greats that I did get all said he was great.

[EKE BBB]

Free jazz.

[Daniel Andresen]

Since my musical (or Jazzical) tastes grew chrolologically (Dixie and Swing, than Be Bop, Cool, Hard Bop etc.) I used NOT to get a lot of guys who are among my favorites now.

The Strongest examples are Miles Davis electrical period and Sun Ra.

[B. Goren.]

Free jazz.

Me too.

[Joe]

Took me some time to learn to appreciate Bird. I think this has largely to do with my having heard too many Bird-derived players before I ever got back to the source. Hence I initially heard what sounded -- but could not be taken to be -- cliches in his playing. Also, i sometimes found it difficult to hear him as an integral part of his ensembles, i.e., as anything other than a virtuoso soloist who habitually left his accompanists in the dust. So, other players ruined Bird somewhat for me. At first.

I wonder -- have others here had this kind of experience with Parker or other widely imitated players?

[AllenLowe]

JSNGRY:

RE- Bobby Short - he drove me a little crazy at first - but as I did more research into the hisotry of American song, he began to sound much more within the tradition to me - not that that necessarily is a good thing, but I began to acquire a taste for his style, which fell anywhere from vaudeville to early pop - I found his means of expression to be quite deep and satisfyingly broad in its references - hope this helps -

[pryan]

Took me some time to learn to appreciate Bird. I think this has largely to do with my having heard too many Bird-derived players before I ever got back to the source. Hence I initially heard what sounded -- but could not be taken to be -- cliches in his playing. Also, i sometimes found it difficult to hear him as an integral part of his ensembles, i.e., as anything other than a virtuoso soloist who habitually left his accompanists in the dust. So, other players ruined Bird somewhat for me. At first.

I wonder -- have others here had this kind of experience with Parker or other widely imitated players?

Yes, definitely. In fact, I still have very few of Bird's recordings. I'm not sure if the reason(s) for having not much Bird are because of hearing the other alto saxophonists before Bird (or near the same time), but perhaps he somehow, strangely, got lost in the shuffle. I can sure notice and appreciate his genius now, especially in contexts with lesser-caliber musicians (and with other great musicians), but my hesitation at acquiring more of his music remains, albeit subconsciously.

[JSngry]

JSNGRY:

RE- Bobby Short - he drove me a little crazy at first - but as I did more research into the hisotry of American song, he began to sound much more within the tradition to me - not that that necessarily is a good thing, but I began to acquire a taste for his style, which fell anywhere from vaudeville to early pop - I found his means of expression to be quite deep and satisfyingly broad in its references - hope this helps -

It does. I'm just not at all into the "cabaret" vibe, or at least the trappings of it. If I could hear Short outside of that, I might dig his thing more.

But maybe that's like wanting to hear Gene Ammons w/o the neighborhood bar vibe.

Problems, problems, problems...

[Larry Kart]

I'm not anti-cabaret pure and simple but find both Short and Mabel Mercer pretty hard to take. It's not just that neither of them has much voice (neither does Blossom Dearie or lots of others who are more or less in that bag) but also, at least for me, that the voices they do have are so obtrusively hoarse and grating. It's like there's almost nothing musical going on, or that can go on, when they open their mouths -- most of the time I'm thinking that they should just talk and forget about hitting or sustaining any notes.

Also, while I can see that part of Short is coming out of a mostly forgotten vaudeville/early Broadway bag, I can't believe that at any time in his adult life he was among the better representatives of that tradition. For instance, if you can, check out the way Jack Gilford sings the part of Alexander Throttlebottom on the mid-1980s CBS recording of the Gershwins "Of Thee I Sing." It's not quite the same thing as Short's world but close, and Gilford puts over that material with a zest that lets you know that he knows what it means to win over a real audience -- not the pre-sold crowd that Short typically faces.

[Larry Kart]

A tough one for me for a long time was Benny Goodman -- as a clarinetist, not a bandleader. I think now that it was because I'd heard so many neo-Goodman guys playing that repertoire, particularly in person, that I couldn't hear what those licks sounded like when they were fresh, real, and fully inhabited. Also, I probably was handicapped some because, of "star" clarinetists of that era, I preferred Artie Shaw if I had to choose. The RCA Goodman small groups box from a few years ago turned the light on.

[Chuck Nessa]

Re: Short, Mercer, etc.

During the holiday break I had the chance to read Larry's book in my mother-in-law's bathroom - AND the piece titled "Cabaret Music" speaks of an alternate universe.

Hoity toity in the toilet.