AmirBagachelles Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Buyers, don't leave feedback for sellers until they leave it for you. Buyers, by paying you have normally completed your obligations in the initial transaction first, before the seller has done so. There should be nothing more for the buyer to perform to get initial feedback. If you don't get feedback, don't leave positive feedback for the seller, unless you are feeling magnanimous. More frequently, I see messages from sellers urging me to leave feedback, and then they will. That's BS. Don't fall for that. The seller is essentially saying, "if you're a good customer as evidenced by making us look good, we'll recognize you as a good customer." Once I pay, particularly on time, I am a good customer and due feedback, and any other "arrangement" potentially inhibits what I can say about your experience. (I just noticed a recent new member here on the board is possibly a guy who ripped me off on Ebay about two years ago. I think Ebay is enormously biased to sellers' advantages, and buyers need support.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig23 Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 On the flip side, some feel that feedback should be left when the transaction is complete to the buyer’s satisfaction. That wouldn’t occur until the item is received and the buyer lets the seller know everthing is okay – either through feedback or an email. As an eBay seller, I usually don’t leave feedback until I hear from the buyer that everything is okay. It’s not a holding them hostage type of thing, its just that I want to make the transaction right if there is some sort of error. Just as the idea that not all sellers are honest, not all buyers are honest. Anyone who has worked retail can attest to the fact that many customers are assholes (and vice versa). If a seller leaves feedback too early (i.e. the transaction is not complete), the buyer can claim some type of fraud. Of the 7 years I’ve sold stuff on eBay I’ve had less than a handful of buyers who have (in all probability) lied about the condition of an item I sold them, so maybe I’m just a little paranoid, but it seems better to be safe than sorry. As a seller, one shouldn’t be soliciting feedback from his/her buyers, as it is totally voluntary. I personally wouldn’t leave feedback for a seller who asks for it. But as a seller, I usually don’t leave feedback until the buyer has done so. Feedback can’t be erased, so I feel its better to wait and make sure everything is okay before leaving it. I see it from a buyer’s standpoint as well (because I’ve bought a lot on ebay over the years). Having sold things, though, I see it from both sides. If a seller keeps in contact throughout the transaction (confirming payment, letting the buyer know the item is on the way, and possibly a follow-up email in a week or so asking if the item was received) then neither party would fear negative feedback. This is an interesting topic because there is a “Seller’s Central” board on eBay in which seller’s are constantly complaining that eBay is biased toward buyers. I guess if both buyers and sellers feel as though eBay is biased toward the other then it’s a good thing. Some policies must favor buyers while other policies favor sellers - I think that is definitely the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Since my mom wouldn't touch a computer, I bought a couple of antiques for her this holiday season and remarked to her that I had not yet received feedback from the sellers, despite the fact that I was exceptionally prompt in communicating with and paying them. Then, when I heard from my mother that the items were received and she was happy with them, I placed feedback. Immediately (as in, within 24 hours) I received positive feedback in return. This is BULLSHIT! It is obvious to me that those sellers were witholding feedback pending a positive report from me, when I had completed the terms of the transaction with great speed and efficiency. They are doing this for one reason only: Reserving the right to leave tit-for-tat negative feedback, had I been moved to leave negative feedback myself. IT IS CRAP and I hate sellers who do it. The fact is, my feedback rating would be unblemished if not for tit-for-tat negatives I got from sellers who had no right or reason to make the claims that they did. I understand that sellers want to be sure that buyers are satisfied, but be honest: If someone communicated speedily and paid immediately, what right do you have to leave negative feedback? Granted, a buyer who is not pleased should contact the seller first, as ebay tells you, but for me these are the issues: For sellers: Did the buyer communicate promptly? Did he pay promptly? If that is the case, and you believe in the products you sold, then you ought to leave positive feedback immediately. For buyers: Did the seller communicate quickly? Was his shipping price fair? Did he ship promptly? Was the item as described? Would you buy from him again? If the answers are positive, than positive feeedback should be given. period. And as far as witholding feedback goes pending positive feedback: its BULLSHIT and is totally wrong. The fact is, ebay gives you the opportunity to respond to negative feedback. Earned or not earned, that is the only way to respond to negative comments-by telling your side of the story. NOT in placing retaliatory negative feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 I agree with Amir. Once the buyer has paid you in a timely manner....you should take the first step and leave them positive feedback. Upon receipt of payment, I always tell the buyer that I'll be sure to go ahead & leave feedback and that I hope they'll reciprocate when they have a spare moment to do so down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 When I was selling a lot on ebay, it took my Mom, or me 2-3 hours a week to get caught up with leaving feedback. When My Mom couldn't work at the Computer anymore, it became too much for me to do alone, so I went to automated feedback...as soon as someone left it for me, It was left for them....not the way I would like it to be, but the way it is now. And there are many, many sellers on ebay that sell a hell of a lot more than I ever did at my peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 (edited) As a seller I have recently changed by procedure, and it's working great for me. I wait until I hear from buyer that they are satisfied, either in form of FB or e-mail, before leaving FB. Too many examples of weird buyers. Last one was someone who sent me a check after I told them it would have to clear first and to use Paypal or MO instead. Got an e-mail after a week threatening NFB because they had not received item. I've also had a few buyers refuse to insure their item. I've seen to many buyers blame the seller for damaged goods, though insurance was offered. How about the buyers that leave NFB because they do not like the music on a CD/LP they bought? LMAO!! Edited January 1, 2005 by wolff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig23 Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 If someone communicated speedily and paid immediately, what right do you have to leave negative feedback? That would be a screwed up thing to do. But that was never my point. wolff: "How about the buyers that leave NFB because they do not like the music on a CD/LP they bought?" And don't think this doesn't happen. You can believe in the product all you want but when you get the buyer (or seller) from hell, I'd much rather wait and give a refund and have everyone be (somewhat) satisfied than an unjustified negative. I'm really not saying it is write or wrong to wait and give feedback. It is one way of going about doing business on eBay. I happen to use it (through automated feedback or when I get an email from the buyer saying he/she is satisfied). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Here is the 2004 survey all about the eBay feedback system. Pretty interesting results. LINK LINK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 How about the buyers that leave NFB because they do not like the music on a CD/LP they bought? LMAO!! Do they say they hated the CD? Or do they make up lies about your service as a seller? Seems to me, if someone posts negative feedback like that, no one is going to give a shit about their negative statement because no one in their right mind regards it as legitimate. yeah, you get a (-1) in your "score", but so what? The fact remains that negative feedback can be responded to. That's all you need to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 If someone communicated speedily and paid immediately, what right do you have to leave negative feedback? That would be a screwed up thing to do. But that was never my point. MY point is, that is buyers are judged on whether they communicate well and pay promptly. That done, you *owe* them positive feedback. If they are dumb-asses who make excuses to leave negative feedback, then respond to it. If their negative feedback is ridiculous, other potential buyers will see it as such. Let me give you a hypothetical (not so hypothetical because its how I got my first bit of negative feedback): You sell an album; you don't take paypal and want a check or money order. Money order is mailed within two days of the auction ending. Its received less than a week after the auction ended. You take TWO weeks to ship the LP. I post negative feedback because the whole idea of sending a money order is to get the merchandise quickly. There's no excuse for taking that long, and I don't care how much business you do. What do you do? Do you post tit-for-tat negative feedback, when I have done nothing but alert the ebay community to pathetic customer service? Remember, there's nothing to be "made good" on here. You think its fine to accept a money order and not ship the item for two weeks. I think its total bullshit, and post negative feedback. What do you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 How about the buyers that leave NFB because they do not like the music on a CD/LP they bought? LMAO!! Do they say they hated the CD? Or do they make up lies about your service as a seller? Seems to me, if someone posts negative feedback like that, no one is going to give a shit about their negative statement because no one in their right mind regards it as legitimate. yeah, you get a (-1) in your "score", but so what? The fact remains that negative feedback can be responded to. That's all you need to do. I do not want an unearned NFB, even if I can respond to it and even if people do not give a shit. Seems like waiting until buyer is satisfied before posting FB would make them think twice and be honest and fair. All I know is it's working and I felt forced to go this way do to occasional dishonest/petty buyers. Just because a buyer pays does not mean the transaction is complete to everyone's satisfaction. In addition, if I've dealt with a buyer before and found him/her to be honest/fair I have no problem with leaving FB when I receive payment. Also, there are buyers that do not leave FB for any of their transactions. I have no idea what's going on unless they leave FB or e-mail me once they receive item. I especially wait to leave FB when a buyer has his item shipped surface to Singapore without insuring it. I've even had one buyer send me payment that was $1 short, adding that my $3 charge for media shipping was too high. Needless to say, I sent his payment back. I just love eBay!! Always good for a laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Frankly, I don't think you guys have the slightest idea what feedback is for anyway. It's not a thank you, a pat on the back, etc. It's a comment for your (possible) future trading partners. A few things to keep in mind: 1. The opening remarks of the thread, the old bit about once a buyer pays they should get feedback, is laughable. If you haven't had the lovely experience of having a buyer pay and then get absolutely gonzo on you, that's great for you, but it happens. Ebay suggests (and since feedback is NOT a requirement, suggest is all they can do) that feedback be left when the deal is completed. It ain't completed at a different time for the buyer and for the seller, people... 2. Dan, just because something is obvious to you doesn't mean it's the truth; odds are your sellers used an automatic feedback system like Berigan mentions. If this really bugs you, then do the research on your sellers before you buy; it doesn't take that much work to check out their 'feedback left' and compare it to the feedback they receive. More work than it's worth for me, because as a buyer, feedback doesn't mean a damned thing to me... 3. Note to Wolff: I'd be one of those buyers. Insurance is your look out, not the buyers. Your job as a seller is to deliver the merchandise to me in the condition stated. My job is to deliver the correct payment to you. Why the heck should I pay for the insurance? Are you going to ship the merchandise anyway if my check gets lost in the mail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 3. Note to Wolff: I'd be one of those buyers. Insurance is your look out, not the buyers. Your job as a seller is to deliver the merchandise to me in the condition stated. My job is to deliver the correct payment to you. Why the heck should I pay for the insurance? Are you going to ship the merchandise anyway if my check gets lost in the mail? Most buyers are glad to purchase insurance. I can require buyer to buy insurance. I can make disclaier that if you do not get item insured you are SOL if it gets lost/damaged. As a buyer I have most items insured and am glad to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted January 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 (edited) Oh we have the slightest idea, and more. Once we pay, we are done, we have satisfied our obligation. We want the positive feedback for the fast payment. That a seller might withhold feedback because his customer might "go gonzo" is pathetic, and exactly the problem. Too f*cking bad, maybe the seller didn't meet his end of the deal, like shipping verrrry slowllly a beat up Jackie McLean two-fer that he said was NM. You might want to know everything is OK, that is honorable, but don't withhold feedback until you see a little something for you posted by the buyer. It's commonplace now, and it's dishonorable. Don't give positive feedback to sellers who want more than your prompt payment, who demand to see your feedback. Edited January 2, 2005 by AmirBagachelles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Too many weird buyers out there. I'm so glad I changed my policy. Ebay has never ran smoother for me. Once the buyer is satisfied with the transaction, I consider the transaction complete. This usually comes in the form of an e-mail or a PFB from resposible and honorable buyers. I could care less if a buyer leaves FB, just so long as know they are happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man with the Golden Arm Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 good points all. in addition be aware of the feedback tally of who you are dealing with. i recently sold some toys and left positives for all immediately after payments. one buyer had 3 stars and i left glowing remarks as a newbie gesture. the impatient POS did not receive the item within six days, those being the two weeks prior to christmas, and left negative feedback before even contacting me regarding the status of shipment. my words via e-mail to her were not kind and frankly would make the political forums blush. i hope the item never arrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig23 Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 If someone communicated speedily and paid immediately, what right do you have to leave negative feedback? That would be a screwed up thing to do. But that was never my point. MY point is, that is buyers are judged on whether they communicate well and pay promptly. That done, you *owe* them positive feedback. If they are dumb-asses who make excuses to leave negative feedback, then respond to it. If their negative feedback is ridiculous, other potential buyers will see it as such. Let me give you a hypothetical (not so hypothetical because its how I got my first bit of negative feedback): You sell an album; you don't take paypal and want a check or money order. Money order is mailed within two days of the auction ending. Its received less than a week after the auction ended. You take TWO weeks to ship the LP. I post negative feedback because the whole idea of sending a money order is to get the merchandise quickly. There's no excuse for taking that long, and I don't care how much business you do. What do you do? Do you post tit-for-tat negative feedback, when I have done nothing but alert the ebay community to pathetic customer service? Remember, there's nothing to be "made good" on here. You think its fine to accept a money order and not ship the item for two weeks. I think its total bullshit, and post negative feedback. What do you do? I'm not sure if your asking me to put myself in that seller's shoes and what I would do if I was that seller and you gave me negative feedback. That seller sounds like a jerk. That is not how I do business. At the least, if for some reason it took me two weeks to mail a package, I would try to contact you and see if you would prefer a refund. Either way, I would feel really bad and apologize for the delay. As a buyer I would have done what you did and left the seller a neutral or negative feedback. It would really have depended on whether or not he/she kept in contact with me throughout the two weeks it took to ship the LP. Honest mistakes happen (not to mention family emergencies, etc). I have left both neutral and negative feedback as a buyer and, "luckily," have never received a retaliatory negative. If I did, however, oh well. It would have been undeserved, but that's life. I've been lucky in my time at eBay and have never received a negative, but I've never deserved one and, as I said before, I've been lucky enough not to come across an asshole seller or buyer who leaves it just to be mean. I've heard way too many stories of that happening, however (the post before mine is one good example). As a buyer I don't like it when the seller leaves me feedback first. How does the seller know I am satisfied? Is the case of the CD broken because the seller failed to pack it sufficiently? Did the seller send the wrong item? As a buyer, I would rather make sure the item is everything it is described to be and, if not, give the seller a chance to make it right. If he/she does I'll give a positive. If not, a negative. But, again, eBay has changed so much over the 7 years I've been using it. It isn't the "community" it once was. And, whether your dealing with hundreds of people a day (as one would in a brick and mortar store) or millions on eBay, I think its better to be safe than sorry and wait until the transaction is complete rather than part way done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 my words via e-mail to her were not kind and frankly would make the political forums blush. i hope the item never arrived. Good heavens, Golden Arm!! All you guys and your lurid tales of pitched battles with buyers & sellers...and here I've never had a single problem in some 600 transactions. Guess I'm just blessed with an inibility to ruffle feathers or rub people the wrong way. .......well, there is that one buyer from Seattle that I've had a problem or two with over the years: "....weizle, or whatever your fucking name is....you are a real sleaze. ...... ..... You are a vile and intolerant scum. $#@!&%$@#$@^$@$%#$@^%#%^@#@^%#*^%$@*&^%!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Out2Lunch Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 [ "....weizle, or whatever your fucking name is....you are a real sleaze. ...... ..... You are a vile and intolerant scum. $#@!&%$@#$@^$@$%#$@^%#%^@#@^%#*^%$@*&^%!! [ Is that the guy who worked for Hallmark?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 I've been selling a lot lately, mostly excess cds or things I probably won't listen to anymore, and other non-music items. As a seller, it is my job to post feedback before the seller although life being what it is sometimes this happens in reverse. However, I would never tell a buyer that I'll post it if you post it first. That's not the way it works. I've had sellers tell that to me and I won't leave them feedback. Besides letting other people know how a buyer pays or communicates, feedback also lets a buyer know when you shipped an item since I think most sellers usually post when they ship. That is what I try to do. I also use feedback to let other know if this person paid quickly for if you're a seller that's what you want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Ebay should just dump their damn feedback system... it's broken. It's supposed to be used by the buyer to assess the seller. Instead, because of the current feedback "hostage situation", no one can leave negative feedback. It's tit-for-tat all around. In most transactions, I've stopped using feedback altogether. My feedback really doesn't mean anything to most eBay sellers... the majority are decent sellers. Good sellers with a lot of positives don't get a lot of people scrolling through their feedback looking for the negative comments. They scroll right over all the "Great to do business with" comments. One more positive is pointless. Buyers look for the negatives. For the record, I stopped right after a couple of auctions where the seller "demanded" positive feedback. Neither transaction was smooth enough on their end for anything other than "neutral" but their E-mail made it clear to me what would happen after my feedback. As for negative feedback, I have never been able to do it. Ever. In one case, I would have loved to leave a pile of dog doo doo in the guy's feedback because of his selling tactics, but he held back on his seller's feedback so I knew he was just daring me to nail him. Instead, I left neutral feedback and the guy still used the feedback area for a nasty reply (with a positive feedback... weird). I am certain that my neutral rating saved me from a negative feedback. Why should that scumbag get away with this? Because ebay let's this happen, people will continue to be screwed by this guy. Later, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Most buyers are glad to purchase insurance. I can require buyer to buy insurance. I can make disclaier that if you do not get item insured you are SOL if it gets lost/damaged. As a buyer I have most items insured and am glad to pay for it. Oh, I agree. If I sell (haven't on eBay but have on other auction sites more focused in merchandise), I add the insurance into my base price and they get it whether they want it or not. As for the disclaimer...good luck, if part of your objective is to avoid negative feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Oh we have the slightest idea, and more. Once we pay, we are done, we have satisfied our obligation. We want the positive feedback for the fast payment. That a seller might withhold feedback because his customer might "go gonzo" is pathetic, and exactly the problem. Too f*cking bad, maybe the seller didn't meet his end of the deal, like shipping verrrry slowllly a beat up Jackie McLean two-fer that he said was NM. You might want to know everything is OK, that is honorable, but don't withhold feedback until you see a little something for you posted by the buyer. It's commonplace now, and it's dishonorable. Don't give positive feedback to sellers who want more than your prompt payment, who demand to see your feedback. Well, obviously you're not reading the other responses on the thread as two very real possibilities have been mentioned already. The seller is not always evil, the buyer is not always innocent. What do you do when you ship your nice Jackie Mac LP to a buyer, and he returns it because of an obvious scratch. A scratch that wasn't there when you shipped it. Hmm...well, he paid on time, so obviously you've already given him positive feedback... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 Kevin, the only reason sellers can get away with 'feedback blackmail' is because buyers have an over inflated sense of feedback's importance. Unless you're using the same ID to buy and sell (in which case I would recommend STOP and start a second ID), there's no point in putting up with it. What the heck does a buyer need feedback for? I've only left negative feedback once, but I left it with no concern as to what I'd receive in return. I'll admit, watching my feedback number rise was interesting until it hit 30 or so, but after that I lost interest. Feedback is of no use to a buyer at all, unless you run into one of those sellers who will only sell to buyers with a certain feedback. I have refused to leave feedback at all before, in the case of a seller who wrote "Our feedback policy is to leave the same feedback we receive". Well, if they aren't taking it seriously, why should I help them out? The service was great, the product was flawless, but don't threaten me, you know? Bottom line: if you're a buyer, who gives a shit about feedback? Get over the obsession, people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted January 3, 2005 Report Share Posted January 3, 2005 As for the disclaimer...good luck, if part of your objective is to avoid negative feedback. Yes, you are probably right. Usually, a suggestion in an e-mail does the trick in a nice way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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