Rooster_Ties Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 (edited) I was just listening to "Understanding" John Patton tonight (for the first time in quite a while), along with Patton's "Boogaloo" - which both feature some fairly 'out' (at times) tenor playing from Harold Alexander. But all the while, the groove is a sold as a rock, and deep as deep can be. Man, sometimes there's nothin' better than music that grooves so hard you can practically taste it, while at the same time - there's somethin' on top of the groove that's really freaked out. OR, there are some pretty damn complicated metrical things I know I've heard here and there (but I can't think of specifically at the moment), which are somehow also as greasy as hell, but are still a lot more complicated (rhythmically) than your typical grease. ( Or maybe both - at the same time!!! Don't I wish!! ) Actually, I included it in the title of this thread, but I'm not sure if I know of any truely 'mixed-meter' grease and/or boogaloo recordings - but if there are any, I sure want to know about 'em!!! What are your favorite Avant-Garde jazz recordings that are also really damn high on the grease and/or boogaloo factor(s)??? (Or conversely, what are your favorite grease/boogaloo albums that aren't afraid to go 'out' at times, while not loosing the groove???) [*]Surely everything John Patton recorded on BN after about 1967 qualifies, no?? (I've never heard "That Certain Feeling", so I can't comment on that one - can someone else??) [*]And every album Larry Young led on BN qualities, to one degree or another (and most of them to a high degree). [*]It's not exactly greasy, but Tyrone Washington's lone BN album "Natural Essence" surely qualifies on the Boogaloo side, as does Washington's even more obscure "Roots" from the early 70's. There are others, but I'm just not thinking of them at the moment. Oh, well, a bunch of MMW qualifies, for sure!!! And as a side-topic, can we also discuss why "Avant-Garde/'Out' Music" and "Grease/Boogaloo/Groove" go so well together!!!! Edited June 5, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 John Manning does some well-pitched and well-placed squeals on Reaben Wilson's BLUE MODE, one of the greeeeeeaziest slabs o' soul I enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 'Mama Too Tight' on the Impulse album of the same title by Archie Shepp (he was 'avant-garde at the time') is real greasy music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 I doubt "Understanding" could be topped when it comes to groove and freaked-out sax skating over it all. Patton and Hugh Walker make that shit swing (and that's HARD to do without a guitar player along for the ride,--- Patton did it better than anyone IMHO.) This record sets the bar for this kind of thing. 30 years ahead of it's time...groove and avant meet. That Certain Feeling is a whole different ball of wax. More open-ended. Beautiful... Boogaloo is a gem. His playing is downright some of his best on record. And George Brown may have been Patton's perfect drummer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 Theme de Yoyo by the Art Ensemble of Chicago has to get the award from me! I'm not sure if it's what we're after here, but I love the way George Braith makes playful mayhem all the way through 'Blue John'. He's pretty 'out', especially by the standards of organ records at the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 I might add that in the recent poll here on this board, I picked Patton's "Boogaloo" as my favorite Patton album (as did many!!!) - so strong is my belief that "groove" + "out" = "bliss". Then last night, listening to "Understanding" again, I wondered if it wasn't my favorite Patton - hard to pick which one!! Harold Alexander was a mighty damn interesting player, and it's a shame he wasn't recorded more often. (I suspect when Jim get's to this thread, he'll heap some praise on Alexander as well - as well he should!) And I agree -- Braith's contribution on "Blue John", especially for it's time (as pointed out above), is definitely a precursor to the whole "groove+out" thing. I haven't heard any of Patton's more recent work (of the last 20 years), but I've been meanin' to get Patton's "Minor Swing" with John Zorn (one of these days when I've got some more $cratch for such things). I also thought it was a nice touch that BN got Zorn to write the liner notes for "Boogaloo". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 (edited) . I haven't heard any of Patton's more recent work (of the last 20 years), but I've been meanin' to get Patton's "Minor Swing" with John Zorn (one of these days I was lucky enough to find a new copy of this disc for $12 in a store in Providence a few years back. I really enjoy it. If you are a serious fan of Patton's you will really dig it. back to the original subject: check out Luther Thomas' Funky Donkey on Atavistic's Unheard Music Series. This one definitely has the funky grease that you are looking for and is definitely a lot more "out" than the BN Rare Grooves mentioned below. Edited June 5, 2003 by John B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 (edited) I agree, Minor Swing is well worth picking up, try "Blue Planet Man" for more Zorn and Patton. Edited June 5, 2003 by JohnS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted June 5, 2003 Report Share Posted June 5, 2003 I haven't heard any of the later period Larry Young or Big John Patton, so I can't really add anything to this thread other than: I love a lot of avant-garde/free jazz from the era and I love most of the greazy organ music from these two that I have heard. My imagination runs wild. One day this stuff will be available to the common man. I do own Minor Swing and Blue Mode and Les Stances a Sophie and I think they are all great in their own way. Blue Mode is downright Fonky. Minor Swing can seem a little contrived to me at times, but I love the concept. It definitely has its moments! Kenny Wolleson is baaaaaaaaad. For that matter, I love Tommy Derrick's sound on Blue Mode also! Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 Dave Douglas' "Witness" group live (with Speed, ts & cl, and Jamie Saft & Craig Taborn on Fender & Wurlitzer) was great, too. Then - maybe where one doesn't expect this, but another proof of avant & grease fitting tight and well - on the Wildflower sessions (5LPs, now 3CDs on KnitClassics), there's some very groovy stuff, too, with freak saxophone etc. Then the very first Kirk record (56 for Bethlehem) might be some sort of a precurson, though he was mainly in R'n'B at that time, but somehow I hear some connections. Don't know if this fits your category, though. ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 "Blow me some Trane, Brother", calls The Godfather. Robert McCollough is not up to THAT task, but what he delivers instead sets the standard for this kind of thing in my opinion. Reissued on and if you don't have it, well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clunky Posted June 6, 2003 Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 Boogaloo must be JP's best BN issue. Pity about the terrible title - any one buying blind would have very low expectations on the basis of the title alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyhersom Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 David Murray - Shakill's Warrior McCoy Tyner - Walk Spirit, Talk Spirit from Enlightenment Lester Bowie - For Fela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Boogaloo must be JP's best BN issue. Pity about the terrible title - any one buying blind would have very low expectations on the basis of the title alone. I have to agree. This may be perhaps the best soloing Patton does on any of his recordings. Not to say the overall greatness of the record itself. "Boogaloo" is about appropriate of title as "Accent On The Blues." To think this was not released at the time must have been a real mental blow to Patton. I think at on time or another, I had talked to John about most every session he was on, sans this one. We never talked about "Boogaloo" for some reason, although it was always high on my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Now that is the truth! "Super Bad" is some serious JB. As Millie Jackson used to say on that TV commercial for the funk compilation "Super Bad," (which is actually not to be confused with the JB masterpiece that Jim S is talking about): "Pick up Super Bad. It's p-p-p-p-p ch-ch-ch-ch-ch baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!" Anybody remember that commercial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 I am listening to Cannonball's "74 Miles Away" right now, which fits both categories -- it's in 7/4, and there's a healthy dose of avant-gardisms in both Cannonball and Nat's solos. Then Zawinul does that tambourine-on-piano thing, which sounds pretty weird. And it grooves like crazy. (The crowd seems to think so too.) This is the kind of stuff that makes me completely understand why Zawinul thinks Cannonball never got his due. In fact, I would love it if Joe dropped the electricity for a while and put together a group to play some of this material. Maybe with a front-line of Gary Bartz (who seems to be a logical next step from Cannonball's playing during this period) and maybe Tom Harrell. And I'm not sure who should play in the rhythm section, but they've got to swing and groove at the same time. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 How is the rest of teh Lester Bowie album on which "For Fela appears? - African Children Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 (edited) And check out the track "Tech Ritter and the Megabytes" on this brand new release... So hip it hurts! PI RECORDINGS Edited August 26, 2003 by Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeform83 Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 This is such a great thread... With the recently released RVG of Kirk's Work (Prestige, 61), we might consider adding that album as a kind of predecessor to avant-grease. Admittedly, it falls in the early 60s commercial soul-jazz bag. But I don't think you can have Roland Kirk switching instruments mid-song, or playing multiple horns at once, without some idiosyncratic variation on the tradition. His humming/vocalizations during his flute solo on "Funk Underneath" are discussed in the liner notes in terms of "what appears to be a Kirk duet." In fact, this particular sound reminded me of the Big John Patton tracks from Understanding and Boogaloo where Harold Alexander plays flute. It may not be Larry Young circa 1967, but this is one of the most purely entertaining organ dates I have heard so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 What time is it?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 ...all together now...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 So as not to answer my own question - Funky Donkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted June 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 So as not to answer my own question - Funky Donkey. A-farkin'-men to to THAT!! That first "Funky Donkey" album is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was thinking of when I started this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 "Blow me some Trane, Brother", calls The Godfather. Robert McCollough is not up to THAT task, but what he delivers instead sets the standard for this kind of thing in my opinion. Reissued on and if you don't have it, well... I've only got the 3 part 45 of that. I assumed that the sax was played by Pee Wee Ellis. No sleeve notes on 45s, unfortunately. Learn summat every day. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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