Groove Holmes

[j lee]

As I'm listening to a great live set of Holmes playing in Seattle, I think, with Joe Dukes on drums, some of his remarks bring up the point that he wasn't always welcome to play in certain clubs, and perhaps didn't get the same chances of recording that many less-talented organists got.

So, at the risk of bringing up any sore memories, does anyone know the real story? Did he cross some mobbed-up club owner somewhere? It's true there's just not very much on record of his that really shows his abilities, as demonstrated in at least this live boot (made with Holmes's permission, I should add). To say that's too bad is really a huge understatement -- WTF didn't Prestige record him more, anyway? He was probably as big a hit-maker as anyone else they were recording on the organ at the time, and certainly had the promise of continuing to do so, a la "Misty" and all that.

Sad stuff -- I could listen to him all day, but there's more than a little rawness in my own emotions as I consider what he may have been up against himself.

[Dan Gould]

As I'm listening to a great live set of Holmes playing in Seattle, I think, with Joe Dukes on drums, some of his remarks bring up the point that he wasn't always welcome to play in certain clubs, and perhaps didn't get the same chances of recording that many less-talented organists got.

So, at the risk of bringing up any sore memories, does anyone know the real story?  Did he cross some mobbed-up club owner somewhere?  It's true there's just not very much on record of his that really shows his abilities, as demonstrated in at least this live boot (made with Holmes's permission, I should add).  To say that's too bad is really a huge understatement -- WTF didn't Prestige record him more, anyway?  He was probably as big a hit-maker as anyone else they were recording on the organ at the time, and certainly had the promise of continuing to do so, a la "Misty" and all that.

Sad stuff -- I could listen to him all day, but there's more than a little rawness in my own emotions as I consider what he may have been up against himself.

According to AMG, he recorded 19 times in the 1960s, including seven times before Misty got him some attention, so I really don't see how his opportunities were so limited. When was this boot made? Was it before Misty jump-started his career?

It seems an odd thing for Holmes to be saying, unless he is referring simply to some specific clubs where he was blackballed or burned his bridges. But I would think that post-Misty, he had plenty of work, and he recorded pretty regularly for Pacific Jazz before Misty was his first Prestige recording.

I'd be really curious to know when this recording was made.

Edited January 30, 2005 by Dan Gould

[j lee]

The recording was made in 1982. It's hosted with Groove's permission at http://organfreak.tripod.com//newestsnds.html. The playing is extraordinary -- well beyond anything I've heard on ANY of his records, in terms of of his stretching out and ebulliance. Somewhat like JOS's "Groovin' at Small's Paradise," mutatis mutandis.

On one of his announcements he says something like "It's good to be playing up here. I got blocked out of a lot of jobs, a lot of clubs, but I'm finally moving." (I can't remember exactly his words). Also, "Right now I can't find no cash at all -- it's like finding gold if I get a dollar," but that's hardly a situation unique to Groove, especially for that time, I imagine (although maybe a tad surprising, given that he earned his reputation as one of the ONLY masters of the instrument).

Even if he did record a number of things -- including some sideman dates not listed in AMG -- I suppose it seems like not enough to me, even though a lot of those recordings are really classic.

Edited January 30, 2005 by j lee

[Dan Gould]

Thanks for the clarification. Obviously he's talking about his career from the 70s on, when organs didn't have their appeal that they did in the 60s heyday, so its unfortunate, but surely he did record a lot before then.

[Dan Gould]

And thanks for the link. Contrary to what the guy says, I had no trouble downloading the tunes and saving them. Unfortunately real audio won't burn into CD format and sound right, but now I can hear the music without depending on the connection and the buffering.

[JSngry]

Groove came back to record some things for Muse in the 1970s(?), but yeah, he seems to have been shut out overall. Whenever this happens to a player who once had the kind of profile that he once did, there's usually a story of some sort, and often enough there's more than one side to it, none of them pretty. But I've not heard anything specific about this case.

[Soul Stream]

I think get "shut out" meant a lot of things for famous jazz organists in 1982.... Dr. Lonnie Smith was I think playing piano in lounges in Hawaii about that time. McDuff continued to play chitlin' circuit clubs for not much prestige or bread. John Patton was religated to playing Newark, New Jersey at a place called Sparky J's. with Eddie Gladden and Jimmy Ponder. Jimmy Smith had shut his dinner club and was the only guy doing much of anything in the 80's.

We forget, until the organ revival of the 90's when Lou Donaldson brought Dr. Lonnie Smith with him....there had NEVER even been an organ IN the Village Vanguard!

So for Groove to be disenchanted in 1982 makes a lot of sense. Organs were getting "shut out" everywhere (and still do). Not a legitimate "jazz" instrument for high dollar clubs back then, and jazz clubs were becoming extinct all over the country. It's a shame. Man, those guys paid dues on the organ that no one ever will again.

[JSngry]

Didn't catch that those comments were made in 1982 (my bad - literacy is a beautiful thing. I should try it sometimes!). That makes a lot more sense, then.

BTW - anybody interested in the Dark Ages of Organ Jazz are referred to a late-70s article in the short-lived but highly impressive JAZZ magazine that was written right in the middle of it, and which gives a contemporaneous (and depressing) account of how bad things were at the time for all things B-3.

Edited January 30, 2005 by JSngry

[7/4]

We forget, until the organ revival of the 90's when Lou Donaldson brought Dr. Lonnie Smith with him....there had NEVER even been an organ IN the Village Vanguard!

How ya gonna get it down the stairs Bucky?

[Soul Stream]

We forget, until the organ revival of the 90's when Lou Donaldson brought Dr. Lonnie Smith with him....there had NEVER even been an organ IN the Village Vanguard!

How ya gonna get it down the stairs Bucky?

Lonnie told me that the cartage guys have to turn it sideways to get it in there.

[Soul Stream]

Didn't catch that those comments were made in 1982 (my bad - literacy is a beautiful thing. I should try it sometimes!). That makes a lot more sense, then.

BTW - anybody interested in the Dark Ages of Organ Jazz are referred to a late-70s article in the short-lived but highly impressive JAZZ magazine that was written right in the middle of it, and which gives a contemporaneous (and depressing) account of how bad things were at the time for all things B-3.

Anyway you could scan that Jim or find a link to it?

[JSngry]

I don't have a scanner, Mike, but PM me w/your address and I'll send you a xerox of it, ok?

Assuming I can find it in my closet, which is always a crapshoot...

[Jim Alfredson]

I don't have a scanner, Mike, but PM me w/your address and I'll send you a xerox of it, ok?

Assuming I can find it in my closet, which is always a crapshoot...

I'd be interested in reading it, too and I'll even type it up for the forum.

My address in on the homepage.

[Soul Stream]

I don't have a scanner, Mike, but PM me w/your address and I'll send you a xerox of it, ok?

Assuming I can find it in my closet, which is always a crapshoot...

I'd be interested in reading it, too and I'll even type it up for the forum.

My address in on the homepage.

Jim S., if you just want to send it to Jim A., I'll just read it when he types it up for the forum.... No biggie... thanks again for the offer.

[JSngry]

Considering that B&W photocpying is dirt cheap, and that it'll only take two 37cent stamps to get two copies in the mail, I'll send you both one.

[marcello]

You must realize that the outlets for organ groups dried up in the 70's. The audience, untill the 90's ,as was rightly stated above, were in the Black neighborhoods, more often than not. Those clubs went away because of economics, crime and the loss of a younger Black audience to more commercial music.

Hearing him live, Groove Holmes was the very best that I saw here in Rochester ( a town that was a very good home to many organ groups ) because of his overall muscianship and lack of shucking and jiving for the audience, which is a addiction to a lot of B-3 players, then and now.

Joe Dukes! Yea!

[JSngry]

You must realize that the outlets for organ groups dried up in the 70's. The audience, untill the 90's ,as was rightly stated above, were in the Black neighborhoods, more often than not. Those clubs went away because of economics, crime and the loss of a younger Black audience to more commercial music.

The same can be said of many other types of jazz clubs as well. But many organ rooms hung on a little longer, because the genre was not afraid to incorporate elements of funk.

[Soul Stream]

You must realize that the outlets for organ groups dried up in the 70's. The audience, untill the 90's ,as was rightly stated above, were in the Black neighborhoods, more often than not. Those clubs went away because of economics, crime and the loss of a younger Black audience to more commercial music.

Hearing him live, Groove Holmes was the very best that I saw here in Rochester ( a town that was a very good home to many organ groups ) because of his overall muscianship and lack of shucking and jiving for the audience, which is a addiction to a lot of B-3 players, then and now.

Joe Dukes! Yea!

Wish you could elaborate on your organ room days. What else about Groove can you recall? Another other names we'd know? Every see Lou Donaldson back then?

[marcello]

Well, Soul Stream, I'll try before going to work:

As I said, Groove Holmes I liked because he played interesting music. By that I mean he played music of the day ( and the blues, of course ) and didn't pander too much to the crowd with effects. He played nice modern changes and had a way of making long lines interesting and "grooving" at the same time.

Charles Earland, I liked also, but he REALLY had a crowd pleaseing bent so much that it could be a turn-off for me. I remember always seeing him with either a quartet ir quintet ( a guitar and tenor ). That said, he had a great rapport with the audience.

Jimmy McGriff played here a lot also. I mentioned before of a Quartet that Buddy Rich had with him that played for a week here. He also seemed always to come with a quartet. He always impressed me and put on a organized set.

Jimmy Smith I only saw once but he played his ass off and, if I remember right, had something wrong with his hand or arm and played mostly with one hand. One of a kind!

Lonnie Smith I saw really often. He lived in Buffalo and used to come here so often he may have had one of several 'sisters" that he lived with here. Small, skinny with conked staight hair, he was a favorite with the women who used to flaunt themselves in front of him. He played quite often at the clubhouse ( which was open to the public ) of the Knights of Pythias called The Pythodd Club, where many bands from NYC used to play including Roland Kirk, Art Blakey, Johnny Lytell etc. and was in the oldest Black neighborhood of the city. Lonnie appeared often with local players, if he was here for more than a week. He could play a whole set of ballads very softly with a lot of color and power. He would make the organ whisper like you would into a lover's ear. The ladies loved it! I saw him last Summer and he had the same old schtick when you shook hand with him. He would hold onto your hand, look you in the eye and say" You owe me money! I KNOW you owe me money!"

I almost forgot Jack Mc Duff. He always had Joe Dukes with him on drums. Have you ever heard 'Rock Candy"? That's the way I remember him!

There were also, of course, many local player with Tenor /Organ groups to hear. It was cheaper than getting together a quartet. White and Black groups. Hell, Doug Duke had a club here! One of the pioneers. At his club he had a lift that the organ sat on that came up from the basement. So the lihts would go down, the organ sounds would come from below, vibrating the floor ( It was a small, narrow club ), and it would rise up in volume with Duke on the organ through the floor! Show Business!

[j lee]

Thanks Marcello, for those anecdotes -- it's great to hear recollections that Western NY (at least Buffalo-Rochester) was really prime territory for organ playing back in the day, not that I was around here when it went down.

For what it's worth, I got the idea for this thread when a spin-off from another one from a while back ("The Joy of Knowing the Chords") was suggested, thinking of these two comments by:

organfreak:

"While extremely bitter about his feeling that he had been denied the same opportunities as Jimmy Smith, Groove was one of the sweetest ppl who ever lived, and was totally generous in letting me record, no questions asked."

BruceW:

"We all know Groove got blacklisted for awhile, but does anybody know what actually happened to cause that drastic action???? How long did it actually last????"

Edited January 31, 2005 by j lee

[Soul Stream]

Well, Soul Stream, I'll try before going to work:

As I said, Groove Holmes I liked because he played interesting music. By that I mean he played music of the day ( and the blues, of course ) and didn't pander too much to the crowd with effects. He played nice modern changes and had a way of making long lines interesting and "grooving" at the same time.

Charles Earland, I liked also, but he REALLY had a crowd pleaseing bent so much that it could be a turn-off for me. I remember always seeing him with either a quartet ir quintet ( a guitar and tenor ). That said, he had a great rapport with the audience.

Jimmy McGriff played here a lot also. I mentioned before of a Quartet that Buddy Rich had with him that played for a week here. He also seemed always to come with a quartet. He always impressed me and put on a organized set.

Jimmy Smith I only saw once but he played his ass off and, if I remember right, had something wrong with his hand or arm and played mostly with one hand. One of a kind!

Lonnie Smith I saw really often. He lived in Buffalo and used to come here so often he may have had one of several 'sisters" that he lived with here. Small, skinny with conked staight hair, he was a favorite with the women who used to flaunt themselves in front of him. He played quite often at the clubhouse ( which was open to the public ) of the Knights of Pythias called The Pythodd Club, where many bands from NYC used to play including Roland Kirk, Art Blakey, Johnny Lytell etc. and was in the oldest Black neighborhood of the city. Lonnie appeared often with local players, if he was here for more than a week. He could play a whole set of ballads very softly with a lot of color and power. He would make the organ whisper like you would into a lover's ear. The ladies loved it! I saw him last Summer and he had the same old schtick when you shook hand with him. He would hold onto your hand, look you in the eye and say" You owe me money! I KNOW you owe me money!"

I almost forgot Jack Mc Duff. He always had Joe Dukes with him on drums. Have you ever heard 'Rock Candy"? That's the way I remember him!

There were also, of course, many local player with Tenor /Organ groups to hear. It was cheaper than getting together a quartet. White and Black groups. Hell, Doug Duke had a club here! One of the pioneers. At his club he had a lift that the organ sat on that came up from the basement. So the lihts would go down, the organ sounds would come from below, vibrating the floor ( It was a small, narrow club ), and it would rise up in volume with Duke on the organ through the floor! Show Business!

Thanks for the recollections Marcello. Makes me wish I could go back in time with you for a look. That stuff about Lonnie was great. Never heard too much about him from that era from people who were there. Thanks again.

[Jim Alfredson]

My dad saw Doug Duke in the Buffalo area during the late 60s and talked about him for years. He even mentioned the organ rising up from the basement. I finally tracked down a record of his (with Clark Terry on it!) and the stuff is very funny. Lots of schlock, but you can tell he knew how to play.

I think this may be the first mention of Doug Duke on this board!

[marcello]

Here is a photo Of Lou Donaldson, Spider Martin and Lonnie Smith.

[Jim Alfredson]

Cool pic!

[Soul Stream]

Here is a photo Of Lou Donaldson, Spider Martin and Lonnie Smith.

Marcello,

When was this picture taken and where? Very cool. Also, who's Spider Martin? I'm not familiar with him I don't think....

Thanks again for the shot! GReat!!!!