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Art Blakey Question


Dan Gould

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We all know that an extraordinary number of people went through the "University of Blakey" and on to significant careers as leaders. Surely, being asked to join the Messengers was an important, if not critical moment in a lot of people's careers.

My question: is anyone known to have turned Blakey's invite down?

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“A lot of musicians, including Wynton and Branford Marsalis, were amazed when I turned down the chance to join Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers back in 1985, but I've never regretted not taking that gig. At that time I was just starting a family in the UK and I didn't really enjoy being in America. Also I felt that a lot of American jazz musicians were just trying to achieve what I was already achieving here.”

From saxophonist Courtney Pine, after being awarded some British honor (OBE ?).

http://www.collaborationuk.com/obearticle.htm

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Supposedly there was a deal between Miles and Blakey in 1964 to swap tenor players. Wayne would join Miles, and Sam Rivers would become a Jazz Messenger. Only problem was that Sam Rivers decided he didn't want to play Blakey's music, and backed out, I think to form a group with Andrew Hill. If I remember correctly, this is in the notes to the Sam Rivers Mosaic box.

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Although John Gilmore toured with Blakey over 1964/1965 (including a recording for the BBC documented on Jazz 625) I believe that he declined Blakey's invite to stay on so that he could concentrate on the 'residency' with Sun Ra.

Gilmore made a very nice fit indeed in the Blakey lineup. Added an element of 'unpredictability' that filled in somewhat for the gap left by Wayne Shorter. Too bad that the Morgan/Gilmore lineup never recorded for Blue Note.

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Marchel Ivery took the gig around 1980, 1981, somewhere in there, stayed a few months, and then left to come home. He didn't dig the road.

The late 60s were apparently difficult times for Blakey to keep a working band together, too, from what I can gather. His music was considered "old fashioned" by many of the younger players, and a lot of the older guys either couldn't make the committment or else didn't want to work for the bread being offered.

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A friend of mine was offered the trumpet spot, twice! First to replace Hubbard and then to replace Lee, a few years later. He turned them both down.

BTW, my info says Marchel Ivery did the gig in 1983. Mike Mossman was in the band for that same minute.

Anyone who hasn't seen the Blakey chronology, please check my website.

Mike

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The Bruyninckx Disco list only one William Fielder recording: a 1984 session, "Love Progression" obviously self-produced for a label called Prescription, un-numbered, with Kenny Garrett, Mulgrew Miller, David Eubanks and Ralph Peterson.

Must be a heavyweight. Seems to be teaching in Chicago. The interview on the Jazz Insttitute of Chicago website gives some info.

Edited by mikeweil
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No, he teaches in NJ at Rutgers University (almost 25 years there).

His Chicago period was from 1956-1966, with time off to come to NYC for a period around 1961. Mainly in Chicago to study at the American Conservatory of Music at the recommendation of Booker Little. Like Little, Fielder was principal trumpet of the Chicago Civic Symphony. He studied for many years with Adolph Herseth, the principal trumpet of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (just retired after 53 years in the same job), also with Vincent Cichowicz, the second trumpet in the CSO.

Played extensively with Sun Ra, Slide Hampton, BB King, Gene Ammons, and others in the 1950s and 1960s. Various later gigs with Art Pepper, Kenny Burrell, Fathead Newman, Slide Hampton, Illinois Jacquet, Art Farmer, Teddy Edwards, Leroy Vinnegar, and others. Also toured as part of the Jazz Professors group in the late 1970s and early 1980s with a rotating cast that included Kenny Barron, Barry Harris, Cedar Walton, Charlie Rouse, Freddie Waits, Larry Ridley, Ted Dunbar, Horacee Arnold, and others.

The "Love Progression" record is OK (it was rather hastily prepared), but the producer toned things down, requesting calmer retakes. I have heard the outtakes and they are incredible - much higher energy. Unfortunately, there are no records that really document him well. BTW, that is not a self-produced record.

There are a few other recordings including some with Sun Ra from the 1950s, a recent track (Stolen Moments) with a singer named Lionelle Hamanaka, also minor appearances with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra under Fritz Reiner (Pines of Rome, for example) for pieces that require many trumpets.

I wrote his entry for the latest edition of Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Music, a major reference work (only available in big libraries). His brother, Alvin, is much better known and better recorded (founding member of AACM and still a driving force in the music, playing drums with Kidd Jordan and others).

Although I have never really discussed the matter, I suspect Blakey was frustrated, as a number of other big names have been when Fielder has decided against participating in projects (mostly due to exceedingly high standards and strong personal convictions).

Mike

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Guest WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)

My question:  is anyone known to have turned Blakey's invite down?

IRA SULLIVAN TURNED THE GIG DOWN (ON TENOR)

GOD BLESS IRAS....SULLIVAN, NEPUS, GITLER, GERSHWIN,

AND IRA(TE) MISANTHROPES WORLDWIDE...DUH!! :wub:

WINGY :lol:

Edited by WINGY (I STAY BOMBED)
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IRA SULLIVAN TURNED THE GIG DOWN (ON TENOR)

Well, that's not accurate enough. He was hired as a trumpet player, but regretted that decision, he found out he wanted to play tenor sax rather than trumpet as he had a stronger personal identity on that instrument. See Mike's Messengers chronology for details.

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So in fact, Ira Sullivan took the gig but only lasted a short while.

Another question comes up from Mike's chronology:

[bobby Timmons and Walter Davis, Jr. trade off on piano from 1960 into 1961]

Was it Timmons' drug/legal problems that made him trade off with Walter Davis, Jr.?

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This from Joe Golberg's JAZZ MASTERS OF THE 50s:

"You're writing a CHAPTER about Art Blakey?", tenor saxophonist Johnny Griffin asks incredulously. "It'll have to be an awful long chapter. You ought write a BOOK about Art Blakey. He's a rascal. He's liable to do anything, if it's business. I remember, he was having trouble with a trumpet player. He had Ira Sullivan in the band, playing tenor. Ira plays trumpet too, you know. They were supposed to go to Chicago. When this trumpet player got to the airport and saw me there too, he knew what was up, and just turned around and left."

Edited by JSngry
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