Christiern

The troll who infests JC

244 posts in this topic

  • If you visit JR with any regularity, you will probably have noted that there is a particularly pesky fool who trolls there at the mere mention of a certain pedestrian composer (who also plays a soul-less horn). A regular poster, who makes interesting observations and truly contributes to that BBS, is the latest victim of this troll's childish personal attacks. I just read the thread to which I have placed a link here (at the bottom) and it is remarkable to see that this troll--whose purpose is, clearly, not to engage in reasoned discussion, but rather to confront with arrogant suppositions--gets encouragement from a couple of misguided posters (including "Rainy Day") who have fallen for his absurd injection of racism, and little or no support from others.

    Since I have also been a victim of this troll's schoolyard illogic, I hope that Jared (Sonic1, who also is a member of "O") reads this post and sees that there are some of us who think his response #224 is right on the money. Thank you, Jared, perhaps the relative silence of your fellow posters--not to mention the board's administrator, is even more grievous than the unfair assessment (and support thereof) this troll regularly pulls from his little bag of shallow babble. That any intelligent person can take this infantile poster seriously, or simply sit back and nod or shake his/her head, is beyond my understanding.

    It is when reading this kind of venom that I find it difficult not to post at JC, but I have vowed to never do that again. Check out
this link and let me hear what you think.

Edited by Christiern

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Yes, I'm also surprised that people in power don't step in to end his nastiness. Yes, he is that - just downright nasty and damn arrogant (and quite a few others as well). No wonder Crouch is cited as a supporter.

Bile inducing.

But then again, despite some of the good info to be had on JC, I only drop by there once a month or so to have look. There are just too many like characters over there. They're also allowed to have their place, but I don't need to hang around there.

The whole "race card" and us against Marsalis or the Marsalis group against the rest (traditionalism against innovation) is just damn tiring. BOTH sides are locked down in endless skirmishes that repeat the same accusations or the same defence again and again. Nothing new under the sun and the discussion has been in a stalemate forever. And, let's be honest here, the Marsalis detractors can get downright nasty as well.

I wish the discussion would concentrate on the musical aspects of the subject(s) discussed and turn more objective, but both sides seem to be unable to do that (for the most diverse reasons).

Cheers.

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What I don't understand is why people keep engaging Rob in the Wynton debate. The arguments for/against Wynton are so tired. I think most of us would agree that there are more interesting things than Wynton to discuss when it comes to jazz. If you don't like Wynton, get over it and talk about something else. If Wynton-lovers have nothing else to talk about (and it doesn't seem like Rob has much else to talk about), they'll either keep to themselves or eventually go away.

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I've had occasion to run up against a Marsalisite on a few gigs lately (a trumpet player subbing for the regular guy), and it's one of the most depressing things I've ever experienced in my entire career in music. So much pride and so much ignorance (I was listening to Von Freeman on the break, and this fool asked me if it was "some West Coast cat"; then he asked me if I'd dis Chet Baker the same way I would Wynton; plus - he'd never even heard of Ray Nance!)) combined with such absolute certainty that their man is fighting a righteous cause. It was like having a political discussion w/one of those hardcore wingnuts who base everything on dogma and don't dare leave room for even the slightest bit of shading.

I tell you - it's a world gone wrong.

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this fool asked me if it was "some West Coast cat"; then he asked me if I'd dis Chet Baker the same way I would Wynton; plus - he'd never even heard of Ray Nance

Did he know that Prince Charles wanted to marry Camilla Parker Bowles?

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Why even bother with such people? Just ignore them and let them continue to masterbate in the corner.

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Why even bother with such people?  Just ignore them and let them continue to masterbate in the corner.

sbo0662l.jpg

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Oh, this is just the tip of the iceberg. On the second gig this guy was on, he told me that he had talked to Wynton on the phone (apparently they'd met somewhere and Wynton targeted him as a mark, er..."prospect". This guy says that he told Wynton that he had run into some gys who were dissing him. I'll do my best to relate the conversation as it was related to me.

WM: They don't like me because I play sophisticated music, not that Kenny G crap.

SUCKER: No, Wynton, these was older cats. (NOTE - this guy was confronted by unanimous disdain of Wynton's efforts by a coalition of older players, whose makeup cut across racial lines)

WM: Well, ask them if they've heard all my albums. I've made over 50. How do they know they don't like me if they haven't heard all I can do?

SUCKER: I dunno, Wynton, they seem like they had thier minds made up.

WM: Well, then tell'em this - LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!

"Lee's dead, and Freddie don't play no more".

I'm not making this up.

I swear, if Mr. Marsalis was to die, like, RIGHT NOW, I wouldn't mind one bit. If that seems harsh, so be it. But remember -

LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!

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SUCKER: I dunno, Wynton, they seem like they had thier minds made up.

WM: Well, then tell'em this - LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!

"Lee's dead, and Freddie don't play no more".

I'm not making this up.

I swear, if Mr. Marsalis was to die, like, RIGHT NOW, I wouldn't mind one bit. If that seems harsh, so be it. But remember -

LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!

That's messed up that he would say something like that. Wynton could only dream of putting something out that's even close to the level of Lee and Freddie's albums (even the lesser ones). Pretty sad when you have to dis the deceased in order to "elevate" yourself. Lee is a master - Wynton is a masterbaiter.

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SUCKER: I dunno, Wynton, they seem like they had thier minds made up.

WM: Well, then tell'em this - LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!

"Lee's dead, and Freddie don't play no more".

I'm not making this up.

I swear, if Mr. Marsalis was to die, like, RIGHT NOW, I wouldn't mind one bit. If that seems harsh, so be it. But remember -

LEE'S DEAD, & FREDDIE DON'T PLAY NO MORE!

That's messed up that he would say something like that. Wynton could only dream of putting something out that's even close to the level of Lee and Freddie's albums (even the lesser ones). Pretty sad when you have to dis the deceased in order to "elevate" yourself. Lee is a master - Wynton is a masterbaiter.

Or maybe the guy was totally bullshittin' and never talked to Wynton on the phone.

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I've had occasion to run up against a Marsalisite on a few gigs lately (a trumpet player subbing for the regular guy), and it's one of the most depressing things I've ever experienced in my entire career in music. So much pride and so much ignorance (I was listening to Von Freeman on the break, and this fool asked me if it was "some West Coast cat"; then he asked me if I'd dis Chet Baker the same way I would Wynton; plus - he'd never even heard of Ray Nance!)) combined with such absolute certainty that their man is fighting a righteous cause. It was like having a political discussion w/one of those hardcore wingnuts who base everything on dogma and don't dare leave room for even the slightest bit of shading.

I tell you - it's a world gone wrong.

What, were you playing Sambuca's in Addison? :unsure::g

Back to the subject at hand: Damen is one of the many reasons I stopped posting at JC. That and the whole atmosphere of smug jazz-elitism among other things turn me off to a huge extent.

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Or maybe the guy was totally bullshittin' and never talked to Wynton on the phone.

Yeah, possible...but why would this sucka give a quote like that

from a guy who he obviously loves?

I mean if I was talkin bout some famous guy that I talked to and really liked,

I wouldn't go around saying that he was spewing sh*t.

---

Now playing: WKCR - Columbia University

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Yeah, possible...but why would this sucka give a quote like that

from a guy who he obviously loves?

I mean if I was talkin bout some famous guy that I talked to and really liked,

I wouldn't go around saying that he was spewing sh*t.

---

Now playing: WKCR - Columbia University

Maybe this guy is SO off kilter he thinks that's a cool remark?

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The guy talks to Wynton. Complicated circumstances as to how I know this to be true, but I do know it, unquestionably.

I'd not be nearly as pissed/bummed if I didn't know it to be true.

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Maybe this guy is SO off kilter he thinks that's a cool remark?

That's it right there.

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Thanks for the support.

I think the reason not too many people have chimed in is because many people have Damen on ignore, as now again do I.

I am just as responsible for participating. But as I mentioned in my last post to him, his arguments are threaded with some points which makes me engage-thinking there is some kind of logic in there to work with. I have had it out with him a few times. He also posts in such a way that it is hard to say that he should be banned. I mean, we all give each other shit on the JC. But he crosses some line that I cannot define. Hard to ask for him to be ousted when he is just expressing his opinion, no matter how self deluded.

Anyway his bitch ass is back on ignore, for good.

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Maybe this guy is SO off kilter he thinks that's a cool remark?

That's it right there.

Man...that's disturbing...

---

Now playing: WKCR - Columbia University

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(I was listening to Von Freeman on the break, and this fool asked me if it was "some West Coast cat"; then he asked me if I'd dis Chet Baker the same way I would Wynton; plus - he'd never even heard of Ray Nance!))

:huh:

Oh, what the fuck???

Never heard of Ray Nance, that's reason enough not to take him serious.

The coversation with WM just sealed it. <_<

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Yes, I'm also surprised that people in power don't step in to end his nastiness. Yes, he is that - just downright nasty and damn arrogant (and quite a few others as well).

Yet another reason to keep enjoying the Organissimo board. :)

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Yes, I'm also surprised that people in power don't step in to end his nastiness. Yes, he is that - just downright nasty and damn arrogant (and quite a few others as well).

Yet another reason to keep enjoying the Organissimo board. :)

:tup

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Yes, I'm also surprised that people in power don't step in to end his nastiness. Yes, he is that - just downright nasty and damn arrogant (and quite a few others as well).

Yet another reason to keep enjoying the Organissimo board. :)

:tup

plus we have more Jimmy Smith threads. :g

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Yes, I'm also surprised that people in power don't step in to end his nastiness. Yes, he is that - just downright nasty and damn arrogant (and quite a few others as well).

Yet another reason to keep enjoying the Organissimo board. :)

:tup

plus we have more Jimmy Smith threads. :g

...and if the O is going to discuss a Wynton, it will more likely be this cat:

p26347edlrp.jpg

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Maybe this guy is SO off kilter he thinks that's a cool remark?

That's it right there.

Man...that's disturbing...

---

Now playing: WKCR - Columbia University

What's really disturbing is how the Marsailisites are being fed a line of bullshit that has a ready-made answer to every criticism that's based on real shortcomings in society at large, shortcomings that do need calling out. Yes - many White folks DO resent powerful and/or outspoken African-Americans. Yes - many White players DO get "favored status" in the jazz press. Yes, the music industry DOES thrive on promoting juvenillia. Yes - success often creates jealousy and resentment. All this stuff is damn sure'nuff true.

But what does it have to do with Wynton Marsalis' music being so lightweight? Not a damn thing afaic. But for somebody who's being impacted by all these negative factors, it's easy (too easy) to see legitimate criticism of the man's work as just another example of all this social malfeasance at play. And it's easy (too easy) for somebody like Wynton to rally the troops around this rallying cry while he attempts (quite successfully) to build his empire. Certain people are looking for a certain type of hero, and if somebody comes along who they, in their lack of experience and/or despearation, think is the stuff of that hero, well, hell, that's how cults get born, right? And I truly believe that the true Wyntonites (not those who just enjoy some of his music, the ones who REALLY BELIEVE) are a cult. Not a "cult", but a genuine cult. Parallells between the state of mind of these cultists and the current American social/political dynamic shouldn't be too hard to draw, so I say it's a sign of the times, unfortunately.

These arguments (and the fact that Wynton apparently goes to the effort of spoonfeeding retorts to his devotees with which to answer any and all criticisms) remind me of the argument that the MAfia guys always use. You know, the one about "When the government does it, everybody cheers, but when we do it, we're bad guys". Hard to rebut that. But it's just as hard to say that that makes killing people and stuff "ok". But the cultists will have none of that. Tell a drug dealer that selling crack to teenagers is morally reprehensible, and you're a hypocrite. Tell Wynton that you think he's lame, and you resent powerful African-Americans. Same bullshit no matter which way you cut it, as far as I'm concerned.

I tell you again - it's a world gone wrong.

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This is a great post JSngry. Probably the most level-headed post regarding Wynton I have seen in a while.

In this thread I begged several times for these so-called wyntonites to give me discographical recommendations-what were his high points. One guy reluctantly mentioned a few albums but said Wynton was not an innovator, per se. Damen just levelled more nasty comments at me, with no recs. And he attacked me like I am some joe schmoe who doesn't have a history with jazz, but anyone who posts regularly on the JC knows I listen to a lot of music and am pretty freaky about checking out all the corners of the idiom.

I even gave them the chance to show me where the best of Wynton is-and I will go out and purchase those albums (or maybe find copies at the university library) and give them a chance. I do think wynton hype has masked any real critism of his music. I have mostly heard his early stuff and have not given him a fair chance. And I am open minded enough to check it out.

But I got no real response. Which I am still open to.

In all the hype the wyntonites spread and share it would be nice if they shared some album recommendations.

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