JSngry Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 hm....Kenny G...jews... death camps...this thread has taken an odd turn... Like I said - it's a world gone wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Actually I have known white jazz fans who were racists - and white jazz musicians - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Actually I have known white jazz fans who were racists - and white jazz musicians - Really? That seems so insane to me. Why love something that is made by people you hate? Do you know if they were always racist or have they encountered racism towards themselves and become racists because of their anger, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Actually I have known white jazz fans who were racists - and white jazz musicians - I was going to bring this up in that thread. Yes, many white jazz musicians, especially on the west coast believe it or not, were very exclusive and rascist. I remember reading a story in Mingus' auto where he passed as mexican for a while and could play in the all white clubs and bands, until someone realized he was black. I mean, fucking Mingus! But I would like to think most of those kinda jazz fans are either dead or nearly so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Are there still white jazz musicians who are racist? I could see that being the case in the past, when jazz was the popular music, but now that it's on the fringe, it seems strange that someone would choose to be involved with something made by people they hate. Man... people are strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGUD missile Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Having had my own run-ins with Damen over on JC ( as Chris is well aware ), I gave up jousting with him about Winnie about a year and a half ago. I spelled out all the reasons in detail why he was at best a mediocre composer..and a truly awful faux Ellington arranger and excreable full orchestra writer to boot ...I learned my lesson and disengaged because the confrontation was what he actually wanted. I never addressed his playing ( which I feel is competant if derivative ) so, having spotted this thread , I just surfed thru it to read others experiences .. until I got to: " LEE'S DEAD ..AND FREDDY AIN'T PLAYIN' NO MORE" WHAAAAAAT????? If WM in fact uttered this as is purportedly true ..this is appalling. My only response to such a moputhful of s**** is: yeh ..but Roy Hargrove is, and so are Tom Harrell, Tim Ries, Terence Blanchard, Wallace Roney,Ingrid Jensen, Jay Thomas, Dennis Dotson, Steve Huffstedder, Carl Saunders, and any one of at LEAST 100 other guys I could name if I wanted to waste the time doing so ( insert your own favorites here ) ... ..and they ALL play better than you Winnie ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 this thread has taken an odd turn... You really should have waited for Chris to post the pics he has of Christo wrapping Kenny G and Ariel Sharon in purple plastic before you stepped forward with that interesting observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 "Branford was never an asshole." Except maybe for the time in Ken Burns' Jazz where he commented on Cecil Taylor's statement about audience pre-concert prep as "self-indulgent bullshit." Go back and read that quote in its proper context. Branford was done an injustice by people who misinterpreted what he said and quickly pounced on him. Weizen, that was mauve chiffon, not purple plastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 (edited) per-racism by white musicians and jazz audience - racism has many levels - it's not always of the white-sheet/klan kind - however a discussion of THAT sort is more complicated than my meager mind an handle right now. But, yes, I have seen/heard racist displays/comments by such people, though it's likely that they themselves did not regard them as such - - Edited February 10, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic1 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 per-racism by white musicians and jazz audience - racism has many levels - it's not always of the white-sheet/klan kind - however a discussion of THAT sort is more complicated than my meager mind an handle right now. But, yes, I have seen/heard racist displays/comments by such people - All I have to say is that there are a lot of white assholes out there in power that people hate. I can think of one in particular: I don't see people holding back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Well, here's some grafitti I saw years ago in the bathroom at Bradley's: "Republicans, how can you shit here when your asshole is in Washington?" - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 ..and a truly awful faux Ellington arranger and excreable full orchestra writer to boot ... This reminds me...I heard part of Wynton's take on A Love Supreme today on the radio. I didn't think anything could make the original sound better than it already did, but somehow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Check out this link and let me hear what you think. Troll n. - An internet troll is a person who sends duplicitous messages hoping to get angry responses, or a message sent by such a person. Who's the troll on Organissimo? Chris, if you're so hot and bothered by Damen's activities over on Jazz Corner, go duke it out with him over there. Why bring this crap over here? I was very happy that shit stayed over there. By the way, what are you afraid of over there now anyway? Stanley Crouch never came back. Oh, that's right, the moderator, Lois Gilbert, seems to think that Wynton Marsalis does good things at Jazz at Linclon Center. Are you that petty that you can't overlook that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 By the way, why bring this here? As this board's moderator so aptly asked... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 but Roy Hargrove is, and so are Tom Harrell, Tim Ries, Terence Blanchard, Wallace Roney,Ingrid Jensen, Jay Thomas, Dennis Dotson, Steve Huffstedder, Carl Saunders, and any one of at LEAST 100 other guys I could name if I wanted to waste the time doing so ( insert your own favorites here ) ... I'll bet you meant to say Barry Ries, didn't you Phil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Check out this link and let me hear what you think. Troll n. - An internet troll is a person who sends duplicitous messages hoping to get angry responses, or a message sent by such a person. Who's the troll on Organissimo? Chris, if you're so hot and bothered by Damen's activities over on Jazz Corner, go duke it out with him over there. Why bring this crap over here? I was very happy that shit stayed over there. By the way, what are you afraid of over there now anyway? Stanley Crouch never came back. Oh, that's right, the moderator, Lois Gilbert, seems to think that Wynton Marsalis does good things at Jazz at Linclon Center. Are you that petty that you can't overlook that? Grow up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Having a senior moment, eh? You're a troll and you hate it when someone calls you on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzypaul Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 ..and a truly awful faux Ellington arranger and excreable full orchestra writer to boot ... This reminds me...I heard part of Wynton's take on A Love Supreme today on the radio. I didn't think anything could make the original sound better than it already did, but somehow... That's so weird. I am by no means a big Wynton supporter, but I was sitting around with some buddies over the weekend checking out Wynton's take on Acknowledgement, and really diggin' it. The soloists are okay (Nash's solo is awesome), but the arranged sections (save the little bouncing love supreme at the end...that was pretty puke-a-riffic) are pretty damned well bad ass. The rest of the CD rates a solid comme-ci, comme-ca as far as I'm concerned. But, man, here I was thinking Wynton had almost written something close to moving... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted February 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 Well, here's some grafitti I saw years ago in the bathroom at Bradley's: "Republicans, how can you shit here when your asshole is in Washington?" - Good one, Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 "Having a senior moment, eh?" let's cut the age-ist crap - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGUD missile Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 but Roy Hargrove is, and so are Tom Harrell, Tim Ries, Terence Blanchard, Wallace Roney,Ingrid Jensen, Jay Thomas, Dennis Dotson, Steve Huffstedder, Carl Saunders, and any one of at LEAST 100 other guys I could name if I wanted to waste the time doing so ( insert your own favorites here ) ... I'll bet you meant to say Barry Ries, didn't you Phil? mea culpa ..typing too fast ..touch of CRS syndrome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGUD missile Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 ..and a truly awful faux Ellington arranger and excreable full orchestra writer to boot ... This reminds me...I heard part of Wynton's take on A Love Supreme today on the radio. I didn't think anything could make the original sound better than it already did, but somehow... That's so weird. I am by no means a big Wynton supporter, but I was sitting around with some buddies over the weekend checking out Wynton's take on Acknowledgement, and really diggin' it. The soloists are okay (Nash's solo is awesome), but the arranged sections (save the little bouncing love supreme at the end...that was pretty puke-a-riffic) are pretty damned well bad ass. The rest of the CD rates a solid comme-ci, comme-ca as far as I'm concerned. But, man, here I was thinking Wynton had almost written something close to moving... Giving the devil his due ..I have heard a couple ..read A COUPLE ..of his septet charts that weren't too bad .. But the rest of his ouevre ...( sfx: gagging and retching sounds ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 If Wynton indeed said or implied that he was better than Freddie Hubbard or Lee Morgan-well on the face of it that's a remark that's both absurd and bizarre. Even though Mogie is gone and Hubbard's chops may be gone, Wynton will never be superior to either one of them-their recorded legacies bear that out. If Wynton is indeed saying I'm the number one guy because one guy is dead and the other is "debilitated?" it would be a sad testimony that he would feel a need to puff himself up like that. Those are the remarks of someone who has a tenuous grip on reality and his self esteem afaic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 (edited) My impression, having seen a lot of posts (though not the totality of them), is that a ways back Rob Damen's posts about Wynton Marsalis were reasonable (even if one disagreed with them) and that his manner with other posters was mainly polite. Eventually, though, much of his posting became puerile as he seemed to be drawn into volleys of escalating rancor and puerility back and forth with adversaries. I'm not sure who crossed the line of spite and childishness first, but my impression is that he didn't seek to be on that other side of it, though, clearly, he is now. In any case, no matter how bad some of his posts are, I do not believe he is a troll in the sense of someone seeking just to stir things up. Damen seems to be sincere in wanting his view to heard as he sticks up for it and, at least sometime in the past, he seemed to be open to reasonable debate about Wynton Marsalis, though, clearly, he and the debate are well past that point now. The quote attributed to Wynton Marsalis is not substantiated. Now, possibly, it's on its way - like the game in which people whisper into the ear of the person next to them through a circle until the original message is lost - to rumor and then to canard so that it will soon be something like, "Did you hear what Wynton Marsalis said about his being a much greater player than Louis Armstrong, Roy Eldridge, Dizzy Gillespie, Lee Morgan or Freddie Hubard ever were? What an asshole!" On the other hand, Wynton Marsalis has said some foolish things before. And hating Marsalis so much that you'd just as soon he were dead, if that's to be taken literally, is pretty out of proportion. No matter what Marsalis's worst evils might be (if there is anything that's truly evil about him), surely there's far greater evil in the world deserving the death of its perpetrators. Slaughtering, torturing, enslaving, starving, and dehumanizing millions and millions of people is at least just a tad worse, I'd think. And there are more than enough people in this world to hate for being agents of such evil. Somehow, controversies about an art form and its institutions pale in comparision. Wynton Marsalis is a fair subject of controversy and the future of jazz is important, but I think a sense of scale would help. Edited February 11, 2005 by Cornelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted February 11, 2005 Report Share Posted February 11, 2005 If Wynton indeed said or implied that he was better than Freddie Hubbard or Lee Morgan-well on the face of it that's a remark that's both absurd and bizarre. My impression of the quote - assuming it's even accurate - wasn't that WM necessarily thought himself better than Freddie or Lee, just that they're no longer around as competition. It's a subtle difference, perhaps, but not nearly as offensive imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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