Jan Garbarek

[JSngry]

I like all those early Garbarek ECMs quite a bit, as well as the Esoteric Circle LP on Flying Dutchman.

Wouldn't have pegged "Chicago" so much, but either way, they are interesting and quite heavy.

By Chicago I meant, here, some small-instrument style percussion, a multi-instrument approach, and use of 'space'. None of the pure surrealist whackiness of some paragraphs of early Art Ensemble, but a connection all the same. I'd say a commodified version of space/silence became one of the ECM trade-marks, and I had in the back of my mind John Litweiler's argument that the Art Ensemble migrated from its early and radical emphasis on space as it became more percussion (and entertainment) driven. I was reminding myself how early ECM was not yet 'ECM' and that these early Garbareks belong to the same label-world as Afternoon of a Georgia Fawn and The Music Improvisation Company, and I am making a suggestion that the evolution of ECM in some way occupies the same history of loss of an avant-garde moment in ways we sometimes lose sight of.

I'm a cultural historian, what do you expect from me?

Yeah, a lot of people only know the "ECM sound" once it had become that. But before that, the label released some really intense music, still recorded in a spectacular manner though.

In fact one might make the case that there for a while, ECM & CTI were the yin & yang of post-free/post-rock "popular" jazz, with at least as many similarities as differences?

What, pray tell, are the similarities?

ECM has been in existence for 40 years. Did CTI make 4?

Eicher never pushed an artist to record music he/she did not want to record. Look what Creed Taylor did to an artist like Jimmy Smith when he took over Verve. This type of stuff continued into the CTI years, unfortunately. The 70s were a time when jazz tried too hard to copy the commercial success enjoyed by rock. How did that work out? What it did was spawn labels like Muse, which while its heart was in the right place, produced some pretty crappily recorded sessions.

None of these problems have ever affected ECM. Eicher, for all of his naysayers, has always stood by his vision. For that ECM deserves to be applauded, as it is now the oldest ongoing "creative music" label.

Slow down there, Ricky, save some room for dessert!

Not sure that the concept of yin/yang (complementary opposites) is being understood here, but ok, let's play anyway.

What, pray tell, are the similarities?

1. A company of star artists who were synonymous with the label
2. A distinctive, shocking, even, recorded sound dictated by the producer
3. A distinctive visual look
4. A musical output that appealed to other than strictly "straight-ahead" jazz buffs of the time - in fact a music that frequently repelled them.
5. A "musical vision" ultimately guided by the producer more than the artist
6. An audience who - in the heyday of each respective label - would buy an album just because it was on the label
7. An eye towards more "pop" markets - KUDU = Pat Metheney

Again, the concept here is complimentary opposites - doing the same thing in daimetrically opposed ways.

ECM has been in existence for 40 years. Did CTI make 4?

Easily, but that's not the point...I suppose I should have stipulated "early to mid 70s" as the "for a while" being referenced, but even so, the demise of CTI was almost entirely business/management related. The influence of the label's "sound" lives on even today, as does that of ECM.

Eicher never pushed an artist to record music he/she did not want to record.

Hmmm....George Adams, Sam Rivers, and a few others might differ with you on that...perhaps not in terms of repertoire but definitley in terms of "interpretation". Adams in particular was unambiguous that the "feeling" of his ECM date came about through Eicher's insistence and in spite of Adam's expressed reservations. For that matter, Alfred Lion exercised control over repertoire as he saw fit, as does damn near every label owner/producer. That's part of the gig.

Look what Creed Taylor did to an artist like Jimmy Smith when he took over Verve.

What, find a framework for them to play like they always played that resonated with a broader segment of the public, which gave the artist a higher profile, and gave both the artist and the label a shot at more successful careers than they might have had otherwise?

This type of stuff continued into the CTI years, unfortunately.

Yeah, selling records and getting better gigs as a result really sucks.

The 70s were a time when jazz tried too hard to copy the commercial success enjoyed by rock. How did that work out?

Pretty nicely, actually, even though that premise is so much Marsaillisian bullshit. The 70s were a pretty damn good decade for both commercial and creative jazz. And there were times when the twain actually did meet, more than today, for sure.

What it did was spawn labels like Muse, which while its heart was in the right place, produced some pretty crappily recorded sessions.

CTI spawned Muse? Are you serious? Try Prestige, Cobblestone, Joe Fields, & Don Schlitten, rather than Verve & Creed Taylor. Although, the success of CTI certainly gave "soulful" jazz a "broader profile" than it might otherwise have had, so in that regard, CTI was a definite plus to the overall jazz scene of its time.

Can't argue with the "crappily recorded" part though, even if there is a nostalgic charm to hearing a 50/50 (at best) ratio between reverb & actual notes...pity that the same guy who recorded the CTI albums couldn't have also done the Muse ones as well...

None of these problems have ever affected ECM. Eicher, for all of his naysayers, has always stood by his vision. For that ECM deserves to be applauded, as it is now the oldest ongoing "creative music" label.

No argument here. I have a lot of respect for Eicher & own/enjoy quite a few ECM records myself. Alth0ough...how does one reconcile Eicher standing by his vision and never exerting control over his artists?

[JETman]

Boy, you really do have alot of time on your hands!

While I appreciate your analysis, I respectfully disagree with alot of what you say. I, for instance, see very little redeeming value in the soulful sound of CTI with lush strings, orchestral backdrops and such. I'm not one who sees greatness in people like Joel Dorn and his application of the "Philly soul" sound to the creative music genre. Joe Fields deserves some credit for his work in the industry, but loses that credit for how he presented labels like Muse. As a matter of fact, I tend to value his more recent work with his Savant and High Note labels. If only he would stop going back to Englewood Cliffs!

Edited April 23, 2010 by JETman

[JSngry]

I, for instance, see very little redeeming value in the soulful sound of CTI with lush strings, orchestral backdrops and such. I'm not one who sees greatness in people like Joel Dorn and his application of the "Philly soul" sound to the creative music genre. J

The music of the 60s/early 70s suggested many directions. A listener may not like the ones (emphasis on the s) he chose, but they were as individual and legitimate as any of the other directions.

Why didn't he follow the route "I" prefer? Well, other people did.

Hey...

But just for the record...Joel Dorn & Creed Taylor were coming from - and going to - (almost) totally different directions/places/POVs/etc. Joel Dorn would never have recorded Deodato, much less gotten a Number 2 Pop Charts hit out of him.

Boy, you really do have alot of time on your hands!

Not really...took a week off work & caught a freakin' cold. Just sitting around doing nothing...

For the record though, I probably have more total ECM records than CTI, and probably by a very large margin...not too many past the early 80s though. So it's not like I "hate" ECM or anything. Far from it. I just think that it was, in its own way, a populist/popular label just as much as was CTI. Eicher knows his audience every bit as well as he knows his vision, I'm sure, and no fault whatsoever in that.

[Robert Middleton]

What the hell happened to Garbarek's recording career? I have just about all his albums and a ton of them as a sideman. 59 in all. Witchi-Tai-To may be my favorite, but I've enjoyed them all to some degree or the other over the years. The last one I have is the double live album, Dresen from 2009. Officium Novum came out in 210 and nary a peep since. But according to his website he still doing a lot of concerts all over Europe. But no more recordings for almost 10 years. Wonder why?

Edited September 30, 2019 by Robert Middleton

[mjzee]

55 minutes ago, Robert Middleton said:

What the hell happened to Garbarek's recording career? I have just about all his albums and a ton of them as a sideman. 59 in all. Witchi-Tai-To may be my favorite, but I've enjoyed them all to some degree or the other over the years. The last one I have is the double live album, Dresen from 2009. Officium Novum came out in 210 and nary a peep since. But according to his website he still doing a lot of concerts all over Europe. But no more recordings for almost 10 years. Wonder why?

New album on October 18, with the Hilliard Ensemble:

https://www.facebook.com/ecmrecords/posts/jan-garbarek-the-hilliard-ensemble-remember-me-my-dear-will-be-released-on-octob/10157608191356182/

[Rabshakeh]

Rather random question, from a rather old (and rather weird) thread. 

As a callow 37 year old youth who was only aware of Mr. G from the '90s, I've always thought of him as essentially a brand trademark for the ECM sound / lifestyle. Every bit of coverage or conversation I have seen or read about him has always mentioned his nordic/icy/folk sound, and then immediately segued into the question of the appeal or otherwise of ECM. The above thread is an example of this.

Obviously, though, that's based on his post 80's career. As the posters above mention, Garbarek's earlier records don't necessarily sound like that at all. Nor, for that matter, do ECM's.

I'd be interested to know from the more experienced members of the board how Garbarek was perceived by the jazz public and critics when he first emerged in the late 60s and early 70s with Afric Pepperbird, etc.  Was he viewed and marketed as part of the Avant Garde? Did people remark on how "icy" his sound was, even then?

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Rabshakeh

[JSngry]

I remember it being "Nordic" (or something like that, I don't think I had a really deep understanding of what that truly meant, so, hey, "geographic designation" would just have to do in place of real understanding), but "steely", not "icy". Or if so, "icy heat", not "icy freezy". It was impossible to not feel it.

And his records with George Russell, Esoteric Circle….no matter how you perceived the temperature...INTENSE.

Myself, I didn't really sense any sort of "withdrawal" from the "heat" (be it hot or icy) until maybe...early 90s? late 80s? But to be honest, it seemed like a natural evolution, as he for whatever reason became less engaged with American players. A natural evolution towards whatever his environments and roots were saying to him as time went by.