"Inside/Outside" Saxophonists

[cannonball-addict]

A strictly outside player would be someone like Peter Brotzmann. Or any of the Europeans (especially Scandinavians) who record for Emanem and Leo and Psi Records.

[Guy Berger]

Most of Pharoah's stuff with Trane definitely isn't "inside/outside". I'd say that Trane's stuff from '66 onward probably wouldn't qualify -- I'm thinking of his playing from '58 to mid-'65.

Guy

[montg]

unlike "inside" players who do this, they are willing to use an "outside" phrase as a point of tonal resolution instead of as a passing tone or group of tones - or as a passing chord - now, if we use this definition I would say that the first person to do this in jazz was likely Lenny Tristano who, as early as 1946, was willing to end a phrase with unresolved tension (eg; what is this thing called love, solo, I blieve has a phrase that ends on a flat ninth).

Interesting. Guess I need to pick up some Tristano to see where it all began.

[kh1958]

I would say that inside-outside players tend to play notes both inside and outside of the standard harmony; unlike "inside" players who do this, they are willing to use an "outside" phrase as a point of tonal resolution instead of as a passing tone or group of tones - or as a passing chord - now, if we use this definition I would say that the first person to do this in jazz was likely Lenny Tristano who, as early as 1946, was willing to end a phrase with unresolved tension (eg; what is this thing called love, solo, I blieve has a phrase that ends on a flat ninth). Bird was a genius at constructing odd-ball and distant harmonic approaches to triadic harmony - but always (or almost always) resolved these phrases. And maybe we shouldn't just do saxophonists but all good inside-ouside players - in which case let's not forget one of the best, Paul Bley -

Damn, I hate it when someone who knows what they are talking about posts next to me.

[relyles]

On my way to hear Yosuke Yamashita last night I listened to Edward Wilkerson Jr.'s Light On The Path, a 1994 recording on the Sound Aspects label. Its a quartet date with Rod McGaha (tp), Harrison Bankhead and Reggie Nicholson. Very interesting compositions and great playing by everyone. Its the kind of recording that makes you wish there were more recordings under Wilkerson's name in a small group where he is the featured horn. What I have heard of his 8 Bold Souls recordings I really like, but the emphasis in those recordings seems to be more on Wilkerson's writing and the group sound as opposed to his own immense talent as an instrumentalist. Other than recordings with the Ethnic Heritage ensemble, I am not aware of any of recordings featuring Wilkerson in a smaller group. Anyone know of any others that I am missing?

Motivated by the discussion in the David Murray thread, this weekend I received Buell Niedlinger's Big Drum with Marty Krystall and Woyzeck's Death by Allen Lowe and Roswell Rudd. I listened to most of the Neidlinger yesterday while driving around with the children. Krystall is a new voice to me so he is going to require further listening, but my initial reaction is that he definately has something to say. I am not ready to trash all my David Murray recordings, but I am looking forward to hearing more Krystall.

[Larry Kart]

For more Wilkerson as a soloist, check out the Ethnic Heritage Ensemble's "21st Century Union March." Samples can be heard here:

http://www.fred.net/jbowie/ehe.html

It's not as successful an album overall IMO as "Light On the Path," but Wilkerson holds up his end as I recall. I wish there were as much of Wilkerson on disc as a soloist as there is of, say, Chris Potter -- hell, even one-tenth as much Wilkerson on disc as there is of Potter would be a blessing.

[Kreilly]

Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I could comment on whether Julius Hemphill and Henry Threadgill are inside/outside players. I'm still trying to grasp the concept. From Air to the Zooid, there's really no one's work I enjoy more consistently than Henry Threadgill, avant-garde and compositionally strong. What about Roscoe Mitchell, though a lot of his work is clearly outside. After listening to several fairly experimental recordings by Mitchell, I was surprised at how accessible and beautiful his "Song for my Sister" is.

Kevin

[JSngry]

Although I have a very high level of respect for Elley Eskelin's abilities as a saxophonist and creative improvisor, I've never really though of him as being an "inside" player, that tribute to Jug thing he did a while back notwithstanding. Although, with him, it's obviously a matter of choice. The cat can definitely play his instrument.

However, this past weekend I got to hear an album by drummer Tony Martucci that had a front line of Eskelin & Joe Lovano. The material itself was sorta "inside/outside" - a Monk tune, a Sam Rivers thing, and some originals that had various degrees of repetitive structure & preset changes built in to them.

Eskelin nailed the inside stuff, and, of course, excelled on the freer things. So I'd definitely add him to this list.

[John Tapscott]

I recently received the Elvin Jones Mosaic set and there is some tremendous saxophone playing throughout this set. But the most "inside/outside" playing on this set must be the Liebman/Grossman Lighthouse sets on Discs 7 & 8. I had the double Lp years ago and enjoyed it, but now to hear the night's three sets straight through and to reflect on the fact that Liebman was 26 and Grossman 21 at the time of the recording makes it even more amazing. IMHO, this is saxophone playing for the ages. Magnificent stuff.

[ralphie_boy]

In addition to those listed, here's a few others:

Tyrone Washington

Marion Brown

Yuseef Lateef (sometimes)

Eric Kloss

Art Pepper (late-period)

Newk

[MartyJazz]

Any impressions on John Stubblefield? He is one of my favorite saxophonists, but in comparison to others his discography (especially as a leader) is slim. I caught him live once and he was great. I own his three recordings on Enja and another one on Soul Note. I also have a few unissued radio braodcasts of live performances featuring Stubblefield. While I enjoy them all, I am not sure that any of them really captures Stubblefield's best. Anyone have any recommendations on the definitive Stubblefield performance?

Excuse me for coming late to this thread. In any event, while I cannot recommend a definitive Stubblefield performance, I wonder whether you've checked out any of the Fort Apache Band recordings where he is prominently featured.

[relyles]

Yep, I got a few of those. I have not listened to them in a while. Maybe its time to pull them out again. I also have recordings by Victor Lewis and/or Larry Willis on Audioquest that I believe feature Stubblefield that deserve to be heard again. Then of course there are the Kenny Barron and Mingus Big Band recordings ... and a few radio broadcasts. I suppose I have more Stubblefield around than I remembered.

[Larry Kart]

Among the quintessential inside-out solos IMO, and one that reveals what the problems are (if problems there be) in that way of playing and why inside-out is not just a matter of staying more or less within a given form or departing from it but also of overall sensibility (e.g. Roscoe Mitchell never played an inside-out solo in his life, AFAIK) ... well I see this sentence has pretty much broken down, but the solo I have in mind is Joe Henderson's on "True Colors" from Freddie Hubbard's album "Blue Spirits" (Blue Note, rec. 1966). which is particularly revealing of what's at issue (or at stake) here because it very untypically moves outside-in rather than inside-out. I could, and might still, go on about this particular hobby horse but don't for some reason feel up for it right now. But check out this solo if you can. If you like it, fine -- I won't try to convince you otherwise. If it feels a bit odd (as in "implausible") to you, then you probably see the problem or see it the way I do.

BTW, Bob Blumenthal's notes for the RVG issue of "Blue Spirits" say that Herbie Hancock plays piano and celeste on the two pieces from the belatedly issued "True Colors" date, but that's not a celeste; it's either a harpsichord or an electronic keyboard instrument that's been tweaked so that it sounds like a harpsichord.

[Peter F]

I don't believe that Bennie Wallace has been mentioned. He is probably my favorite living inside/outside player. Listen to him on the two Anthony Wilson CDs called "Goat Hill Junker" and "Adult Themes". Wallace also has some wonderful CDs under his own name on Audioquest, Enja, and Groove Note.

His playing blends a Ben Webster-ish approach with a style that has the large interval leaps one hears from Eric Dolphy.

Peter F

[JSngry]

Actually, the term "inside/outside" might be fallacious. at least in some respects. There's probably some Fundamental Law Of Physics that dictates that Nature abhors a vaccum, and that once a new "outsice" is discovered, it's all but inevitable that the "inside" will sooner or later come to it to one degree or another as a matter of basic inevitablity.

In other words, the window for being truly "outside" is a relatively small one, and once it's closed, that's it. After that, it's all "inside", no matter how long it takes to be percieved as such.

[Chuck Nessa]

These seem to be inside saxophonists

Edited April 6, 2005 by Chuck Nessa

[Chuck Nessa]

These seem to be inside/outside saxophonists

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/uploads/p...-1112388340.jpg

[AllenLowe]

per-Julis Hemphill (with whom I recorded twice and performed with once at the Knitting Factory) - Julius was a monster musician, a great composer/arranger, but essentially a "free" player - he was a brilliant soloist and wrote fascinating and original themes, and than improvised on them in a wonderfully organic way. I did discover, however, at our first (of two) recording sessions that he wasn't particularly comfortable with conventional chord chages; on one tune from the session, with a relatively simple set of changes, he sounds stiff and uncomfortable- left to his own improvisational devices, however, he was incomparable.

Edited April 7, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Kreilly]

per-Julis Hemphill (with whom I recorded twice and performed with once at the Knitting Factory) - Julius was a monster  musician, a great composer/arranger, but essentially a "free" player - he was a brilliant soloist and wrote fascinating and original themes, and than improvised on them in a wonderfully organic way. I did discover, however, at our first (of two) recording sessions that he wasn't particularly comfortable with conventional chord chages; on one tune from the session, with a relatively simple set of changes, he sounds stiff and uncomfortable- left to his own improvisational devices, however, he was incomparable.

Thanks Allen, for your comments on Hemphill. After reading your reply I phoned Cadence and ordered "New Tango '92" so I can hear the two of you together.

Kevin

[montg]

I recently picked up Arthur Blythe's "Lenox Avenue Breakdown" and gave it a spin tonight for the first time. Very nice! A great "inside/outside" session. Really cool instrumentation, with James Newton's flute, the tuba, and Blood Ulmer comping on electric guitar.

It's a shame that Columbia didn't stick with Blythe.

[clifford_thornton]

Motivated by the discussion in the David Murray thread, this weekend I received Buell Niedlinger's Big Drum with Marty Krystall and Woyzeck's Death by Allen Lowe and Roswell Rudd. I listened to most of the Neidlinger yesterday while driving around with the children. Krystall is a new voice to me so he is going to require further listening, but my initial reaction is that he definately has something to say. I am not ready to trash all my David Murray recordings, but I am looking forward to hearing more Krystall.

Marty Krystall is absolutely fantastic - Big Drum is a really heavy date that might fall a bit closer to "outside," but you can feel that he has real roots in his tenor playing. He's not too commonly mentioned, at least around these parts, so I'll second that recommendation of his work, especially with Buell. Buell is a total character - ya gotta love him!

[BruceH]

Don't forget Joe Henderson.

The first name I thought of when I saw this thread.

[AllenLowe]

yes - MARTY KRYSTAL - simply one of the greatest saxophonists alive (David Murray does not even compare) - some of the older LPs he made with Niedlinger are amazing, particularly one of Monk tunes -

[AllenLowe]

yes - MARTY KRYSTAL - simply one of the greatest saxophonists alive (David Murray does not even compare) - some of the older LPs he made with Niedlinger are amazing, particularly one of Monk tunes -

[clifford_thornton]

Thelonious Atmosphere? Great record!