relyles Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 The David Murray thread got a little sidetracked with the compilation of a list of saxophonists who occupy a realm that is both "inside" and "outside". Since I love these edgy musicians who push at the boundaries without necessarily going completely out, I thought a more detailed discussion of the topic would be interesting while I wait for my Buell Neidlinger disc with Marty Krystall to arrive. So who are some of your favorite inside/outside saxophonists and why? What recordings would you recommend? Ideas on how we define an "inside/outside" musician might be just as interesting as a discussion on the actual artists. Any thoughts on that issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 (edited) So who are some of your favorite inside/outside saxophonists and why? What recordings would you recommend? Ideas on how we define an "inside/outside" musician might be just as interesting as a discussion on the actual artists. Any thoughts on that issue? Most of my favorite saxophonists fit into this category... Trane, Wayne, Jackie Mac, Eric Dolphy, Sam Rivers, Joe H, Charles Lloyd. Guy Edited February 24, 2005 by Guy Berger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Tommy Smth ( Bluesmith - Alone At Last ) Billy Harper (Capra Black) Chris Potter (Lift) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Any impressions on John Stubblefield? He is one of my favorite saxophonists, but in comparison to others his discography (especially as a leader) is slim. I caught him live once and he was great. I own his three recordings on Enja and another one on Soul Note. I also have a few unissued radio braodcasts of live performances featuring Stubblefield. While I enjoy them all, I am not sure that any of them really captures Stubblefield's best. Anyone have any recommendations on the definitive Stubblefield performance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFrank Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 George Adams was the KING of inside/outslide playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morganized Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Don't forget Joe Henderson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Dewey Redman would be one of those. Like what he played on his Actuel album 'Tarik' with the help of Malachi Favors and Ed Blackwell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Stubblefied is great but his own recordings don't show make the same impact as he does live. Maybe he just makes such a great impression live, that his recording pale some in the light of day. Suggestions are welcome! I first saw him play with Thad & Mel's band. Wow! Here is a link to a interview with him:Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BbM7 Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Archie Shepp! Anyone inclined to put James Carter in this category? In the right mood, I like Carter too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Frank Lowe I'm not tooting my own horn, or at least trying not to, I just feel like I've already said HERE why the man's music is important to me. Though I will add that Lowe's death caused me think about his relationship to tradition all over again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Pharoah Sanders (at least "recently") Anthony Braxton (on his "standards" dates) Gato Barbieri ? Eric Dolphy Booker Ervin (occassionally?) Joe Henderson (again, occassionally) Odean Pope Roland Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannonball-addict Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 I disagree about Anthony Braxton Inside/Outside Saxophonists: Chris Potter Chris Cheek Chris Speed George Garzone Walt Weiskopf Michael Brecker Branford Marsalis Steve Wilson Jimmy Greene James Carter Eric Alexander (yes he goes outside - not like Murray but he goes outside) Marcus Strickland Joe Farrell Joe Lovano Frank Catalano Von Freeman Yes, Yes, Yes - Joe Henderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 (edited) Elton Dean - I've enjoyed his playing since the Soft Machine days. He can move from providing interest in a jazz-rock context through relatively structured jazz compositions all the way to the totally free. And all points in between. I'm currently enjoying a disc by the Anglo-Italian Quartet with Harry Beckett, Enrico Fazio and Fiorenzo Sordini that works on the cusp between the latter two areas, more in than out. Edited February 24, 2005 by Bev Stapleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Stubblefied is great but his own recordings don't show make the same impact as he does live. Maybe he just makes such a great impression live, that his recording pale some in the light of day. Suggestions are welcome! I first saw him play with Thad & Mel's band. Wow! Here is a link to a interview with him:Link Thanks for the link to the interview. There was also a very informative multi part feature in Coda last year that is worth reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 What exactly is inside/outside playing? Inside the chords versus playing, in some sense, independent of what the chordal and rhythm instruments are doing? Some of the saxophonists listed (McLean, Billy Harper, Joe Henderson, Weiskopf etc. ) I really dig and others...well, the less said, the better. I'm having trouble finding a connective thread. Could even someone like Lester Young be considered 'out' in the way that he floated above the rhythm section sometimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 What exactly is inside/outside playing? Inside the chords versus playing, in some sense, independent of what the chordal and rhythm instruments are doing? That is exactly one of the questions I was hoping one of our more learned members could help me understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Does it mean someone who is highly proficient in the jazz tradition (Behop and hard bop) and in 1960s and beyond avant garde jazz, and who integrates the two traditions into a single style? If so, my own favorites among saxophonists fitting this description are George Adams, Roland Kirk, Pharoah Sanders, Billy Harper, David Murray, and Eric Dolphy. On piano, my favorite inside/outside players are Jaki Byard and Don Pullen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 (edited) I would say that inside-outside players tend to play notes both inside and outside of the standard harmony; unlike "inside" players who do this, they are willing to use an "outside" phrase as a point of tonal resolution instead of as a passing tone or group of tones - or as a passing chord - now, if we use this definition I would say that the first person to do this in jazz was likely Lenny Tristano who, as early as 1946, was willing to end a phrase with unresolved tension (eg; what is this thing called love, solo, I blieve has a phrase that ends on a flat ninth). Bird was a genius at constructing odd-ball and distant harmonic approaches to triadic harmony - but always (or almost always) resolved these phrases. And maybe we shouldn't just do saxophonists but all good inside-ouside players - in which case let's not forget one of the best, Paul Bley - Edited February 24, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Inside the chords versus playing, in some sense, independent of what the chordal and rhythm instruments are doing? Yes, I think that description will do! Cannbal-addict - Nice list! I forgot about Chris Cheek; he holds his own on the Paul Motion record playing Monk and Powell with Chris Potter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 (edited) Jaki Byard - yes, yes, a genius - and Jaki was doing this stuff in the 1950s, according to one reliable witness - Edited February 24, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 So, for a point of reference, who is an example of someone who is strictly 'outside'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Add John Gilmore as an insider / outsider. Also Arthur Blythe. As for an example of someone who is exclusively "outside"... that's kind of tricky, but I'm tempted to say Charles Gayle. Or maybe Joe Maneri, who I'm sure could play "inside" but elects not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 no player, free or not, is ever playing independent of what the chordal or bass instruments are playing - it's just another kind of musical relationsip, suggested by passing notes, implied harmonies, lines, textures, sound, rhythm - a bit of everything - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 My point about Braxton is that he's generally considered an "outside" player who can play "inside" when he wants to. But I suppose one can say that about almost anybody... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 well, many players are outside players if they are playing sans chord changes - unless they're playing very simple modal things - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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