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Well Moose, I wish more guitarists sounded like Wes, who always sounded like a real guitar. today most of the jazz guitarists have adopted the tone that John Scofield had around 1990 (maybe he still has it I don't know) it is a sort of fuzzy, murky, kind of tone that buzzes and I can't hear much of the real guitar.

Now, it worked for him and I even like some of his stuff, but Christ everybody went that way and I like another sound out of a guitar.

I guess I'd prefer people would just sound like themselves. That sounds simplistic, and with any other instruments it would be. But jazz seems to lock guitar in a narrow box and say 'it must sound like this or it isn't jazz'.

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I guess I'd prefer people would just sound like themselves.  That sounds simplistic, and with any other instruments it would be.  But jazz seems to lock guitar in a narrow box and say 'it must sound like this or it isn't jazz'.

Agreed Moose,

I want musicians to sound like themselves and I would never suggest copying another's phrasing, attack, pet licks, etc.

I was merely referring to the tone of a guitar and some are more synthetic than others and I just prefer one which is closer to how a guitar actually sounds. And I do think electric guitarists who play hollow body guitars have an advantage there. It's just a preference and I would not say it is not jazz. It's for the same reason I don't like sythesizers and while I enjoy many recordings with electric piano, I would in most cases prefer an acoustic piano.

I am not so restrictive in my tastes on electric guitarists, I hope, and I like McLaughlin as I said, Abercrombie, and hell I like Frisell amongst many others.

Edited by skeith
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well - I play both solid and hollow body and they both have their very distinctive sounds - the reason those older records sound good, in my opinion is:

1) older speakers (1950s) tended to have less mids and upper mids; the mids are now used as both a sweetener and a way to produce early overdrive - which is pointless anyway with high powered amps and distortion pedals - the older cones on the older speakers tended to produce a sound that had a darker bass, less mid-range, and a nice but very plain sounding high end -

2) lower powered amps - in the 1950s particularly; Wes liked an old Tweed deluxe; some other guitarists like Jim Hall (and I think Kessell) used the Gibson GA-50, high powered but not super clean with a midrange that went well with the kind of seakers they used . Blackfaced Fender amps changed the sound a lot in the 1960s, but rock guitarists did not have digital pedals than, so the sound produced, pushed hard enough, had a very nice natural rising volume and some-breakup - in the 1950s there were a lot of older, low powered amps, raised up off the ground (probably to reduce the bass), giving a nice grainyness, breaking up early in a very pleasant way. Early hollow bodies fed back very quickly, so volume was often kept low. The smaller (second generation of) hollow bodies that we see in blues photos were a little easier to handle; note also that in the later 1950s a lot of the blues guys started using Les Pauls or Les Paul knockoffs; also they loved p90 pickups, which have a lot of dirt and break up quickly and, once more, go pariticularly well with the old-styled speakers.

This is just my take on the whole guitar-sound thing. Rachel, I didn't use too many big words, so I hope this is all clear to you -

Edited by AllenLowe
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I love how this thread has become the "What Does Allen Lowe Think About the World" thread. Honestly I could give a rat's ass what you think about Pat Metheny's playing. I prefer to speak to those who have actually played and recorded with him.

You don't know me at all, so don't pre-judge me. Hell, you had to ask B-3er if he played a real B3.

I don't necessarily believe this to be true at all because there are many writers, especially on this board whom I admire and respect because they understand that there are opinions out there that are different than their own and don't mind the questions. But in your case it might apply: Those who can, do; those who can't, write about it.

Edited by rachel
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Rachel, I didn't use too many big words, so I hope this is all clear to you -

Allen, Allen, Allen. Your bad elf is getting the better of you again...

I have played guitar for over 25 years; solidbody, hollowbody, semi-hollowbody, nylon and steel string acoustic. I've played rock, jazz, and bluegrass. I am intimately aware of the issues of tone that you have been describing, and not though discussion, but through experience and observation. For all that, I had NO IDEA what your initial post in this thread was about. It made no logical sense to me. 7/4 called it "cryptic" (he is also a guitarist, and not primarily jazz). It was not clear what you were trying to say. It took several pages to sort that out. The sooner you get accept that, the sooner we can get on with our lives!!!!!

There. I feel better now. ;)

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it's a little hard to let go when Rachel persists in personal attacks -

"Hell, you had to ask B-3er if he played a real B3. I don't necessarily believe this to be true at all, but in your case it might apply: Those who can, do; those who can't, write about it. "

Rachel - you can do a little research - I'm in the New Grove dictionary of jazz as well as several of the Penguin guides - I have led recordings that included Don Byron, Doc Cheatham, Julius Hemphill, David Murray, Roswell Rudd. The REASON I asked B3 what kind of organ he played was to make a point (not surprised you missed it as you've missed a lot in this thread) - B3 replied that he would only use the real thing - and this was exactly my point about guitar sound. If you look back over this thread (Joe and Rachel) - it escalated only because you could not merely disagree with my points but had to turn your disagreement into personal attacks; it is one thing to make the point that you don't understand MY point; another to try to turn this into an issue of my coherence and writing abilities - and if you read through, several other posters were quite aware of the argument I was making -

Edited by AllenLowe
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Oh Allen, silly boy... you make it so easy to *go there*. Where's that silly editor when we need him.... Sorry

Others have questioned you throughout this thread and until now you persisted on addressing me only. You come at me and I'll come right back.

How did I know that your next post would be a listing of your curriculum vitae. :)

Edited by rachel
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I think Metheny is a good example of someone who has "exploited the qualities" of the guitar (and technology in general) in service of some forward thinking music...

Agreed. All the more reason at this point in his career to be less concerned (hung up) with the mechanics of his choosen instrument and more concerned with just making "his" music. I think that's all he was really trying to say. (Not that Pat needs me to speak for him B-) ).

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My, My, this has been fun!

Allen, you got caught triping over your own tounge; be a mench and lick your wounds in a quite place. You're not such a bad guy.

As far a real guitar sound, then you have to start with a acoustic, right? When you move to a electric, the sound has ben altered, and I respect everyones taste, but I LIKE what has been done to alter the guitar voice. I think it can come closer to that of the human voice, and then some.

I like what say, Vic Juris has done. It's very expressive and flowing almost......eh, NATURAL!

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"Allen, you got caught triping over your own tongue; be a mench and lick your wounds in a quite place. You're not such a bad guy."

well, what can I say? Rachel would disagree with the last part - now, I'm supposed to slink off into the corner - though I still maintain my points were clear if arguable. And, as for starting off with an acoustic guitar, that is true and has been done already - all electrics are essentially playable acoustically when un-plugged; some just have more resonance than others -

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Well, no gratuity for me; I still don't get it, completely... ^_^

When you guys say you want guitar that sounds like guitar, I'm not sure I understand what you mean, as my brain is not accepting the proposition that a guitar doesn't sound like a guitar. Do you mean you want the guitar to sound like an acoustic guitar? Help me out here guys; this is not my smart alec persona, I'm really trying to understand the point...

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Well, no gratuity for me; I still don't get it, completely... ^_^

When you guys say you want guitar that sounds like guitar, I'm not sure I understand what you mean, as my brain is not accepting the proposition that a guitar doesn't sound like a guitar. Do you mean you want the guitar to sound like an acoustic guitar? Help me out here guys; this is not my smart alec persona, I'm really trying to understand the point...

I think it's a tone issue.

:blink:

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Guest youmustbe

I agree 100% with Allen, now that there is a gratuity involved.

The Jazz guitar, in large part thanks to Johnny Smith, beacme the 'smooth Jazz' instrument of the 50's and beyond...God!, how many restaurants, even into the 70's would feature guitar and bass for one's dinning pleasure...some of that stayed with guitarists today...in Pop, the guitar went another way...even back in the 50's, when the Jazz guitar was the epitome of 'Cool', Rock guitar was heading some place else.

I still get goose bumps when I remember going into the booth at the record store when I was 13, and putting on the 45 of 'Sweet Little Sixteen' and hearing that guitar sound!

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