The ugly, growin greed of being a jazz/music lover

[cool_blue]

I have been very lucky to find these forums some months ago and found some great people on them. We have gotten some great buys from members on Lp and other items.

I must say though, outside these forums, Ebay, the internet, shops, etc. The amount of greed this hobby has aquired is making me sick! and thinking of just cudddleing up with my 500 Lp's, few DVD's, books, and system of what I have now and just forgetting about aquiring anymore. I think the love is being ruined by collectors and dealers driving prices up beyond what the common working man can realistically afford anymore. Seems like the fine art of haggleing (that I like to think my father tought me well) is percieved as sin these days by most, I mean how dare I ask for it cheaper!!! Maybe it's just me, but I had to share my thoughts with other jazz/music lovers.

Rant off

cb

Edited March 1, 2005 by cool_blue

[j lee]

Seems like the fine art of haggleing (that I like to think my father tought me well) is percieved as sin these days by most, I mean how dare I ask for it cheaper!!!

In what way do you think haggling has become one of the black arts? Or, I guess I mean to say, who castigates you for rooting out value?

The way I see it, haggling, when it leads to purchasing a product for which you conceivably would have spent more to acquire, leads to a boon for the consumer, called (I think) by at least some (most) economists, consumer surplus -- or, if it were practiced by a business, many would call price-gouging. I really think the two aren't any different -- so when I feel compelled to rage against the evil engines of progress, I find it sobering to reflect upon my own actions to drive prices down and thus receive the "best value."

That said, I think that the whole business of collecting, finding, and enjoying music -- which two former practices I do follow to some extent, and the third practice to the max, baby, although not having very much cash hasn't enabled me to purchase so many Mosaics and the like or blah blah -- is exactly the same phenomenon everyone else hangs the "consumerist" jacket on. It makes me feel very impure and defective many occasions to justify "having" by the degree to which I'm able to enjoy -- which enjoyment is only increased arithmetically by the number of notches one cuts on one's haggling-stick, econo-meter, CD-rack, or whatever.

Thanks for the rant -- interesting.

John

[Dan Gould]

At used LP stores, if I am interested in something that I think is a bit pricier than it deserves, I simply ask for some consideration. The main record store I shop at, I've developed a relationship with the owner and he usually comes down in price. The other store, they'll only haggle if I buy more LPs and since they often price regardless of condition, I don't often purchase there.

Ebay and internet LP sites, what can you do? Getting outbid on ebay has nothing to do with rampant greed, it has everything to do with someone valuing a record higher than you do. Nothing you can do about that.

I have very often found records I am looking for through google searches that lead me to some little shop that has it. But the purchase being impersonal - either through a shopping cart or en email or phone call, I find it impossible to engage someone in haggling. They've set their price, either I accept it or I don't. If the price is way out there, I just keep looking.

[cool_blue]

Hey, this post was not just about haggleing its about a rant of how crazy prices are getting in general ! I find I am getting priced out of my love of jazz and music and that is depressing! Haggleing was just one part of that. I am not a rich man, and I think this hobby is quickly becoming a hobby of well off folks, nothing against them. Anyway, I have some Alice Coltrane on now, and that had calmed be down, hell I may even go to church sunday : ) Thanks for the other posts, i hope I am not alone.

cb

Edited March 1, 2005 by cool_blue

[robviti]

...The amount of greed this hobby has aquired is making me sick!...

greed = people charging or spending more than i'm willing or able to pay.

sorry, but i can't agree with you on this one. i've been buying jazz recordings for over 30 years. i don't pay excessive prices simply because i choose not to. at the same time, i don't begrudge people who have the resources that allow them to get what they want at higher prices that they can afford. i also sell a few items on ebay from time to time. once in a while i might get $25 for an oop item for which i paid $8. usually i make less than $10 profit, and sometimes i just break even. remember, the buyer always determines the final price. there's no coercion involved. i assume the buyer, like me, is exercising his/her free will to make their decision.

as far as bargaining is concerned, much our society seems to have replaced this custom with the practice of offering low and fair prices to begin with. as the son of a car dealer, i assure you that if someone offers you a "bargain" by reducing their initial price by 20%, that opening quote was inflated by at least that much to begin with.

so, maybe you should enjoy your current collection for a while. if you wish, expand it slowly by purchasing select items at a price your head and heart can accept. don't waste your time or your love for jazz being jealous of others who have and can afford more than you or me.

[AfricaBrass]

as far as bargaining is concerned, much our society seems to have replaced this custom with the practice of offering low and fair prices to begin with. as the son of a car dealer, i assure you that if someone offers you a "bargain" by reducing their initial price by 20%, that opening quote was inflated by at least that much to begin with.

I really don't like haggling. There are places you do it. Like car dealers and music stores, but if I'm selling something, I set the lowest price I'll accept.

About a year ago I was selling a guitar. This guy from my area had posted on a guitar forum with a request for a cheap jazz guitar. I had my DeArmond X-155 and I offered it to him at a price that was WAY below what they even sell for on Ebay. I was trying to do him a favor and I told him this. I even sent him links to Ebay auctions for the same model, so he could see pictures. He was aware of the value.

I proceed to go through trouble to meet him with the guitar and bring and amp for him to try it out. He plays it for a while; starts trying to pick out flaws with it and then offers $50 less than what I'd told him I'd sell it for. I was already going to sell him the guitar for less than I'd paid (and I got a GREAT deal on it), but I was insulted that he'd waste my time.

I said no, picked up my guitar and amp and left.

The guy ended up spending $200 more on a Chinese guitar that wasn't as nice.

I ended up TRADING my guitar in for more than I paid for the thing, and a lot more than I was going to sell it to him.

The way I look at it with records and cds. Buy what you can afford and enjoy it. There are a lot of people here who have so much because they've been collecting for years. I used to think I had to buy everything as quickly as I could, but there'll always be a way to get the music in one form or another. This is supposed to be fun. When it stops being fun, there's something wrong.

[MartyJazz]

...The amount of greed this hobby has aquired is making me sick!...

greed = people charging or spending more than i'm willing or able to pay.

sorry, but i can't agree with you on this one. i've been buying jazz recordings for over 30 years. i don't pay excessive prices simply because i choose not to. at the same time, i don't begrudge people who have the resources that allow them to get what they want at higher prices that they can afford. i also sell a few items on ebay from time to time. once in a while i might get $25 for an oop item for which i paid $8. usually i make less than $10 profit, and sometimes i just break even. remember, the buyer always determines the final price. there's no coercion involved. i assume the buyer, like me, is exercising his/her free will to make their decision.

as far as bargaining is concerned, much our society seems to have replaced this custom with the practice of offering low and fair prices to begin with. as the son of a car dealer, i assure you that if someone offers you a "bargain" by reducing their initial price by 20%, that opening quote was inflated by at least that much to begin with.

so, maybe you should enjoy your current collection for a while. if you wish, expand it slowly by purchasing select items at a price your head and heart can accept. don't waste your time or your love for jazz being jealous of others who have and can afford more than you or me.

I'm glad you used the term "bargaining" rather than "haggling". Not to put too fine a point on it, whereas bargaining connotes negotiating for optimal price, haggling makes for a very unpleasant experience in that it involves a measure of arguing in order to produce a situation only favorable to the buyer.

Aside from that, like Dan, I generally ask for consideration when volume is involved, i.e., when I'm interested in purchasing a fair number of items and I'd like the seller to give me a break. I've often gotten that consideration at the 2nd hand CD shops I frequent. In some occasions I've also gotten that consideration when I've conveyed interest in purchasing a pricey box set. There's always room for negotiation when you're forking over more dollars than the seller is used to seeing from the typical sale.

As for the high prices associated with out of print vinyl, I can't complain as I've sold quite a few LPs to dealers who are quite willing to peel off $100 bills for what I have. The problem for the domestic jazz lover with limited funds is exacerbated somewhat now since when it comes to rare vinyl, the dollar is very low and the market is set by international (read Japanese) jazz lovers who evidently have money to spend.

[wolff]

I really can't respond to the generalization in the first post.

How about a specific example?

What LP was being offered?

What were they asking?

What did you offer?

I just do not buy the expensive LP's. It does not bug me one bit if True Blue is going for 2K.

More than enough affordable OOP originals, new originals and some absolutely fabulous re-issues to keep me happy and broke.

One other thing, many vendors pay high prices for stuff that comes in, and they may just be passing on the cost to you.

[chris olivarez]

Haggaling doesn't work for me. I would just prefer that the seller cut the crap and set a price. If I really want it and can spring for it I will. If I want it but can't afford it then it just wasn't meant to be. The times have been few and far between that I couldn't afford something I really wanted.

[Jazzmoose]

cool_blue, here's my solution (which I've adopted, pretty much): don't buy out-of-print music. If you've got 500 LPs, I know (I have around 800 CDs/LPs) that there's more jazz out there to be discovered than you have time or money to find. Try supporting today's artists by buying a few new CDs rather than yesterday's rarities. There's so much stuff out there to discover that anytime you pay inflated prices, you have no one to blame but yourself...

[Jazzmoose]

Haggaling doesn't work for me. I would just prefer that the seller cut the crap and set a price.

I agree. If I'm willing to pay the price, I'll pay it. If not, I walk. If the dealer was willing to take less, they should have said so in the first place.

[AfricaBrass]

cool_blue, here's my solution (which I've adopted, pretty much): don't buy out-of-print music. If you've got 500 LPs, I know (I have around 800 CDs/LPs) that there's more jazz out there to be discovered than you have time or money to find. Try supporting today's artists by buying a few new CDs rather than yesterday's rarities. There's so much stuff out there to discover that anytime you pay inflated prices, you have no one to blame but yourself...

That's a good solution!

[chris olivarez]

cool_blue, here's my solution (which I've adopted, pretty much):  don't buy out-of-print music.  If you've got 500 LPs, I know (I have around 800 CDs/LPs) that there's more jazz out there to be discovered than you have time or money to find.  Try supporting today's artists by buying a few new CDs rather than yesterday's rarities.  There's so much stuff out there to discover that anytime you pay inflated prices, you have no one to blame but yourself...

That's a good solution!

There is much merit with Senor Moose's idea.

[wolff]

I think the love is being ruined by collectors and dealers driving prices up beyond what the common working man can realistically afford anymore.

I do not get this statement. Sure, collectors have influenced the price of an original Cool Struttin'. Why does not having the original cause you anguish? Seems like your problem, not theirs. Plenty of re-issues of this title, both CD and vinyl, available for $10-$40.

[Jazzmoose]

I think the love is being ruined by collectors and dealers driving prices up beyond what the common working man can realistically afford anymore.

I do not get this statement. Sure, collectors have influenced the price of an original Cool Struttin'. Why does not having the original cause you anguish? Seems like your problem, not theirs. Plenty of re-issues of this title, both CD and vinyl, available for $10-$40.

No kidding; if you gotta have the original than you're just a less wealthy version of what you hate...

[RDK]

I must say though, outside these forums, Ebay, the internet, shops, etc. The amount of greed this hobby has aquired is making me sick! and thinking of just cudddleing up with my 500 Lp's, few DVD's, books, and system of what I have now and just forgetting about aquiring anymore. I think the love is being ruined by collectors and dealers driving prices up beyond what the common working man can realistically afford anymore. Seems like the fine art of haggleing (that I like to think my father tought me well) is percieved as sin these days by most, I mean how dare I ask for it cheaper!!! Maybe it's just me, but I had to share my thoughts with other jazz/music lovers.

Rant off

cb

With all due respect, that's bullshit.

If you're talking - which it seems you are - about buying old, oop, and collectible jazz LPs as collectibles, then you're gonna have to pay what the market will bear. That's just the way it goes in all hobbies where collectibles are involved. Greed has nothing to do with it. No one needs (or is forcing you) to drop hundreds on old BN deep groove LPs (or whatever) - you choose to do that since it's your "hobby."

If you're interested in the music, well then this has to be considered some sort of "golden age" of jazz reissues as there seems to be more back catalog available than any time that I can remember in the past 25 years that I've been listening and, yes, collecting. With RVGs available for less than $10 each, with the entire OJC catalog available cheaply on emusic, with non-collectible LPs available dirt cheap (I rarely pay more than a buck each) you can't be complaining about too many jazz labels trying to gouge you.

But if your hobby is collecting old, rare, and oop LPs then you have to be willing to pay what they are worth...

[andybleaden]

Thats why I chucked em all in and went to cd and ok yes I miss LPs but have virtually 98% of what I had and wanted on LP ( with a few burns ) but I have a much larger more diverse collection and do not have the hassle anymore....and then with mp3's well need I say more

I can sit here at work with 300 lps in my pocket ( and they sound great) ...mostly rips of my own cds and its here ...ready to play and rockin to.

Spent too long searching for decent copies or japanese vinyl and got some awful scratched vinyl to go back I am afraid...always missing the covers of them though

The other thing I did was sell what ever did not work for me or copies and that funds the new releases or reissues.

I am also at that point now with the Blue Note collection where the missing items are single figures and or never been on cd...even managed to find a few of them too

[Guest che]

I must say though, outside these forums, Ebay, the internet, shops, etc.  The amount of greed this hobby has aquired is making me sick! and thinking of just cudddleing up with my 500 Lp's, few DVD's, books, and system of what I have now and just forgetting about aquiring anymore. I think the love is being ruined by collectors and dealers driving prices up beyond what the common working man can realistically afford anymore. Seems like the fine art of haggleing (that I like to think my father tought me well) is percieved as sin these days by most,  I mean how dare I ask for it cheaper!!!  Maybe it's just me, but I had to share my thoughts with other jazz/music lovers.

Rant off

cb

With all due respect, that's bullshit.

If you're talking - which it seems you are - about buying old, oop, and collectible jazz LPs as collectibles, then you're gonna have to pay what the market will bear. That's just the way it goes in all hobbies where collectibles are involved. Greed has nothing to do with it. No one needs (or is forcing you) to drop hundreds on old BN deep groove LPs (or whatever) - you choose to do that since it's your "hobby."

If you're interested in the music, well then this has to be considered some sort of "golden age" of jazz reissues as there seems to be more back catalog available than any time that I can remember in the past 25 years that I've been listening and, yes, collecting. With RVGs available for less than $10 each, with the entire OJC catalog available cheaply on emusic, with non-collectible LPs available dirt cheap (I rarely pay more than a buck each) you can't be complaining about too many jazz labels trying to gouge you.

But if your hobby is collecting old, rare, and oop LPs then you have to be willing to pay what they are worth...

I agree with some of what you say, it is indeed a 'Golden age' of reissues, even in the part of the world I live in, it is possible to get a Miles Davis album or two, or even something by Andrew Hill.

What seems much harder is to get anything later the say 1990! Reissues swamp the market, which at least in my experience makes it much harder to find albums from Greg Osby or Soweto Kinch.

Che.

[robviti]

Reissues swamp the market, which at least in my experience makes it much harder to find albums from Greg Osby or Soweto Kinch.

gee, i always come across osby titles in the used bins of the brick-and-mortars. a quick look over at half.com shows zero available for 2.99, inner circle for $5, invisible hand for 4.75, and black book for only 98 cents. where are you looking? admittedly, soweto kinch's lone recording on the dune label is harder to find, but it's there too.

[Guest che]

Reissues swamp the market, which at least in my experience makes it much harder to find albums from Greg Osby or Soweto Kinch.

gee, i always come across osby titles in the used bins of the brick-and-mortars. a quick look over at half.com shows zero available for 2.99, inner circle for $5, invisible hand for 4.75, and black book for only 98 cents. where are you looking? admittedly, soweto kinch's lone recording on the dune label is harder to find, but it's there too.

Yeh I guess it is all about the place you live.

You would have to go far in my part of the UK to find Osby.

Che.

[AfricaBrass]

Reissues swamp the market, which at least in my experience makes it much harder to find albums from Greg Osby or Soweto Kinch.

gee, i always come across osby titles in the used bins of the brick-and-mortars. a quick look over at half.com shows zero available for 2.99, inner circle for $5, invisible hand for 4.75, and black book for only 98 cents. where are you looking? admittedly, soweto kinch's lone recording on the dune label is harder to find, but it's there too.

Yeh I guess it is all about the place you live.

You would have to go far in my part of the UK to find Osby.

Che.

That's too bad.

I used half.com to fill in the gaps of my 90's Blue Note collection.

[Guest che]

Reissues swamp the market, which at least in my experience makes it much harder to find albums from Greg Osby or Soweto Kinch.

gee, i always come across osby titles in the used bins of the brick-and-mortars. a quick look over at half.com shows zero available for 2.99, inner circle for $5, invisible hand for 4.75, and black book for only 98 cents. where are you looking? admittedly, soweto kinch's lone recording on the dune label is harder to find, but it's there too.

Yeh I guess it is all about the place you live.

You would have to go far in my part of the UK to find Osby.

Che.

That's too bad.

I used half.com to fill in the gaps of my 90's Blue Note collection.

AfricaBrass.

Trying to get any type of jazz is not that easy for me, getting any 'post modern' stuff is almost impossible unless I go via the internet. The nearest outlet is 20 miles away, and even them I often cannot find what I am looking for.

But there is plenty of Miles Davis back stuff B-)

Che.

[Kreilly]

...The amount of greed this hobby has aquired is making me sick!...

greed = people charging or spending more than i'm willing or able to pay.

sorry, but i can't agree with you on this one. i've been buying jazz recordings for over 30 years. i don't pay excessive prices simply because i choose not to. at the same time, i don't begrudge people who have the resources that allow them to get what they want at higher prices that they can afford.

I'm very sympathetic with the original post. Half.com, ebay stores, and Amazon marketplace charge excessive amounts for htf and oop titles. Say I have a disc that I don't want anymore and I can sell it for five times what I paid for it, should I? I simply would not, barring financial distress, sell a cd for $50 that I paid 7 or 8 dollars for. $15 seems more reasonable to me and I'd prefer to sell it to a real fan. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If, as a community, jazz buyers refused to pay excessive amounts then prices would be more reasonable and accessible to those of us struggling to make ends meet. That's my two cents.

Kevin

[AfricaBrass]

I'm very sympathetic with the original post. Half.com, ebay stores, and Amazon marketplace charge excessive amounts for htf and oop titles. Say I have a disc that I don't want anymore and I can sell it for five times what I paid for it, should I? I simply would not, barring financial distress, sell a cd for $50 that I paid 7 or 8 dollars for. $15 seems more reasonable to me and I'd prefer to sell it to a real fan. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If, as a community, jazz buyers refused to pay excessive amounts then prices would be more reasonable and accessible to those of us struggling to make ends meet. That's my two cents.

Kevin

I understand where you're coming from, Kevin. I've been there myself. I think the best idea is to follow Jazzmoose's lead and not bother with OOP titles. I know that sounds like a drag, but it seems like all this limited edition and OOP stuff the I really searched for has been reissued again. I remember paying $16 for the Blue Note Collector's choice reissues in the mid-90's. Now it seems like everytime I turn around, another one of those titles is becomming an RVG. Same goes for the Conns.

I used to obsess about buying things before they went out of print. Now I don't worry (except for Mosaic sets) because I figure it'll come around again in better sound. If I really have to have it, I'm sure I can find a copy (or someone to make a copy) somewhere.

I seriously used to stress about this stuff. I was dumb, this is supposed to be fun.

P.S. Welcome to the board, Kevin!

Edited March 5, 2005 by AfricaBrass

[robviti]

I'm very sympathetic with the original post. Half.com, ebay stores, and Amazon marketplace charge excessive amounts for htf and oop titles.

for some titles, that's true. i just don't buy them. i find a lot of great stuff on these sites at reasonable prices.

I simply would not, barring financial distress, sell a cd for $50 that I paid 7 or 8 dollars for. $15 seems more reasonable to me and I'd prefer to sell it to a real fan.

so someone who has the money to spend isn't a real fan?

If, as a community, jazz buyers refused to pay excessive amounts then prices would be more reasonable and accessible to those of us struggling to make ends meet.

well, here i agree with you, sort of. as i said, i don't pay excessive prices simply because they're...well, excessive! on the other hand, the fact that some people are willing to pay more than me hasn't stopped me from building a nice collection of the music i love. i've purchased close to 2,000 jazz cds, all at reasonable prices, over a period of time. some people (not necessarily anyone here) seem to feel entitled to have everything they want, right now, with little or no personal sacrifice. the idea that people who are struggling to pay for food and rent should be able to easily obtain the rarest of jazz recordings--a genre that is enjoyed by only a small minority of people--makes no sense to me. if jazz was appreciated by a larger audience, it probably would be more widely available at lower prices. i'm not saying we should keep the music out of the hands of those who have little or no resources. there are ways to make jazz more accessible. that's where libraries, public television and radio, local jazz societies, and other cultural institutions provide a great service. you can get a lot, you just can't have it all.

btw, welcome kevin. i hope you don't mind a little debate. after all, it's a music filled with passion.

Edited March 5, 2005 by jazzshrink