Hank Mobley

[sal]

In spirit of the "confessional" mood we are all in courtesy of the great thread started by Connisseur Series 500, I wanted to bring the topic of Hank Mobley up for discussion.

In the 4 years or so that I've been listening to jazz seriously, I have acquired quite a number of recordings that feature Hank Mobley as a sideman. In addition, I even have two of his own recordings, "Soul Station" and "No Room for Squares". What makes is so strange is that even though I enjoy most of the albums I have that feature him, he has never once made me take a step back and marvel at his playing. While I feel that his playing is solid, it really doesn't do anything for me.

I guess that I've always heard alot of talk, especially on the old BNBB, about Hank Mobley and his greatness, how he was unfairly underrated,etc... Even alot of musicians, new and old, seem to love Hank and his style of playing. I don't know, I guess for me, he just seems to "be there". He has never made me say "God, this guy really sucks", nor has he ever made me say "Wow, this guy is a great player!". He just seems to be a filler saxophone player, who while he filled in the tenor spot in many great settings, never really stood out on anything. I guess I don't particulary like his style of playing. Strange, since I love albums like No Room for Squares, Cornbread, the Miles Davis Blackhawk albums, Six Pieces of Silver, Whistle Stop, New Perspective, various Jazz Messenger albums, etc.

So, what do you all think about Hank? Especially regarding his skills on the tenor? Does anyone feel the same, or am I just not understanding something?

[Templejazz]

Although not a true innovator, Hank was a master of the language.

I like his melodic ideas, his style, and articulation. There is a nuance in his playing I just dig. I can't quite describe it, but it's a combination of his compositional style, his melodic motif construction and the timbre he gets from his axe. I like his tone and it is quite distinctive. As a versatile player, he couldalso combine warm, soft passionate legato balladry with fiery stacatto, chicken picken biting lines.

For me, albums like "No Room For Squares", "Straight No Filter" and "Soul Station" make me sit back and contemplate, "AHHHHHH, that's the sh!t right there"

Not only a great composer, he often surrounded himself with great players and USUALLY great players = great chemistry

Just my two cents

Personal taste is a big part but these are just some things to think about

Edited June 12, 2003 by Templejazz

[catesta]

He was a great composer as well.

I too think so.

For me, Mobley is the shit. He is among my favorites for sure.

[pryan]

In my opinion, Hank was an MF, but hey that's just one man's opinion, right? His playing, at least on the stuff that I've heard, has been uniformly or perhaps consistently, good. Of course he had some sessions that weren't as "on" as others, but his consistency in producing marvellously inventive lines, coupled with a great tone and style of phrasing is what stands out to me. He was, for the most part, a "licks" based player, but so are a LOT of people. It was his ability to come up with the licks at oppurtune times in a tune, as well as the stringing together of ideas that made him such a fantastic tenor man.

BTW, if you want to check out some Mobley that's slightly different (in terms of his soloing, etc.) try and find BREAKTHROUGH!, with Cedar Walton, Sam Jones, Billy Higgins, and another reed player who's name I can't remember at the moment. Jsngry recommended this on the other BB and I found it to be quite a revelation.

[BruceH]

Not only was he a good composer, he consistantly gave his tunes witty names, a rarer talent than you might think. "Don't Get Too Hip," "Funk In Deep Freeze," ---dozens more like that. These are great titles.

[catesta]

BTW, if you want to check out some Mobley that's slightly different (in terms of his soloing, etc.) try and find BREAKTHROUGH!, with Cedar Walton, Sam Jones, Billy Higgins, and another reed player who's name I can't remember at the moment. Jsngry recommended this on the other BB and I found it to be quite a revelation.

Charles Davis was the other player.

This is the 32 Jazz cover.

[jazzbo]

Mobley was one of the first Blue Note artists I explored, because I knew his work with Miles, and because Wynton Kelly was on many of his BN dates I figured I would like him, and I did.

What I like about him is hard to express. He's so hip, I know that doesn't necessarily mean much, but he doesn't scream for attention the way say Rollins does (in a good way, you know) nor does he MAKE you listen closely to hear what he's doing. You can swing along listening to his early sixties leader dates for example and miss how cool his playing is because it's all so one piece: his supple and mellow tone, his composing, his soloing which has those cool little rhythmic things within, and his blending in on the heads.

I hear Pres in his playing, in the way he constructs a narrative in his solos, in the way he approaches the swing. He adds drama to the music too, in a laid back way. And Charlie Parker is in there too. How he's put his influences together makes a style of his own. His tone makes him stand out, it's just so appealing to my ears. And I'm one of those people who sometimes imagine he hears bits of the musician's personality in their music, over the course of many recordings, and Hank just seems to me to have been a person with people skills and a warm nature. That's what I hear coming from the music. . . .

So I'm a fan! It took quite a few recordings for me to really get this deeply into him, but when I did, it was an affection that I've had for some time since.

[Dan Gould]

The other sax player on Breakthrough is Charles Davis.

Sal, my question to you would be, what tenors do make you stand up and go "Wow this guy's a great player"? Hank was famously called "The Middleweight Champion" of the tenor-maybe the fact that he is neither "heavy" like Coltrane" or "light" like Pres and his disciples makes him sound, if I understand your evaluation, mediocre?

Hank to me is a terrific composer and a supremely hip player.

For what its worth, I do think that the ups and downs of the last 15 years of Hank's life, combined with the critical reappraisal of his playing has given rise to a certain image of the unfairly neglected master. That isn't to say that I don't think he wasn't an unfairly neglected master! Just that there may be at work here a certain "you have to dig Hank!" attitude.

You don't have to dig Hank, Sal.

But if you have ears and an ounce of soul, you would.

[Templejazz]

Hopefully Savoy will reissue this baby ASAP.

Edited June 12, 2003 by Templejazz

[tonym]

Check out 'Old Folks' on Miles' Someday My Prince Will Come.

His solo is one of the outstanding moments of his tenure with Miles, and on that album in particular. Given that the other great 'moment' was Coltrane's solo on Teo, then he's in good company.

big up Hank --- Middleweight Champion --- BTW when i first started playing alto, i told my tutor that i wanted to sound like Getz & Mobley playing alto.

[JSngry]

Emotionally, I dig Hank's vibe - cool but with plenty of feeling, and a lack of machismo bluster (not there's anything wron with that, but the contrast is refreshing when it's honest). He projects (to me anyway), a sensitivity and vulnerabilty that coexists in varying proportions with a sheild of inpenetrable (at least up until the late 60s) hipness. The result is an emotional tension that I, and I suspect many others, find compelling and irresistable.

Musically, the guy was just SO freakin hip (meaning for me sophisticated and soulful, knowing and feeling, in equally highly developed portions) in every way. His timing was impeccable, his attention to detail (particularly revealed in the later recordings, where what he leaves out is at least as important as what he puts in) second to none, his harmonic awareness SO developed, his tone completely his own, just everything about him was unique and highly refined. To play like he played, in all of his phases, requires an incredible amount of focus and confidence. One misstep, one lapse in concentration or misplaced/misplayed note and you're screwed, big time.

Hank was not an extremely extroverted player, nor was he one of those guys who played obviously and dazzlingly brilliant shit. Nor was he one of those guys who was always expanding their pallate. If anythng, he was about contracting his. If you don't "get" him, well hey - you don't get him. Probably a personality conflict between the two of you in there somewhere. Besides, nobody gets everything all the time. But there's plenty of meat there if you can make the connection.

[Brad]

I really can't put my finger on it but I just love his music, especially his 50s to early 60s stuff. He's not screamin' out at you. He's the personification of funk. His sound is mellow and Mr. Hard Bop of that era. If you love hard bop, you'll love Hank. My first Mosaic and one of the first people I listened to, a la Lon, was Hank. Make the investment and you'll be a fan for sure.

[sal]

It's really interesting to read your posts.

Dan, to answer your question, when it comes to tenor sax work, I'm quite easily impressed. Guys from Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins, to Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane, from Fathead Newman and Sam Rivers, to Joshua Redman and Chris Potter have all blown me away at some point or another. Its funny because I consider myself to be much less critical on sax players than I am on other musicians. I don't think my opinion of Hank comes from the fact that he's neither a heavyweight nor a lightweight. I enjoy the different styles of tenor sax that have emerged throughout the decades. I just don't hear anything special in Hank's playing. I'll admit that he was a fine composer, had cool names for his songs, and surrounded himself with the best players. But it just always seems to me that his skills are mediocre. His tone is decent, but I much prefer Joe Henderson's. His ability to improvise over a melody is decent, but is nothing compared to Sonny Rollins. He could handle complex high tempo chord changes alright, but nothing like John Coltrane or Johnny Griffin could. And he could play a nice ballad, but sounds like a novice compared to Dexter Gordon. To these ears at least.

I don't know.....like I said, I don't think he's a bad player. He can hold down any tune without a complaint from me. He just doesn't stand out at all. I wish I did get it, but I just don't.

[Soulstation1]

my fav mosaic mobley titles

#1 base on balls

hi groove, low feedback

don't get too hip

gettin' into something

wham and they're off

[Templejazz]

I don't know.....like I said, I don't think he's a bad player. He can hold down any tune without a complaint from me. He just doesn't stand out at all. I wish I did get it, but I just don't.

Out of curiousity, what is your take on Blue Mitchell?

The reason I ask is because I tend to put Hank and Blue in the same ballpark; great composers, language masters, but not real innovators.

Another thing, I try not to do too much critical comparisons between players. Instead of hearing the things in Hank's playing that other people did better, hear them for what they are. ( or something like that ) I guess it's kinda hard to explain and it's all just personal preferences.

[sal]

I actually love Blue Mitchell! His work with Horace Silver is some of my favorite trumpet playing, and I recently picked up his Mosaic set and I think its great. I understand what you mean by neither of them being innovators. But to my ears, Blue has a high level of skill, and lots of talent. To me, he is a gifted trumpet player. Hank Mobley to me just sounds like any old sax player that you can find in any jazz club in any city anywhere. I don't hear anything special about him. And also, I didn't mean to make my post sound like the only reason I don't dig Hank is because other players are better. That's not why I feel the way I do at all. I always try to look at each artist as an individual. I was just using those players as references to tenor players that I feel are great players. And I don't think Hank fits the bill as a "great" player.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Sal,

I know what you mean to an extent about Mobley; I find that there are some artists I just draw a blank with (in the prevalent spirit of confession, the guy who leaves me cold is Miles Davis, but shhh! That's not a smart thing to say around here )

I find that I don't uniformly feel lukewarm about Mobley's playing: Workout, for example, I think is absolutely fantastic; and I also enjoy his playing on Hancock's 'My Point of View', and lots besides...But sometimes, I do react to him pretty indifferently. I guess it just shows that music is too deep to pin down by ideas such as tone (I like his tone), phrasing (I like that too), note choices (fine by me), and various other things..!

[David Ayers]

Hank Mobley to me just sounds like any old sax player that you can find in any jazz club in any city anywhere. I don't hear anything special about him.

I hold no brief for Mark Knopfler, but the violinist in my band once asked me why the big deal about Dire Straits. I said whatever I said, about his technique and so on, but she just said - 'if it is so special how is it any pub you go into there is a band playing 'Sultans of Swing' exactly like Dire Straits?' In those days (late 80s) she wasn't exaggerating much, and it seems to me something like that is true of Hank, who however much affection you may have for him (squeaks and all and he really DOES squeak - SNF requires to be inserted into the palyer with a thick coating of WD 40 - uhhhh, that's a light lubricating oil, chunter chunter....) is always (sentence resumes) vulnerable to the charge from the unsympathetic of going straight down the middle. He's good though, just not in your face, and I prefer him over some more dramatic tenors who perhaps have more of a following.

[Soul Stream]

I think Hank represents, although in a larger way, a segment of musician (no matter what genre) that we all recognize. These are the guys who get all the gigs in town. Everyone wants them on their sessions or on their bandstand. They are always in demand. And though, usually not the most exciting guys in town or abroad, they represent the highest achievement as players in a way. That is, they are GREAT listeners, technically proficient, flexible, creative, distinctive and consistent like a bitch. They are usually the GLUE in a scene. Never garnering much specific praise, but every musician KNOWS they are THE MAN.

Hank is that man.

[Late]

Good point, Temple, and I agree with what you're saying. I think it's difficult not to compare musicians with certain other musicians, however. It seems a natural (and not necessarily critical) process. And for that reason, I'd say that my own "assessment" of Mobley is in alignment with Sal's.

But ... I still dig Mobley. His 50's work, in my opinion, is most essential from his output. The Mosaic is going to be sorely missed by new fans when it goes out of print. His sessions with: (1) Curtis Porter and Bill Hardman, and (2) Donald Byrd and John Jenkins, are two of my favorite I-want-something-hip-but-not-too-demanding Blue Notes to have a nice, strong cup of coffee by. Mobley, as simplistic as it sounds, makes me feel good. I don't think I've ever really gotten excited by one of his solos, but I do nod my head, and sometimes even find myself saying aloud: yeah.

Check out his work on Julius Watkins' Blue Note effort, too. Tonally, it's some of the best Hank, in my opinion.

His 60's work, I must admit, does begin to lose my interest. (Though I would list Dippin' as a notable exception.) I often wish (and this will sound like a slam — it's not supposed to be) that Blue Note would have offered more recording dates to other tenors of the period. I'd "trade" The Turnaround for another John Gilmore session, for instance. Or Straight, No Filter for a Clifford Jordan Blue Note project of the time. And I especially wish Porter (Shafi Hadi) would have had a chance to make a Blue Note record under his own name.

[chris]

I'm not sure about Mobley-- I've got a number of his albums but really need to do more listening. But with someone like Knopfler-- well, with almost any good guitar player-- it isn't about the people imitating them. I have seen a LOT of amateur guitar players that can play incredibly fast and technical music note-for-note, whether Malmsteen or Van Halen or Eric Johnson or Jeff Beck. I wish I could But it is the fact that Knopfler et al are doing it first and have made the music their own. As a guitar wannabe I learned to appreciate a lot of musicians I don't really care much for in other ways... I imagine it will be the same way in jazz eventually.

[Ed S]

I was listening to disc one of the Mobley set this morning. Avila and Tequila and Walkin the Fence are monsters. I love that 50s Mobley set. Lower Stratosphere is the ultimate in cool B) Fin De L'Affaire is gorgeous.

This set is not only essential - it is mandatory. Get it before it goes OOP

Edited June 12, 2003 by Ed Swinnich

[Guest Mnytime]

BTW, if you want to check out some Mobley that's slightly different (in terms of his soloing, etc.) try and find BREAKTHROUGH!, with Cedar Walton, Sam Jones, Billy Higgins, and another reed player who's name I can't remember at the moment.  Jsngry recommended this on the other BB and I found it to be quite a revelation.

Charles Davis was the other player.

This is the 32 Jazz cover.

Dammit. I saw this in a Used store the other day on the way back from Chemo and for some idiotic reason (which I blame on the effects of Chemo and Morphine on a normally highly intelligent person ) I pased on it since I didn't recall if it was worth getting or the quality of the sound.

Edited June 12, 2003 by Mnytime

[John L]

Interesting thread!

Yea, I can understand most of the opinions being expressed here. Mobley was not love at first listen for me. In fact, I still might not put him up among my very favorite tenors. That said, I have come to appreciate him quite a bit. I agree that he was phenomenal at what he did. In many ways, he was THE hard bop tenor.

One thing that is deceiving about Mobley (from my point of view) is that, as I believe somewhat noted earlier, it is easy to listen to his records as pleasant background music. But Mobley will not get under your skin that way. He will not leap out at you like Hawk, Pres, or Trane, making you put down what you are doing and soak it all in. To really enjoy Mobley, you have to muster the energy for attentive listening. It is in the subtlety, the lyricism, the understated but potent swing, the fluency, the VOICE within. You need to really listen and concentrate on what Mobley is doing to get the payback. Certainly, other great tenors will also repay any undivided attention you give them. But Mobley NEEDS that attention to make his greatness known.

[danasgoodstuff]

In the liner notes to ___________(I forget which Mobley LP), I believe it was Larry Kart who pointed out that for Hank (and Lee, however different they may be otherwise), you have to listen to what the're doing IN RELATION TO the other players, especially the drummer (this explains why Hank and Lee each did so many in a row with Billy Higgins). I think that heightened, or perhaps misdirected, expectations may be at play here. finally I think that to some extent, appreciation of Hank may be blocked for younger listeners by a long-term cultural shift that tends to discount everything smooth/fluid. Making it sound easy isn't easy; guys like Hank struggled long and hard to get that SEEMINGLY easy flow. Not to make it sound like work or mandatory; hopefully it'll sneak up on you someday and you'll go "oh man, how could I not dig that!" If not, there's lots of other beauty to dig in the world.