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BFT #24 - Discussion (Disc 1)


king ubu

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As many have received my discs and I already got a few PMs and mails with remarks on my BFT, I open the discussion now.

I checked with Cary/.:.impossible and he's ok with me starting the fun.

Now: you will hardly be able to use AMG with my discs (some already noticed that...), and you'll hardly be able to track down any album a particular track was taken from.

My intent was to share rare and great music, most of which you may never have heard or just heard about. So I'd enjoy reading comments on how you like the music much more than watching you play the "detective game" (sure, do that, too, it IS fun).

There are some "big names" hidden on the discs, I'll be interested in seeing if you'll be able to pick them out or not (I guess you will...) and I'll be watching the fun as often as I could and try to chime in with some mysterious hints now and then, too.

Enough talking - let's par-tay!

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So I'd enjoy reading comments on how you like the music much more than watching you play the "detective game" (sure, do that, too, it IS fun).

Hi, Flurin!

Just starting with disc 1. Nice openers!

Sorry but, since you allowed us to do so, I couldn´t resist "playing the detective game". :w

And it was quite easy for Track 5, obviously Coleman Hawkins´ "Mop mop".

Just because of the instrumentation (ts, tp, vib, g, p, b, d), and "with a little help from my friend" (Lord, that is B-) ), I concluded Track 5 is included in this compilation:

EDIT: link removed by kind request of our dear compiler

By some Swiss Be Bop Team, and recorded on Basel, January 31, 1948. Among others, there´s a cheesy trumpet player, a couple of burgers for tenor sax and piano, and some Italian horse on guitar. ;)

Looking forward to listening to the rest of the disc.

Cheers,

Agustín

Edited by EKE BBB
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Thank s Flurin both discs are great, I've listened to both many times over and keep forgetting to make notes on who's playing, from what I can remember

Disc 1

Track 1 - gotta be Big Ben plus Nordic types

Track 2- early Hawk ???

Track 3 Hawk with Fletcher Henderson

Track 4 Hawk- pre B &S with Europeans

as you see I'm not going to get any prizes here !!!!

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These 2 disc sets have so much music and cover so many bases it could be a potted history of jazz. Certainly makes me aware that my listening in jazz is pretty tightly constrained. Nothing I can definitively identify but plenty to enjoy. Mentioned a couple of names below since they've already been id'd and will come back with more when I've listened more...

1. Know the tune just can’t quite think of it. Guessing late Webster probably in Europe... Not fabulously recorded and the piano is far from great but given the live setting it’s a lovely momento of a gig I’d have loved.

2. No idea, great to listen to 78s (that sound like 78s) on my Windows Media Player! Bill Gates would be chuffed. Fun and a nice clarinet but not my thing and mercifully short ;-)

3. Similar to the above

4. Much more interesting. I love the sound on something like this though its technically poor. Kind of like time travel, takes me to somewhere in the past I can barely imagine…

5. Bop with vibes, no idea who it is

6. Nice mainstream date and modern sound no idea on personnel

7. Nice arrangement, unusual tempo and energy level. Helen Merrill would be my only guess though not something I’ve heard. I’ve kinda gone off vocalists lately maybe time to reacquaint myself?

8. Nice, the more I listen to jazz, the more I like unusual instruments and arrangements Standard lineups and blues themes begin to sound samey unless you are there or they are quite outstanding. I like this but can’t identify personnel or even which button instrument is being played. Grew up on Scottish Country Dance Music so the sound of accordions and Jimmy Shand will always have a place in my heart.

9. No idea and nice enough

10. Free-ish piano and though I have hundreds of piano discs can’t quite identify this. They’re having a good time certainly and pushing pretty hard

11. Off in a different direction again. Although its something I’ve never heard I’d guess something like late 60’s Herbie movie soundtrack. Great fun here too

12. Best yet. Great start with droning bass and hot sax on top with tablas.

13.

14.

15.

16. Interesting chart (a bit cheesy/funky though) and large band studio band for TV theme quality but reminds me of Lester Bowie’s Brass Fantasy stuff, not that I’ve heard much and not in a long time (Always loved his Donald Duck meets Miles Davis skit on the ECM double! Wish I still had that.)

17. Bill Frisell in Power Tools? Live and in great sound. I love that studio album and it is a scandal that its unavailable. Make a great Deluxe package with a live album (if this is them…

18. sweet

Edited with additions

Edited by fent99
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Whew, lots of mystery here. I'm afraid I can identify more tune titles than artists and that's not a good sign for me.

1) "Old Folks", gotta be Ben. I mean Harold Ashby tried mightily for that sound but Ben's the real deal and he kind of liked this tune alot.

2) Very short excerpt, sounds a little like "Indiana", but no idea of who or when

3) no idea

4) "I'm in the Mood for Love", but not Hawk's '44 version although the tenor certainly is influenced by him.

5) "Mop Mop", can't say much else. Not one of those tunes that does anything for me.

6) pleasant enough, that's about it.

7) Helen Merrill, could not possibly be anyone else. She's hit or miss with most people. Hey, Will Friedwald in his various books on singers won't even go near her. On the whole, I've always liked her.

8) Benny Golson's "Whisper Not", my favorite track on this disc. Only jazz accordionist I know is Mat Matthews of whom I have an old Brunswick LP, but don't know if he ever recorded this tune.

9) I really should know this tune but can't place it. Also no idea of the tenor or trumpet.

10) The "tune", i.e, "E.B.", is one of my favorite early Cecil pieces on Candid and this pianist is certainly coming from him, but somehow I don't think it's Cecil.

I've got more work to do, obviously.

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Great Set, very varied!

1-1. Tatum Webster? Nah, piano not ornate enough. Lester with Nat Cole and a whispered rumour of Buddy Rich? Nah, it's live. Stan Getz with Kenny Barron? Thats my final waver.

1-2. Coleman Hawkins featured with Fletcher Henderson

1-3. Fletcher Henderson. I just can't come up with a better gues for either 2 or 3.

1-4 Good tenor from the days before good sound. Chu Berry?

1-5. Lionel Hampton?

1-6 Pretty sure this is a well known Horace Silver tune. Sister Sadie maybe?

1-7 Anita O'Day?

1-8 Can accordion really be this good?! Richard Galliano the only name I barely know.

1-9 Hard to guess anybody but Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers here.

1-10 Post Cecil, I'll choose Marilyn Crispell over Myra Melford for my guess.

1-11 Sounds like a Blue Note boogaloo, late 60's - early 70s style. So why am I guessing Bobby Watson.

1-12 Love the droning bass, I'm suspecting Thomas Chapin, although Arthur Blythe and Rob Brown also came to mind.

1-13 I was suspecting Anthony Braxton & Evan Parker until the bass came in, no bass on that date. I'll still go with Braxton.

1-14 Hampton Hawes

1-15 Quite lovely. Is this the Don Grolnick London concert that just came out?

1-16 Funky. There's an album where Charles Earland plays Rhodes instead of organ. This it?

1-17 Ayler's Ghosts on guitar Marc Ribot?

1-18 Duke's announcement. : )

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This will be kind of brief and incomplete, but it's all I've had time for so far...

1. “Old Folks”. Very lovely treatment. I’m not familiar with this recording... sounds like a group of veteran swing era players... a Ben Websterish sound.

2. Short & sweet. This is too early for me to have much of a clue.

3. Another oldie. Familiar tune, but can’t name it. This strikes me as a late 20’s or early 30’s composition... an era of music that I must admit I haven’t found much time for as of yet.

4. Is that “I’m in the mood for love”? Sounds like those changes, at least. Very nice version, but again predating my area of knowledge.

5. This sounds like a group of swingers beginning to get into the bop thing. Still has a pretty rigid feel rhythmically, and they’re not playing many altered chords in the solo section, but the head is boppish (familiar again, but not familiar enough...)

6. Another tune I recognize, but can’t name. I’m sure I own it, although not 100% sure I have this same version (only 99% ;)). Classic hard bop style... but I’m struggling to identify any of the players right now. I may end up kicking myself on this one.

7. Helen Merrill. At first I thought this might be from the Brownie Emarcy box, but no. That sounds like it could be Max on drums, though. I don’t own much Merrill... just never really took to the sound of her voice, although I think she’s great in many ways (I really appreciate her choices in material, for example).

8. Golson’s “Whisper Not”, played on a much maligned instrument that I have come to enjoy more and more in recent years. I don’t know who might be playing here, but I really dig it!! Damn... I should have paid closer attention to the accordion threads.

9. Yet another tune I recognize the sound of, but can’t name. Not sure I own this particular version. A nice take on the blues here, the solos are fine, though perhaps not highly memorable. I like the way the pianist comps. For some reason I’m thinking this might be on Savoy (gut feeling only).

-

11. A little funk, a little electric piano, electric bass... seems we’re progressing through the history of jazz chronologically. I’ll have to listen to this again... but I have no ideas yet.

--

14. That rhythm reminds me of “Poinciana”, which makes me want to say Ahmad Jamal... but I don’t know who this is. Must listen further.

15. Wow, beautiful opening... nice tune, nice mix of sounds/colors. Not crazy about the trombone solo; but the tenor and piano sound very nice. This had kind of a familiar vibe to it, but I can’t say for certain that I’ve heard it before.

--

18. I’ll say EE (with a K in there somewhere) ;)

Wow, this was very challenging, despite the familiarity of several tunes... or maybe because of the familiarity of several tunes! Argh! B-)

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Thanks to those of you who posted guesses so far! I'll wait with dropping hints a bit longer, just let me say that the animalist guesses are quite on the mark. Also, Merrill is the easy one, and that vocal snippet is rather easy, too, but that's not really part of the guessing game, anyway.

What I can say at this point is that the compositions #1, #4, #5, #8 have been nailed. #7 was never called by name, but that one's obvious in that respect, too.

Marty: not sure what Taylor tune you mean wiht #10, cann you tell me? Is there one called "E.B." (don't have the Candids handy and falling asleep soon, too late to google any now). This is not a Taylor composition, at least not identified as such on my source, but I'd like to give a comparative listen!

Keep it comin'! And Jim & Marty, please post more on those tracks you're missing yet!

ubu

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Marty: not sure what Taylor tune you mean wiht #10, cann you tell me? Is there one called "E.B." (don't have the Candids handy and falling asleep soon, too late to google any now). This is not a Taylor composition, at least not identified as such on my source, but I'd like to give a comparative listen!

Keep it comin'! And Jim & Marty, please post more on those tracks you're missing yet!

ubu

Well, I have the Mosaic Cecil Taylor on Candid. The cut titled "E.B." is an old favorite of mine having first heard it on one of two Barnaby LP reissues of the Candid material and your track #10 has the same theme, so why your cut has a composer other than Cecil and a different title as well, is anyone's guess. Since you have the Candids, check it out for yourself.

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Marty: not sure what Taylor tune you mean wiht #10, cann you tell me? Is there one called "E.B." (don't have the Candids handy and falling asleep soon, too late to google any now). This is not a Taylor composition, at least not identified as such on my source, but I'd like to give a comparative listen!

Keep it comin'! And Jim & Marty, please post more on those tracks you're missing yet!

ubu

Well, I have the Mosaic Cecil Taylor on Candid. The cut titled "E.B." is an old favorite of mine having first heard it on one of two Barnaby LP reissues of the Candid material and your track #10 has the same theme, so why your cut has a composer other than Cecil and a different title as well, is anyone's guess. Since you have the Candids, check it out for yourself.

I will, thanks! Taylor definitely (and openly admitted by the artist concerned) is a huge influence. I just couldn't remember that title! Will check it out tomorrow, it's bedtime now...

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Wow, spinning it again I realized that "E.B." is that SMOKIN' trio track on "The World of C.T."! I love that track! Strange I didn't recognize it... it's all about the labelling... I even played "E.B." when I did a five-part radio programme on Taylor's music! :wacko:

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Wow, spinning it again I realized that "E.B." is that SMOKIN' trio track on "The World of C.T."! I love that track! Strange I didn't recognize it... it's all about the labelling... I even played "E.B." when I did a five-part radio programme on Taylor's music! :wacko:

Glad you agree. Now I can't wait to find out who's the player and possible tune thief on your track 10. ;)

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Given all the "warnings," I probably shouldn't hazard any guesses and just comment on the music. Fine by me, 'cause unless I recognize a tune I actually own I pretty much suck at identifying specific players (with only a few exceptions). That said, let me just make a general comment that all of the music I've heard so far on these discs is pretty damn fine. The BFT covers a lot of styles - and that's just the way I like it!

Without further ado...

1. “Everything Happens To Me?” Lovely, absolutely lovely piece. Breathy sax – late Bean? Likely not such an obvious choice…

2. Hot…

3. Brief…

4. “What is This Thing Called Love?”

5. Sounds familiar. Lionel Hampton?

6. Also sounds familiar, but nothing I can place at the moment. Finally, though, something long enough to sink one’s teeth into.

7. “WITTCL,” obviously. Not sure the vocalist, though not one of the (my) usual suspects.

8. “Whisper Not,” with accordion and a decidedly Parisian sound. Perhaps from that dang Jazz in Paris disc that I can’t seem to get my hands on. ;)

9. Nice track. Both hot and cool elements.

10. A bit more "out" than the other tracks, but not objectionably so. ;) Sounds Cecil Taylor-ish to me, and if so it would probably rank as some of the better/easier CT that Ive heard - I stiill can't get into him too deeply.

11. Some (almost) boogie-woogie. Nice! I sort of recognize the tune, but frankly I get a lot of these tunes mixed up.

12. Like the droning bass underneath the soprano (?) in the opening. Got that Coltrane-ish modal thing going, but I'd guess Pharoah Sanders. I really, really like this sort of passionate, slightly-out there playing. There's something almost primitive about it that either reaches deep into my soul or has me running from the room. This one's the former. :D

13. Also rather out there – two saxes. Braxton is one? The "squawking" duck style of playing is not really my cuppa, but I’m appreciating this sort of stuff more and more these days. I like this one better once the bass comes in with authority, but then it gets a little too cacophonous for me at the end.

14. Ahh... back to earth with some loveliness. The opening sounds understated on the surface, but there's an air of menace underneath that gives it great depth to me. I'm curious to know who these cats are.

15. Very nice! Great arrangement.

16. "Hey, you got your avant-garde in my big band." "No, you got your big band in my avant-garde." Either way, yummy.

17. I know this too. Without looking, "Rambler" from the Ginger Baker/Haden/Frizell album. On no - a live version! ;)

18. Duke, of course. And a "thank you" to you too, Flurin!

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Thanks, your royal highness, for this exqusite selection! Take my bows!

The usual disclaimers apply.

Track 1: Beautiful rendition of "Old Folks", very informal, like in a small club. Reminds me of the scene with Ben Webster (is this him?) playing in a café in the film "Quiet Days in Clichy" (the older one with the guy who looked like Henry Miller). Really very nice, full of tenderness. A gem!

Track 2: Fletcher Henderson? Early Ellington? I let others do the identifying Have a lot of their works but too little time to listen. Like it. Is this from a movie due to the fade-in and the shortness?

Track 3: Same band? Is this Hawk? I could be totally wrong ...

Track 4: "I'm in the mood for love". Same tenor? Some rare stuff. Hawk again? In spite of all the wobbling, a great rendition.

Track 5: Rather stiff version of "Mop Mop" - the ryhthm here lacks the elasticity, the subtle off-beat phrasing of the versions I have. Thumb down Early Hamp? Heavy metal doorbells. When I hear this I really start appreciating Red Norvo's relative elegance compared to this hard-hitter. Very stiff swing feel throughout. A white band ;)? Oh, and that corny vibrato in the last note of the trumpet ... (shudder).

Track 6: Blessed relief, only that I'm sure I have this somewhere or know the tune but cannot name it. These players all sound familiar, especially the trumpet, but I can't put my finger on it. Something to kick my ass for after I read what it is ... Sounds a lot like a Horace Silver tune, but the pianist is not Horace.

Track 7: If king ubu could assign the post of a court singer, it would be this lady! Indeed a very rare item, if one has a look into her discography. Well, there is an early single on Roost and an obscure Atco LP .... Y'all know who this is, don't ya?

Track 8: Accordion, and a very good practioner, of all things! Too virtuoso to be Mat Mathews. Art Van Damme? I have to admit I never heard him. Very good. Like it. He swings! Too many versions of "Whisper Not" to search AMG ...

Track 9: "When will the blues leave" - too sober for me - I don't like it when people play Ornette's or Monk's tunes like it was bebop with chord changes. This style belies the modernity of the music, pulls it back into some earler style. They are all good players, and I wouldn't complain if they played a Parker tune, but for an Ornette tune this is as bad as Wynton playing Jelly Roll.

Track 10: Can't identify these players, but appreciate the consequence they apply to their playing - when I hear stuff like this I always ask myself if they really can control their individual playing and interaction at this pace or is at least part of this random utterings? Don't want to sound too negative, though - maybe I'm just not in the mood for this. It's good, and I like it a lot better than much of what I've heard in this style.

More to follow - I won't peek until then!

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Wow, spinning it again I realized that "E.B." is that SMOKIN' trio track on "The World of C.T."! I love that track! Strange I didn't recognize it... it's all about the labelling... I even played "E.B." when I did a five-part radio programme on Taylor's music!  :wacko:

Glad you agree. Now I can't wait to find out who's the player and possible tune thief on your track 10. ;)

Checked the Taylor "E.B." out again, back-to-back with #10 on my BFT disc - two great ones! The similarity is indeed too striking to believe that happened by accident... Though there isn't much of a real "composition" here, but rather one motive and then a few rhythmic figures. Btw: the drummer on my disc has much more nuance, but then... I can't say too much now!

And RDK: your last post had me all :lol: last night!

I wonder, has no one got any retro-objections against some strangeties on the bogaloo track? ;)

Then: the percussion instrument on #12 is definitely not a tabla - Mike, can you help? Sounds like some arabian frame drums to me, but I'm not at all an expert (tablas I own myself, though...).

ubu

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Ubu,

I'll try to get my thoughts together and post them later on today. I'm fairly certain I won't be able to identify a single track but I've really enjoyed listening to your selections. We had disc #1 playing during dinner last night and my wife was really enjoying the music, too.

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I'm only up to track 15 of disc 1, but I think I'd better post something now before the notes I've been making while listening become undecipherable. Besides, I'm getting mighty curious about what other people are saying and want to start reading the thread.

I just got the discs yesterday, as the Ornette Coleman birthday marathon was starting on WKCR, so I wound up listening to disc 1 on the bus to and from work. Leaves a lot to be desired acoustically but it's a decent environment for concentrating on the music. And what a lot of it there is! Terrific variety.

I've got my notes in front of me and the disc is playing now. First reactions:

1. Ben Webster. Old Folks. Sounds like unaccustomed backing. A local rhythm section at a club in Europe? Always happy to hear that beautiful tone.

2, 3, and 4. All sound like Hawk. 2 and 4 (I'm in the mood for love) sound as if they come from his time in Europe in the 30s. I recognize 3 but can't summon up the name -- I've heard it often enough that I want to say it's Fletcher Henderson, but maybe (guessing a theme here) it's Hawk with a band in England.

5. This one (Mop Mop) might fit the theme of U.S. performer in Europe. This version is kind of goofy and doesn't sound like any I've heard come out of the U.S. in the 40s. It's in a different place along the swing-to-bop continuum. In fact, it almost seems as if each musician is in a different place. Not at all cohesive. For sure it's not Howard McGhee.

6. This one kills the theme, I think. I have no guesses and no comments except that I find myself tuning into the rhythm section (this track is playing now), as I did on the first listen. No complaints about the front line, but I would have been happy with just the piano, bass and drums.

7. Uh-oh, a vocal, probably from the 50s, and it's not someone out of the swing era. Puts me in unfamiliar territory, although the voice itself is not unfamiliar. It's a treatment that might come from Anita O'Day, but I'm pretty sure that's not who it is. Could be Helen Merrill, although I'm not certain.

8. Accordion plays Whisper Not. I'm an accordion ignoramus (and will probably stay one), so no guesses. This has a nice swing to it.

9. I've been listening to Ornette for the better part of a day now (and a fine part it was!), so it's a little hard to get in the groove with a different sort of version of When Will the Blues Leave.

10. Sounds a bit like early Cecil Taylor. Don't think it's he, though. I like the energy and off-centered-ness. Could this be Jean-Michel Pilc? I don't have any of his albums (something that I ought to remedy). Have heard a few cuts on the radio and this track puts me in mind of them.

11. no notes for this one. Listening again -- bouncy. I'll leave it at that.

12. Lead-in drone is captivating. Expected it to melt into an 'aum' chant, but the sax instead is equally fitting. Quickly moves into sounding like a muezzin call and then evokes all sorts of exotic images. Could this be Rudresh Mahanthappa? As with Pilc, I don't have any albums but have liked the few cuts of his I've heard.

13. Great segue here. I like the sax 'conversation' and the way it resolves itself. This would be great breakfast music for a chilly, rainy winter morning. Who is this?! Is Pharoah one of the wild birds?

14. Nice solid piano trio. Could this be Kenny Werner?

15. This is as far as I've gotten. As soon as this track started playing, I was ready to turn off my critical faculties and just relax. Same thing happened again on second listen. Next time I ought to start with this track.

I did, however, skip to #18 to see what would be 10 seconds long. Duke, of course.

Well, Your Excellency, this is a fascinating collection, with plenty of new delights. I'm eager to get on to disc 2. Thanks so much. <insert applause smilies here :) >

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