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BFT #24 - Discussion (Disc 1)


king ubu

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Some very nice comments, indigo! Thanks!

Also thanks to Mike and RDK! I immensely enjoy this thread (usually I'm not allowed to read it and till I am allowed - after having posted my guesses - the party's almost over... now this time it's MY party for a change, and I do enjoy it :) )

That "Mop Mop" is indeed goofy! It closed a gap in the "theme" of this disc (no real theme on discs 2, btw), that being the main reason it's here. I have listened to the discs all day yesterday (starting to type up answers and collecting links, photos etc for the anwers threads) and this track indeed is somewhat funny. The Ornette cover is much better, but has a similar off-the-mark-ness to it, I think (Mike is onto something, in that respect).

ubu

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A few more guesses (sorry for dropping them so scattered, but I´m picking here and there when I have time to listen properly and check my collection):

Track 1:

Late Frog (late 60´s or early 70´s probably) doing a favorite of his "Old folks". His tone of that era is simply wonderful, so breathy...

[After some checking I realize it´s included in the same compilation I mentioned in my first post in this thread... oh, there was REAL jazz in Switzerland during those years ;) ]

Track 4

The father of tenor saxophone (as he was called), "I´m in the mood for love". Obviously previous to his famous version in the 40´s. I´d guess this was played during his European years (34-39), and the rest of the group is not at the same level. Correct me if I´m wrong, but the tone, the phrasing, the mood, everything in his playing is preceeding and somehow announcing what would came in 1939 (all that "En cuerpo y alma", I mean).

After some checking:

-this one´s not included in the Timeless release "CH in Europe" that covers about half of his recorded production of that era.

-ooooops, THIS IS ALSO INCLUDED IN THE ABOVE MENTIONED COMPILATION. Geneva, 1936. Definitely, I ought to have that one !!!

As for Tracks 2 and 4, I´d say it´s also Hawk (track 3 probably with Fletcher Henderson).

[EDIT: obviously I mean "Tracks 2 and 3, I´d say...]

More to come

Edited by EKE BBB
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Okay here's my remaining commentary on disc 1 - I have to admit I'm in my critical mood, nevertheless I enjoy listening to this disc a lot!

Track 11: Booglaoo me some, king! Definitely a Hohner Electra piano (whose sound I like a lot), and a Varitone sax, most likely a 1970's item. The theme is clearly Horace Silver inspired. Too short to evaluate this!

Track 12: Bowed chordal bass drone and sax. Somewhat careless darabukka drumming. These things are hard to play with a good round sound. Needs very good control of your finger position to get a clean full deep tone. I prefer a more elegant way of playing these drums. Of course, a nice experiment. Sounds like he plays the drum holding it between his knees like an African Jenbe drum, instead of placing it on his left upper thigh with the head pointing towards the audience, which is the traditional way and involves a much more intricate technique. Don't like the sax player somehow. Sorry.

Track 13: Again the random creation question pops up in my mind. This kind of emotionally charged expression is not my taste. Take your time, leave some space in the music ... Just me

of course, I do not get their message, and that's my fault.

Track 14: Now that's more to my taste, the way it starts. I like this subdued funkified style. European players? The bassist sounds European to me. Would like to hear more of them. Some Vernell Fournier influence in the drums, the famous Poinciana pattern, but Fournier had more groove - and Crosby and Jamal complemented each other, where the players here play besides each other. Nice but not a classic. Sometimes the drummer almost kills the groove with his loose variations. All three are too anxious to say their thing. Good players, but I prefer more tightly knit units and more bottom in the bass - he should try and really hold his low notes. Well, the audience liked it, and that's what counts.

Track 15: Nice writing, I like the way he(?) gradually adds the instruments instead of throwing them all in at once. I love bass clarinet in the ensemble. Nice trombone solo, its fragility, like the mood of the piece. Saxist is noodling a little too much for my taste, but he knows what he wants to say. I will never like the sound of bass pickups. Overall, nice. Who is this?

Track 16: Typically European take on funky patterns, intellectuallized, including a Rhodes piano, sax writing sounds like Rahsaan gone section, some crime time influence, in 7/4 and wailing. I like this kind of stuff. They are losing the groove during the a capella sax passage. Trumpet solo is not up to the quality of the writing to these ears. Same for the sax solo. Strange harmonic conception in the trombone solo. But the theme I really like. The cowbell in the out chorus is superfluous. Much better writing than soloing here. Same group as 15?

Track 17: Frisell? Or someone influenced by him. Ornettish soloing. What else did they play?

Track 18: :g You're welcome, king!

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Track 18

Hey, Flurin, do you want us to identify voices? This one was easy, eh?

The Duke in person thanks us for the wonderful way we´ve inspired them and tell us all the kids in the band have been raving about how beautiful we are

B-)

Hey, he didn't mean you... ever heard of a thing called pluralist majestatis? Now cringe! :g

king ubu :w

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More great comments, Mike! Not a varitone (I know - will post about it in the anwers), but something that ends up producing similar sounds on #11. Also I thought that electric piano was a Wurlitzer, will have to check back if I find something... did so: DUH! The guy is listed as playing piano!!! Oh well...

Thanks for identifying the Darbuka (that is arabian, yes? So my remark further up is not completely wrong...)!

#15 is a completely different band than #16 (different circles of guys involved, alltogether).

I do understand your remarks on the weakness of the solos on #16. I saw the band live, have the concert recording I took this cut from, and have the studio album, too. The live concert was stunning, a wall of sound, and tons of wierdo grooves that really wanted to make you dance (which is usually the last thing I want to do...), but you would have to be Thelonious to know just HOW to dance to those tunes... There is very little space and room to breath in this music, though, which started troubling me a bit after 45 minutes or so (lucky enough they just played on set, thus in the end it was still a great night). Now that band/guy (for it's one guy who leads it) is all about writing and pulling very difficult and tricky stuff in a way that makes it sound oh so easy. Also the rhythm section is extremely tight - I'm particularly fond of the bassist.

The band on #17 also played, well let me see... "I Pity the Poor Immigrant"?

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I'm pretty sure that's a Hohner Electra piano - especially if it's a European band, Wurlitzers were imports and damn expensive, thus rarely found in Europe. Gordon Beck coaxed a beautiful sound out of his Hohner Electra.

Darbukkas or darabukkas are found in all Arabian countries as well as Turkey (where there are sometimes called dumbek or dümbeg) - the traditional drums were made from clay:

Darabukka_ICO.JPGis the type for "classical" music

folkloric instruments may look like this:p_darabukka.jpg

This is the traditional way of holding and playing the drum (please note that this is a left-handed player or the pic was reversed):

tabla.jpg

Modern instruments are made from brass:

darabuka.jpg

or from aluminum (the cheaper ones):

darabukka.jpg

Professional drums for belly dance accompanists look like this:

darbuka1.jpg

They are made from some metal alloy and covered with artificial leather.

To confuse things, the Egyptians call this drum a tabla or tablah (which is the Arabic generic term for drum).

There are many shapes and sizes, as a picture search for drabukka, darabuka, tablah, dumbek or any other spelling will show.

The Persian Tombak or Zarb also belongs to this family of drums, but its playing technique is much more elaborate.

darbuka3.jpg

(This drum was not quite correctly labelled a Persian darbukka!)

Edited by mikeweil
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Thanks a lot, Mike! So I have to apologize to the poster who identified this as "tabla" in case he did mean one of the pictured instruments, and not the indian instrument, which looks like this:

tabla.gif

On the electric piano: one of the guys involved was sort of an electronics pioneer in Europe, and had several distribution deals, so... (he tells some stories on his website about how he, being the first to buy those instruments from the US manufacterers, was always asked to take up distribution deals, too).

Now I myself am no expert in identifying electric pianos (though I do like those vintage ones a lot), so your ears may just be right, anyway!

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The band on #17 also played, well let me see... "I Pity the Poor Immigrant"?

This isn't them, of course, but exploring this clue led me to this disc I just have to get...

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&t...mi8m968ojep1~T1

While I've been know to be wrong before (and often :w ), I'm still sticking to my original guess that this trio is Ginger Baker, Charlie Haden, and Bill Frizzell ....

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So I have to apologize to the poster who identified this as "tabla" in case he did mean one of the pictured instruments, and not the indian instrument

It's gracious you interpret his identification of the drum to his advantage, but I'm sure he was talking about the Indian instrument you pictured - laymen rarely know that Egyptian use of the word unless they listen to belly dance music, which is rare among jazz fans ^_^ .

This nice picture shows all the drums an Egyptian might call a "tablah":

tablah.jpg

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On the electric piano: one of the guys involved was sort of an electronics pioneer in Europe, and had several distribution deals, so... (he tells some stories on his website about how he, being the first to buy those instruments from the US manufacterers, was always asked to take up distribution deals, too).

Are his initials W.D.?

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On the electric piano: one of the guys involved was sort of an electronics pioneer in Europe, and had several distribution deals, so... (he tells some stories on his website about how he, being the first to buy those instruments from the US manufacterers, was always asked to take up distribution deals, too).

Are his initials W.D.?

No! And it's not the keyboard, btw! Who did you mean with W.D.?

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The band on #17 also played, well let me see... "I Pity the Poor Immigrant"?

This isn't them, of course, but exploring this clue led me to this disc I just have to get...

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&t...mi8m968ojep1~T1

While I've been know to be wrong before (and often :w ), I'm still sticking to my original guess that this trio is Ginger Baker, Charlie Haden, and Bill Frizzell ....

That disc sounds great, indeed! And I'm a big Dylan fan, too...

On Frisell: no, sorry! I guess I would have hinted some or posted some :tup if it was him... those guys are way too obscure for anyone to i/d them, I think. I quite like them, though!

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On Frisell: no, sorry! I guess I would have hinted some or posted some :tup if it was him... those guys are way too obscure for anyone to i/d them, I think. I quite like them, though!

Christy Doran? Although he's not obscure.

No - it's a young guy!

What about W.D.? Who where you thinking about?

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A most enjoyable listen, and the usual cluelessness is proudly on display!

1. Ah, that’s gotta be Ben Webster. Sounds kinda late in his career, maybe something from Denmark. Wish I knew who that piano player was. I’d guess Jimmy Rowles, just because he truly knew how to accompany the great man!

2. I couldn’t even begin to fathom a guess, so limited is my knowledge of swing music that isn’t Basie or Benny!

3. Like I said before...... but I sure dig ‘em! I’m guessing these two tracks are the same band from the same recording, but that’s all I’d be comfortable guessing. No real soloists jump out at me.

4. Different band, same cluelessness! Sorry again, I’m drawing a blank! Plus, these tracks are so short I can barely process them! Not that it would help if they were any longer! :w

5. I’m gonna take a wild guess here and say Lionel Hampton with Illinois Jacquet, maybe Roy Eldridge on trumpet. Is that an electric guitar I barely hear? No clue as to who the piano player is. Nice and swingin’ though! :tup

6. Ah hah! I know this tune! Well, the version I know is the Donald Adams/Pepper Bryd version from the Cat (Shatner) Walk. Haven’t a clue who’s doing this version though. It’s nice; kinda wish I didn’t have the Byrd/Adams version to compare it to so I could take it on its own merits.

7. Abbey Lincoln? With Blakey in the back there? I love this kind of singing, no effects, just plain simplicity!

8. This track blew me away, and I’m not ashamed to admit that I was drawn into how the accordion player was able to comp like a brass section all the while soloing with the other hand. I mean, this guy sounds like a one-man Benny Golson arrangement! Yes, I know it’s “Whisper Not,” but I just can’t get over how GOOD this sounds; how much it SWINGS! Tell me who this is NOW!!! Hell, I even applauded when it was over!

9. Sounds like a Silver-type group/groove! Man, these are going by faster than I can come up with barely-educated guesses! This disc flows smoother than a dark German bier!

10. Early Andrew Hill maybe? Even sounds like Tony Williams on the drums! No wait, I think it’s early Cecil Taylor.

11. Sounds like something from the late 60’s or early 70’s. I don’t know: Clifford Jordan and Blue Mitchell? I honestly have no clue! But I love that beat! Could be Idris Muhammad on drums!

12. Uhhhhh, thanks but no. I like the occasional drone, but this just seemed to stand still for five minutes!

13. Ehhhh, too free for me! NEXT!

14. I like this! Reminds me of Duke Pearson.

15. Hmmmm; I don’t know much about trombone players, and I can’t keep guessing J.J. every time I hear one. So I’ll guess Lawrence Brown. I mean, I’m just grabbing names outta thin air. I have no clue! But I like it. Naw, wait; this sounds too recent. That sounds like Lovano on tenor. Maybe that’s Paul Motian on drums as well, that sounds like his kind of sensitive accompaniment. No clue, but can’t wait to find out!

16. I don’t know. This BFT, while enjoyable, is wearing me out! Once again, I have no clue! Maybe the George Gruntz Big Band?

17. Sounds like Bill Frisell?

18. Duke takes us out for a break! And thank God, I need a break! My brain hurts; but in a good way!

Man, I think I hit a new low in cluelessness. Now to see how everyone else is doing!

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6. Ah hah! I know this tune! Well, the version I know is the Donald Adams/Pepper Bryd version from the Cat (Shatner) Walk.

Once I was able to get up off the floor, I realized that this was the version I was familiar with (haven't checked to make sure, but Big Al knows his hard bop history, so I'm going along with it).

8. This track blew me away, and I’m not ashamed to admit that I was drawn into how the accordion player was able to comp like a brass section all the while soloing with the other hand. I mean, this guy sounds like a one-man Benny Golson arrangement! Yes, I know it’s “Whisper Not,” but I just can’t get over how GOOD this sounds; how much it SWINGS! Tell me who this is NOW!!! Hell, I even applauded when it was over!

:lol: Back to the floor...

WAIT- did you really applaud when it was over? :mellow: (hey, I'm the gullible type, okay?)

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6. Ah hah! I know this tune! Well, the version I know is the Donald Adams/Pepper Bryd version from the Cat (Shatner) Walk.

Once I was able to get up off the floor, I realized that this was the version I was familiar with (haven't checked to make sure, but Big Al knows his hard bop history, so I'm going along with it).

8. This track blew me away, and I’m not ashamed to admit that I was drawn into how the accordion player was able to comp like a brass section all the while soloing with the other hand. I mean, this guy sounds like a one-man Benny Golson arrangement! Yes, I know it’s “Whisper Not,” but I just can’t get over how GOOD this sounds; how much it SWINGS! Tell me who this is NOW!!! Hell, I even applauded when it was over!

:lol: Back to the floor...

WAIT- did you really applaud when it was over? :mellow: (hey, I'm the gullible type, okay?)

:lol::lol::lol: Yes, I really did applaud! It wasn't too difficult, as the traffic I was in was at a stand-still, so taking my hands off the steering wheel didn't endanger anyone (unlike the times I turn my steering wheel into my own private drum set and I become the Art Blakey of I-20!).

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6. Ah hah! I know this tune! Well, the version I know is the Donald Adams/Pepper Bryd version from the Cat (Shatner) Walk. Haven’t a clue who’s doing this version though. It’s nice; kinda wish I didn’t have the Byrd/Adams version to compare it to so I could take it on its own merits.

Duh! Al, you nailed that tune, and stopped me scratching my head to the bone to remember where I knew it from!

What a shame - my favourite Byrd album - but haven't listened to it in years, and ubu's version is not this one, of course.

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You guys love that accordion track, he? Heheheheh!

I love it very very much, it always beats me up again, even on repeated listens!

***

The king is yet without the Byrd/Adams Mosaic (just be sure to tell me in time when it starts running low), but I have that tune elsewhere (at least I believe, I think it's event he title track there) on a Byrd album.

The pianist has some serious fun here, but I love the horns a lot, as well. How about the drummer... :w

Al: I'm glad you enjoyed your listen! I do realize it's pretty hard to have a go at all of this disc in one go, but I had kind of a goal here (less so on disc 2, and I think disc 2 is easier to take, too, but then one looses concentration, anyway, even if it's easier...).

Again thank for some wonnerful thoughts on the music, and :tup on the Byrd track ("Hush" is the title, for all of those too lazy to google and/or without that album).

I am aware (and that's of course part of the story) that even though some of the music IS familiar, you won't be able to pin down many of the artists, but I enjoy reading your comments a lot!

Is it time for a write up on what has been identified so far, or still too early? I'd rather wait a bit, for there might be some lurkers here who haven't posted yet...

ubu

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The king is yet without the Byrd/Adams Mosaic (just be sure to tell me in time when it starts running low), but I have that tune elsewhere (at least I believe, I think it's event he title track there) on a Byrd album.

That was a Duke Pearson album for Jazzline with a two trumpet frontline (Byrd and Johnny Coles) reissued under Byrd's name on Black Lion.

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The king is yet without the Byrd/Adams Mosaic (just be sure to tell me in time when it starts running low), but I have that tune elsewhere (at least I believe, I think it's event he title track there) on a Byrd album.

That was a Duke Pearson album for Jazzline with a two trumpet frontline (Byrd and Johnny Coles) reissued under Byrd's name on Black Lion.

Exactly, that one! Coles of course is waaaaay better there...

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