BFT #24 - Discussion (Disc 2)

[RDK]

Better late than never....

Disc 2

1. Very old school but not “old” if you know what I mean. This is too “dixieland-meets-marching band” for me to listen to often, but how can such stuff not make you kick up your feet and smile. Delightful!

2. “ah shit…”

3. “Sunny Side of the Street.” Sure sounds like Johnny Hodges to me – or someone trying very hard to sound like him. Absolutely lovely tone, and such a sexy, languid pace. Playing this for my wife should get me some nookie at least. The vocal is actually a bit surprising – wasn’t expecting that. A bit Armstrong-ish, a bit Teagarden-ish, but obviously neither. Whatever – I love this track!

4. Jumpin’ tune – I like it. No idea though.

5. Okay, but doesn’t really do it for me. Nice interlude, though…

6. “Basin St. Blues” Same vocalist as track 3? Fun, but goes on a bit too long for me, which takes it into parody territory. Bet it would be a blast to see this group live.

7. “Mood Indigo” played very slowly and drunkenly? I sorta kinda dig this one, but it’s not what I’d use to turn a newbie onto Ellington. Hmmm. Then it goes on far too long and I no longer know what it is…

8. This is better. Another Ellington tune, I think, but the title escapes me (“Blood Count?” – which would make it Strayhorn). Nice enough and a lovely sax tone, but almost a little too genteel for my tastes. The (electric?) piano adds to the mood. Again, this one goes on too long…

9. More Ellington! Earlier tune, but I forget the title. Okay.

10. Hokey organ opening, but that’s the worst part of this cookin’ rendition of a great Sinatra tune. Really like this around four to five minutes in.

11. “Whisper Not” again. Lovely version (is there a bad one?).

12. “Prelude to a Kiss?” Sparse but lovely version – sax, bass, and very quiet drums – but I won’t even hazard a guess as to who…

13.

14. Okay. Very conventional after what came before…

[RDK]

Y'know, I always get "Body and Soul" wrong. Every single time. I don't know what it is about it. It's only one of the most famous songs of all time. I've even seen the damn movie...!

[mikeweil]

Saw Mike's posts. I was gonna say Mangelsdorff, honest, but as my only exposure came via BFT couw, thought his tone was more of the straight up variety. You guys are good, how'd he pick Elvin on that?

There should be one advantage of trying tro play these damn drums yourselves, eh?

It is some of the details in the phrasing in his accompaniment. There are a lot of minutely diverging possibilities of rhythmically placing a stroke between straight and triplet feel, and in ballad tempo you can study these like under a magnifying glass. The great drummers all phrase differently on ballads.

Like when Elvin plays two strokes on the snare and two on the kick drum on "and 4 and 1" - nobody does that like him.

[JSngry]

Nearly 3 AM here, perfect time for fruitless guessing...

As usual, haven't looked, blahblahblahblahblah.

TRACK ONE - Revivalist, I guess. "High Society", I think. Good enough to be good, not anything else, which is good, right? And brief, which is also good, at least for this.

TRACK TWO - Jacquet curses?

TRACK THREE - Now THAT'S a tempo! HELL yeah! Vocal seems to be a really aged Hamp his ownself. Alto ain't Hodges, but is in the style. Maybe Marshall Royal, Bobby Plater, or possibly even Illinois. Great band, great writing. It's music for old folks, and the more old I get, the more I can feel it. I've always been old in some ways, but now that it's getting to be the real deal, hey, bring it on. These guys are probably all dead now, but that's cool, so will I be, some day. This is a favorite cut. Hey-bob-a-rebop indeed, no matter how slowly!

TRACK FOUR - "For Dancers Only", Sy Oliver's great chart for Lunceford. This was also in Harry James' book iirc, and the sound of the band here is closer to James' 50s and beyond than Lunceford, but that ain't Willie Smith on alto, nor James on trumpet. No clue, but good stuff. The band's together and plays the arrangement appropriately, which is becoming increasingly rare these days. Another good one.

TRACK FIVE - Oh geez, some later Ellington, but the exact title eludes me. Maybe something from "The River"? Nah, that wasn't full band...But something of that vintage, anyway. What is there to say? Duke was the shit, and still is. The rest of us are just trying...

TRACK SIX - The unmistakable sounds of the great Ray Nance in his native habitat. See above about that. What I'd love more than almost anything is for somebody to unearth some recordings of the tour that Duke made with a quartet with Nance, him, bass and drums. You'd think that somebody would have something, but if they do, I've not heard about it. Yeah, Procope, what a fine voice he was. This is the kind of thing that they'd do on dance dates - play a popular warhorse, give the rest of the band a breather, not a chart in sight, no need. Brown gets in, sounds like Terry's coming in for some action as well. Everybody's happy, and those not involved could go take care of whatever business they had to take care of. Life on a steadily working band, ain't nothing like it.

TRACK SEVEN - Ray Anderson? Don't usually associate him w/the multiphonics, that's Mangelsdorff's trademark, but he's capable, that's for sure. Kind of a nifty take-off on Rahsaan's take of the same tune. Anderson sometimes goes overboard, and comes close here, but I'd rather hear him go too far than somebody else not go far enough. Digging the bassist's lines very much, the solo less so, but just by a little. His time is so bassy, and then he goes all high-end on the solo, totally different feel too, not like Mingus, whose playing went efverywhere, but in service of a unified vison. Seems to betray an inorganic concept to me, but then again, that's the world in which we live. Life on the run does that to a person, I suppose. On the whole, this is not too deep a cut, gets a little too clowny, but there's any number of worse things that can happen in music than that, far more than better. The soprano player's in on the joke, too, so that helps.

TRACK EIGHT - Hmmm..."Blood Count".........................................

Not too many tunes I thik should be left alone, but this is one of them. The combined circumstances of its creation and its original presentation are so uniwue and so powerful that anything else is bound to be an anti-climax. Getz came close, but close ain't there...

Anyway, this is good, considering. Consideration is given to the melody, tahnk god, and the arrangement doesn't rush matters. Tenorist's tone is reminiscent of Jimmy Heath in the head, but many elements of the soloing suggest a much younger player. Pianist just doesn't...ah, never mind. I don't want to hear this tune done by anybody but Hodges w/Duke. Simple as that. Anything/anybody else is just gonna get it wrong. These folks mean well and do good, but it doesn't matter. Sorry.

TRACK NINE - "KoKo" (certainly an ongoing Ellingtonia theme!). Now this one is pretty interesting. Are there two pianists? Sometimes the soloing is kinda "generic", but overall, the arrangement holds interest, stays within itself and relates to the orchestral version rather nicely. Replay factor is high.

TRACK TEN - Ok, I'm guessing Jimmy Smith from some live thing, but hell if I know for sure. That guitarist, who the hell is that? To the manner born, it sounds like to me. When you play for a blues crowd, sometimes when the groove gets really deep, people will shout out "TAKE YOUR TIME!" at the beginning of a solo, which means that they're in a good zone and want you to stay there with them, that there's no rush to get it over with, so, yeah, take your time to do what it is you're about to do. This cat doesn't have too may choruses, but he takes his time, and I DIG that. He sets up the organ solo perfectly that way, and the organis does indeed fly it to the moon, and then home again. I like space, I like pacing, I like contrast, I like this.

TRACK ELEVEN - Oh where oh where did the treble go? Left on somebody's tape heads I suppose... In a BFT filled with mysteries, this is perhaps the mist mysterious cut of all. On the head, the tenor sounds very much like latter-day Golson, and on into the solo. But then, little by little, it starts to sound more and more like a highly restrained Archie Shepp! Must be a Philly thing...

No matter - I dig the tone, I dig the lines, and I dig the drummer. Hell, I dig the whole thing, it's the real deal, even if the pianist doesn't cop as deep a groove as the tenorist. That drummer's got his/her back and keeps him from stiffening up and rushing like he/she constantly threatens to do, even thought the bassist seems to have no opinion regarding the matter one way or the other. That's what a real drummer can do for you!

And face it folks - "Whisper Not" sounds a helluva lot better on tenor than it does on accordion.

TRACK TWELVE - Oh my, more treble loss! This makes for a nice companion to the Ben "Old Folks". Do idea who this is, but we're talking about a very controlled (in the good sense) player here, one who has everything under control in the fingers, and more importantly, in the head. No spewing, no gratuitousness, just play the music. The lack of a readily identifiable tone (unless it was left behind on the cassette machine...) bothers me a little, but is more than compensated for by the improvising, which is totally bullshit free, even with the quoting. Again, time is being taken by all. A lesson, that is.

TRACK THIRTEEN - Elvin, right?

TRACK FOURTEEN - "Ja-Da". I was thinking Hodges until the last few choruses, when the riffing make me rethink into not knowing, as has been the norm for this BFT, albeit delightfully so. There's another verse tothat song, don't know if it's "official" or not, but it's something about "She hadda, she hadda, she hadda hadda wooden leg" and her boyfriend getting splinters. I kid you not.

Hey, a MOST interesting collection, one with more mysteries than solutions for me, but very pleasnat mysteries. And the "bonus" disc is about as welcome as welcome can be!

[JSngry]

Post-post comments:

5's from "Thunder", eh? So THAT'S what it sounds like w/o scratches! But geez, that's some advanced writing, even for Duke/Strayhorn!

6 - Butter, not Brown. My bad.

7 - Mangelsdorf, a-HA! Never would have gotten Elvin, though, can't hear him well enough. Or maybe I just wasn't listening closely enough.

11 is Golson, then. It figures. But it's interesting to hear how he's looped back some Shepp into his thing, a Philly continuum of sorts. And upon further review, it seems to be the bassist, not the pianist, who's threatening to mess up the groove. Apologies to the ivory.

12 - sounds like Joe, Wayne, & Warne rolled into one. Usually when I hear this much Joe in a tone w/o it being imitative, I go to Lovano for a guess, and I'm usually right, but don't know if I would be here. If it is, it's some of the very best playing of his I've ever heard. But I don't think that this is Lovano. But it could be. How's that for certainty?

14 - taking your, uh, "hint" , I'm prepared to offer the names of Glyn Paque & Earl Fouche into nomination as the altoist and let the process of elimination take care of the rest. If that fails, Capt. John Handy gets the nomination, but recording quality makes me skeptical.

[king ubu]

Not Captain Joe Handy, not Joe Lovano... I guess #12 should be a big surprise, guys!

Jim: on #2 (and the voices heard are heard performing, too, so... guess what, you were close, indeed!)

On "Blood Count" - I am not even sure I have any version of it with Johnny Hodges, neither do I know Getz' take (but I'm aware that he did a highly regarded version). I wanted to present the tenor player to you all, but I guess I chose the wrong track...

ubu

[Big Al]

Y'al better start the "answer" thread without me. I've got some guesses started, but haven't had time to finish them. Maybe by the end of the weekend, but I'll get there eventually!

[JSngry]

So...is 3 a Jacquet big band w/him on alto and vocals? Or is Hamp doing the vocals? That first "here comes Louis Armstrong" sounded like Hamp's voice to me, as does the "time for a little dance" (or whatever it is...); but the vocal mugging at the end of the second bridge doesn't sound like Hamp at all. I was just thinking he might have been so old by then that he temporarily went gonzo.

[king ubu]

So...is 3 a Jacquet big band w/him on alto and vocals? Or is Hamp doing the vocals? That first "here comes Louis Armstrong" sounded like Hamp's voice to me, as does the "time for a little dance" (or whatever it is...); but the vocal mugging at the end of the second bridge doesn't sound like Hamp at all. I was just thinking he might have been so old by then that he temporarily went gonzo.

No Hamp in sight

[catesta]

Sorry for being so late.

Two cds filled with some great stuff, I look forward to learning more.

1 - A catchy toe tapper, but I could not even begin a serious guess.

2 - Hell, that could be one of a bunch of folks. Arnett Cobb? Illinois Jacquet?

3 - Okay, so I'm thinking that has to be none other than Johnny Hodges, but as the tune goes on, I loose that thought. The arrangement of "On The Sunny Side Of The Street", although a slower tempo, seems very similar to Hampton's anniversary concert at Carnegie Hall in the 70's.

So, my guess is, this could be either a Hampton band or an alumni group.

The vocalist sounds like the man on track 2, so now I'm totally confused.

4 - Not sure on this. The tune sounds like Christopher Columbus. The trumpet?

Cat Anderson? Wallace Davenport? Doc Cheatham?

5 - Too short to grab a hold of.

6 - Snap! That's Ray Nance! B-) Love it, how could anyone not? It's not the whole Duke band here, it may even be minus Duke, although I'm thinkin' I hear him talking it up. Clark Terry is there. This is a real gem.

7 - Mood Indigo. Not sure I'm too fond of this version.

8 - This is Strayhorn's 'Blood Count'. I like the tenor, as a matter of fact, I'm likin' all of it.

9 - Nice. Can't name the tune, but it's done well. Two pianists? One may be Hank Jones, or maybe not.

10 - 'Fly Me To The Moon' Organist unknown to me, and I'm not so sure I care for this. Maybe it's Jimmy McGriff? Wild Bill? McDuff?

11 - This was very enjoyable. I liked it just fine. The tune seems very familair, but I can't place it.

12 - Not bad. Maybe Richie Kamuca?

13 - Probably obvious to everyone, but forst time I've ever heard the clip. Np way I could indentify.

14 - 'Ja-Da' be the tune. No real clue on the player.

[Nate Dorward]

Finally got these discs after a long postally enforced delay. So, just a quick rundown without looking at the rest of the thread....

1: Crowd noise, martial sounds..... Oh, I forget the name of this tune (“High Society”?). Hm, is this a traditionalist outfit or one of those bands like Willem Breuker’s that throw in arrangements of older stuff every so often? I don’t know.

2: Joined who? Can’t quite make it out.

3: “Sunny Side of the Street” with a Hodges-style alto & an Armstrong-style vocal: maybe a little too close to Cookie Monster territory at the end, but it’s a nice track.

4: A riff tune, I forget the name of this, though one of the riffs certainly resembles “Christopher Columbus”. The alto reminds me of Sonny Criss though I don’t think this is the kind of track he’d normally be playing on. Not my favourite kind of trumpet.

5: Ellington, this is on the Far East Suite but I forget the title. A live track. I’d have to compare the tracks but I think there’s some significant differences between this & the studio version.

6: “Basin St Blues” of course. Good solos all round. This is the first track I really like a lot.

7: This was always a feature piece for Albert Mangelsdorff & I think the multiphonic arrangement is identical to his so I’m pretty sure it’s him. I have this on an MPS 2CD compilation but I don’t think it’s the same track (recording quality/balance isn’t as good). If it ain’t him it’s Ray Anderson, but truthfully it’s a bit dull for Ray. There’s an intrusion of another instrument halfway through, so, OK, it’s definitely not the MPS track. Hm, some darned odd soprano sax here, maybe Dave Liebman but whoever it is gets such a brief look-in it’s hard to tell.

8: Handsome tenor opening. “Blood Count” so I’m immediately thinking of Getz, though it’s definitely not the version on Pure Getz. But it’s weird – I keep expecting some Getzian drama & it’s all so low-key. I dunno, am I missing something? I keep waiting for something to happen here. No idea who any of these guys are though probably I should know. Oh good, at least they doubletime it a bit when the tenor reenters. Hm, a few licks here begin to sound familiar.... & my CDR starts skipping just now.

9 -- too much skipping to listen to it

10: "Fly Me to the Moon / In Other Words" for organ trio. Hm, though it's obvious to say it I think this actually is Jimmy Smith, at least a lot of the moves sound familiar from his style. Nicely overpowering climax.

11: "Whisper Not", rather muted opening/sound. Very interesting, quirky tenor solo (suffice it to say I was reminded of Warne Marsh & Von Freeman at various points!). The pianist doesn’t interest me greatly but it’s funny to hear how the drummer takes off during the piano solo! As if everyone had been holding back during the tenor solo. No idea who this is, I don’t think it’s Golson himself.

12: yikes, an off-mike moment at the start. Nice tenor oratory at the start, a rather dark-toned “Body & Soul” it turns out to be. Rather too quiescent for my taste & it does go on for ages...... Interesting to note that at one point there’s a snippet that suggests whoever it is has heard James Clay’s version on Don Cherry’s Art Deco. No idea who anyone is.

14: "Jada". Probably I should know these guys, both sound familiar. Anyway, a nice track to end the BFT.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Nate Dorward

[Tom Storer]

Here goes nothing:

1. Contemporary version of John Philip Sousa? Not bad, and I'm sure it was fun for the audience, but despite a certain polish it's pretty forgettable.

2. Huh. Who joined Lionel Hampton in 19, uh, shit? Whoever it was, it's probably the saxophonist or the singer in the next track.

3. Stately, elegant--Benny Carter? I don't know. The Satchmo vocal interpretation is hokey but sincere. This one grew on me.

4. Another big band with alto - reminds me of the Clayton-Hamilton orchestra's version of "'T'Ain't What You Do (It's the Way That You Do It)." The screaming trumpet evokes Jon Faddis evoking whoever. Maybe the Carnegie Hall Jazz Orchestra. Nice repertory stuff.

5. A mournful start--ah, it's Duke. Late period. Nonpareil. How can you not fall in love with this music? Jimmy Hamilton on clarinet.

6. Duke again, with Ray Nance singing "Basin St. Blues." A reduced band? Sounds like Barney Bigard on clarinet, which is odd since it sounds like an older Nance. Who else in the band doubled on clarinet in the Jimmy Hamilton years? This could be from the Private Collection, and if I wasn't such a lazy bastard I'd go check. There's Clark Terry! I could listen to Duke all night--and often do, as a matter of fact.

7. "Mood Indigo" by a modernist group, perhaps led by the trombonist. Very affecting--these guys are feeling it. The solos go on a little bit, though, and the trombonist has a great schtick but it *is* a schtick here; on the other hand this was live, and the recording can't show us the energy and the concentration in the room. Given the applause, they judged it right. The bass solo is a slight let-down, not because of the bassist but because the drummer is useless behind him. Tchick, ka-tchick, it's mechanical, it plods--but again, maybe it's louder in the recorded mix than it was as it reached the ears of the audience. I'd love to hear the rest of this concert. The soprano's appearance is brief, probably just as well since he doesn't seem to have as much Duke in him as the trombonist does.

8. "Blood Count" - Hodges and Duke on "His Mother Called Him Bill" and the Getz version are tough acts to follow, but comparison is odious anyway. This version doesn't really approach those, but nor is it half bad. Pretend you don't know the original(s). I thought Lovano/Jones/Mraz/Motian, then around 3:50 the tenor plays a lick that's right out of Houston Person. So, I dunno.

9. Huh. Two pianos playing "Koko"--or is it "Jack the Bear"? Again, too lazy to go check. Nice arrangement.

10. TASTY! I'm not an aficionado of the B3 by any means, but this is pure pleasure. I love the high, sweet sound of the introduction. The whole thing swings so unaffectedly, and with such sly control. That mandolin thing the guitarist does is something else. The organist lets his hair down and it's great fun. Three cheers as well to the drummer for being just where he needs to be with the utmost taste.

11. I can't place this tenor player and it's driving me crazy because he sounds SO familiar. I'm thinking Paul Gonsalvez, Clifford Jordan... but no. I just can't put a name on him. Very lovely playing, that sound is right up my alley.

12. "Body and Soul" There's a good deal of Henderson in the mix, but this player is a lot straighter. This is a beautiful performance--virtuosic, cultivated, in exquisite taste. Somehow it manages to be self-effacing, so very tasteful is it. I enjoyed it--it's a craftsman's delight.

13. Quite right, too.

14. Bright, peppy alto and piano, then trumpet. Back to the old-time stuff, and it's always welcome. No idea who it is, but I like the slightly drunken sound of the saxophone. Based on close analysis, I believe the pianist's first name is "Pete."

[king ubu]

Time to give some BIG for Nate and Tom...

That soprano... just such a short passage and Nate gets it right!

And Tom is right on the money on the "repertory band" playing "For Dancers Only"! The guy Faddis is evoking... well, not sure he was on the original recording, but he was condictung the band that night...

On #5 - again, not Duke's band, but half of the guys are ducal. Not the soloist, though...

On "Blood Count": again I have to admit I have neither heard the original ducal take (is it on the 24 CD box? Have made my way up to where the sacred concerts begin, but not further yet), nor the Getzian classic version... so I take this as what I hear it to be, and based on that I find it awe-inspiring and masterly.

On "Body & Soul" - didn't occur me to compare it to the James Clay version, will do so, however! Thanks!

Jim has, btw, identified "Jada" correctly, only I didn't tell him really, yet

And catesta has not been given the royal track-by-track treatment, but I want to let him know that: on bro'r Jones! Now you ought to make up who the two (yup, two!) guys tinkling on are, on "KoKo"!

Enough for now! Again thanks everybody for your wonderful posts! All the kids in the band have been raving... oh wait, that's not my line

ubu

[king ubu]

And Nate: please do accept John B's offer for a replacement of Disc 2! I'd be happy if you'd have a working disc! And John will be royally refunded for taking these pains!

[mikeweil]

On "Blood Count": again I have to admit I have neither heard the original ducal take (is it on the 24 CD box?)

Disc 23, track 13 - there's a track index in the back of the booklet ....

[catesta]

All the kids in the band have been raving... oh wait, that's not my line

ubu

haha

You're killin' me.

So I guessed right on Hank Jones, hmmm......, let me give another listen here and see if I can get the second guy.

[mikeweil]

I guessed John Lewis in a post above - so it's not him, but Hank? All reet, is Tommy Flanagan the other tinkler?

[catesta]

I guessed John Lewis in a post above - so it's not him, but Hank? All reet, is Tommy Flanagan the other tinkler?

I was gonna say John Lewis because I know they did a recording together, but I can't find that they played Ko Ko.

Mike, you may be onto something with Tommy Flanagan.

What say you, ubu?

[JSngry]

On #10, I'd just like to add that although the organist is swell, the guitarist is even more sweller.

[Nate Dorward]

Glad that at least I got Liebman there--I'd figured by the time I got round to rwiting up the discs most of the i.d.-able tracks would be i.d.'d.

The Hodges solo on the original "Blood Count" is easily one of the most disquieting, raw things ever put on record.

[king ubu]

On "Blood Count": again I have to admit I have neither heard the original ducal take (is it on the 24 CD box?)

Disc 23, track 13 - there's a track index in the back of the booklet ....

Yeah, sure, I know, but you don't expect me to carry that sucker with me wherever I walk

And sorry I was confusing again, YES to Lewis and YES to Hank J. I love the two! This, as you may have noticed, is not from an official recording - but I can highly recommend "An Evening with two Grand Pianos" (Atlantic) and also, related, "Our Delights" (OJC/Galaxy, with Flanagan/Jones). Definitely keepers, both.

I see Jones/Lewis did another album together, "Piano Play House"

ubu

[mikeweil]

I see Jones/Lewis did another album together, "Piano Play House"

That was a Toshiba Direct-To-Disc LP, a rare bird, but well worth the search. A solo each, two duos, and two quartets with George Duvivier and Shelly Manne - the most swell piano duo ever

Is there more from this "unofficial" recording? They are way loose on this! I love Lewis, and his duos with Hank Jones all the more! Lewis wrote that Koko arrangement for the MJQ Ellington CD. Now let's nail the rhythm men ...

Now who's that organist, or, as the late, highly original AFN radio jazz moderator Clay Sherman used to say, the "orgler"? Wild Bill?

Edited March 22, 2005 by mikeweil

[king ubu]

I see Jones/Lewis did another album together, "Piano Play House"

That was a Toshiba Direct-To-Disc LP, a rare bird, but well worth the search. A solo each, two duos, and two quartets with George Duvivier and Shelly Manne - the most swell piano duo ever

Is there more from this "unofficial" recording? They are way loose on this! I love Lewis, and his duos with Hank Jones all the more! Lewis wrote that Koko arrangement for the MJQ Ellington CD. Now let's nail the rhythm men ...

Now who's that organist, or, as the late, highly original AFN radio jazz moderator Clay Sherman used to say, the "orgler"? Wild Bill?

Yeah, sure, nail 'em!

[Clunky]

12: Interesting to note that at one point there’s a snippet that suggests whoever it is has heard James Clay’s version on Don Cherry’s Art Deco.

I thought this too re this version of B&S- very nice reading

[king ubu]

Now who's that organist, or, as the late, highly original AFN radio jazz moderator Clay Sherman used to say, the "orgler"? Wild Bill?

You mean the "orgler" on #10?

Not sure the right name has come up already... will have to check tonight when at home!